Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[inf64]

Two videos of 7950X running the The Last Of Us @ 4K and Red Dead Redemption @ 4K (with RTX 3080):

Looks to be running at 70+fps in The Last of Us and 40+fps in RDR, amazing how the fix devs applied doubled the performance vs what it got initially.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I would argue that prosumer needing connectivity could swallow paying 24 hundred for 24 core Threadripper easily. If not, he is not a REAL PROsumer.

You already have people in this very thread who are in the market for such machines telling you that TR Pro doesn't justify its price for their needs. You do not get to decide who is or is not a "prosumer".

 

[DisEnchantment]

Looks to be running at 70+fps in The Last of Us and 40+fps in RDR, amazing how the fix devs applied doubled the performance vs what it got initially.

What's even more amazing is that AMD does not even have the Programming Reference out yet for Zen 4. Plain sad.
Devs have to probe cpuid bits to figure out stuffs.
Another thing annoying is that we get updated manuals only in case of vulnerabilities when some devs want to upstream kernel fixes and the average Linux user is supposed to lap it up?

 

[DisEnchantment]

We have pretty much kept the original cadence, although I made the decision to slide Genoa for two quarters because we wanted to intercept CXL. I remember Mark Papermaster and I sat down and I said that Sapphire Rapids was going to slip out into 2022, and probably the beginning of 2022, and we can come out within a couple of quarters of Sapphire Rapids and it will be OK for Genoa.

I never, in my wildest dreams, thought that Genoa would beat Sapphire Rapids to the post.

Zen 4 (in Genoa) delayed by 2Qs to wait for CXL
Forrest Norrod w/ Tim Morgan

The Steady Hand Guiding AMD’s “Prudently Expanding” Datacenter Business

The old AMD – the one before Lisa Su took over – was often brilliant with its instruction set architecture and CPU designs, but sometimes perplexingly

www.nextplatform.com

 

[inf64]

What's even more amazing is that AMD does not even have the Programming Reference out yet for Zen 4. Plain sad.
Devs have to probe cpuid bits to figure out stuffs.
Another thing annoying is that we get updated manuals only in case of vulnerabilities when some devs want to upstream kernel fixes and the average Linux user is supposed to lap it up?

Yeah, AMD dropped the ball with developer resources for Zen 4, inexcusable.

Zen 4 (in Genoa) delayed by 2Qs to wait for CXL
Forrest Norrod w/ Tim Morgan

The Steady Hand Guiding AMD’s “Prudently Expanding” Datacenter Business

The old AMD – the one before Lisa Su took over – was often brilliant with its instruction set architecture and CPU designs, but sometimes perplexingly

www.nextplatform.com

So Genoa should have launched in Q2 of this year but Norrod delayed it so that it supports CXL. Not a bad decision seeing how badly delayed Sapphire Rapid is.

 

[Timmah!]

Again, I would argue that the 24 core Threadripper is a poor value. For $3,000 you can get a Mac Studio with 64gb of RAM that has slightly better single core performance and similar multicore performance. You also need to factor in the total cost of the system. I will get off my soapbox now.

It is no doubt. Especially when previous gen 24core was 1500 instead of 2500, and when 16 superior Zen4 cores are 700. Does not matter it has 8 RAM channels instead of 4 before, asking additional grand just for that alone is clear attempt at milking, no way around that. Especially when there are many people who were fine with 4 channels before.

 

[nicalandia]

Check this...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1577023864621903873

 

[DrMrLordX]

CPB isn't overclocking. And I doubt PBO was enabled by default. AMD really intended for the CPU to keep pulling as much power as possible up to 95C, with the only other limit being a 230W PPT.

 

[moinmoin]

Check this...

View attachment 68654

https://twitter.com/x/status/1577023864621903873

Not sure if serious. Doesn't disabling CPB essentially set the CPU to the base clock and disable any boost? We already had plenty better ways to reduce temperature and increase efficiency.

 

[eek2121]

I just visited Apple store and it is FOUR grand for a sealed little box, in/to which you cannot swap/add anything. It looks very pretty.

I looked at the Apple store prior to posting, my cost for a Mac Studio with 20 cores was $2,999 + tax. I even took a screenshot. Even at $3,999 (which it is now listed at) is still a better deal than a 24 TR Pro workstation with similar specs 64 gb RAM, 1 tb of storage).

Just so I am clear, the 7950X at $699 is faster than the 5965wx, and Zen 4 Threadrippers aren't set to launch until late next year.

So, regarding the rest of your statement...pretty much ALL companies don't upgrade their workstations after purchase. I'm absolutely NOT a fan of Apple, nor do I like defending them, but find me a better deal than a Mac Studio with Threadripper 16-32 cores inside and similar specs (excluding GPUs above the 3060, that is basically the only part of the market AMD somewhat owns) A better deal that does not come with tradeoffs does not exist. Further, since most software in this space is cross platform, AMD can't even use "Windows" to their advantage. They need to step up and step up bigly.

I hope that Zen 4 Threadripper has a fresh approach.

 

[poke01]

So, regarding the rest of your statement...pretty much ALL companies don't upgrade their workstations after purchase. I'm absolutely NOT a fan of Apple, nor do I like defending them, but find me a better deal than a Mac Studio with Threadripper 16-32 cores inside and similar specs (excluding GPUs above the 3060, that is basically the only part of the market AMD somewhat owns) A better deal that does not come with tradeoffs does not exist. Further, since most software in this space is cross platform, AMD can't even use "Windows" to their advantage. They need to step up and step up bigly

The Mac Studio is a dead solution. By that I mean the box is meant for niche use cases. It is not a proper wortstation. No expansion, nothing.

Apple is dead in the workstation market. Right now, AMD and Nvidia is king. Apple's little lunch box cannot compete with a threadripper if even the PC workstation is more expensive. I can upgrade the GPU, CPU, RAM, SSD, expansion via the multiple slots. This is what makes a workstation.

Now if Apple released a 32 core Apple sillicon that follows the Mac Pro design and supported AMD gpus then we can talk but then no PC user is ever going to use macOS only with no Windows support or proper Linux support.

 

[poke01]

Zen 4 is a beauty. Switch emulation is gonna rock with this gen.

 

[Shamrock]

Very little performance loss for 65W/Eco mode, and gaming is more or less identical.

Too bad, Wright Spire no longer has a role as AMD stock CPU cooler.But ok, for 65W every good smaller CPU cooler will be quite enough.One example, quite popular cheap LC Power CPU cooler in various EU countries.

LC-CC-95 - LC-Power

CPU cooler

www.lc-power.com

LC Power hladnjak za CPU Cosmo Cool LC-CC95, aluminij, s.775

Gdje kupiti LC Power hladnjak za CPU Cosmo Cool LC-CC95, aluminij, s.775 - usporedi cijene, pogledaj značajke i izaberi trgovinu

www.nabava.net

How about the Wraith Prism? It is sold by AMD.

https://www.amd.com/en/direct-buy/5578887700/us

 

[RnR_au]

How thick is the vcache die? Via google I'm seeing values for general die thinkness post backgrinding of the order of 300μm although it can go down to the 30-50μm depending on the nature of the die and how it will be used.

The reason I am asking is that there is some noise on another forum speculating that the X3D IHS will be thinner and therefore can help the X3D die run cooler or at least help counteract the 'thermal blanket' from the silicon spacer over the logic areas. But given the expected thickness of the vcache dies involved, I just can't see that happening or at least not having a great effect. If all dies gets backgrinded, then it would make sense to keep the IHS the same thickness and just remove slightly more from the cpu die than normal as part of the standard process.

Thoughts?

 

[Hitman928]

How thick is the vcache die? Via google I'm seeing values for general die thinkness post backgrinding of the order of 300μm although it can go down to the 30-50μm depending on the nature of the die and how it will be used.

The reason I am asking is that there is some noise on another forum speculating that the X3D IHS will be thinner and therefore can help the X3D die run cooler or at least help counteract the 'thermal blanket' from the silicon spacer over the logic areas. But given the expected thickness of the vcache dies involved, I just can't see that happening or at least not having a great effect. If all dies gets backgrinded, then it would make sense to keep the IHS the same thickness and just remove slightly more from the cpu die than normal as part of the standard process.

Thoughts?

The base die is backgrinded until it is very thin (probably around 50 um) and then the Vcache die will be thinned by as much as the height of the base die such that the total height is the same.

 

[aigomorla]

12 and 16 cores CPUs for AM5 are HEDT.

No its not.

ThreadRipper is HEDT.
EYPC is enterprise.
Ryzen's are straight up consumer / gamer

HEDT by definition is Enterprise gear wrapped by a consumer badge which allows overclocking. AKA ThreadRipper, and the Last Intel X series CPU.

AM5 is NOT by that definition a HEDT.
If AM5 gave me 64 PCI-E lanes i would maybe consider it HEDT.
But 24 + 8 PCI-E lanes is a joke to call it HEDT.

Dont try to blow up AM5 for more then it is, its NOT a HEDT.

If you are a proffessional who can productively use that computing power and connectivity of the Threadripper, it is CHEAP. This is a proffessional workstation stuff, not HEDT.

6000 dollar CPU for Consumer is NOT CHEAP....
Professional Workstation Does not allow you to OVERCLOCK, or has very limited overclocking.
ThreadRipper has a unlocked multiplier, by definition its HEDT, and not a Workstation.
The 3000 Series ThreadRipper PRO's which locked the multiplier are more workstation, but the 5000 series with an unlocked multiplier is a HEDT.
A EYPC made for overclocking, to be used on a consumer backbone, is HEDT.

Its not cheap even for HEDT.
Intel has NEVER had a 6000 dollar cpu on the Workstation side.
You had to go full boat into Enterprise to get CPU's that expensive.

And A lot of us are not after the cores but the PCI-E Lanes.
We want more PCI-E lanes then Cores so we can have more Addon's like more MORE nVME's in Bifuri slots.
So we can run those 10GBe nic's, and have more then one GPU's to power more then 4 monitors + a VR headset.

I don't need a 64core monster... i need a 128 PCI-E lane beast with 4+ full 16x PCI-E Slots instead that wont cost me 5000+ dollars to build.

Yep. Now you see AMD's current conundrum with HEDT. The platform is too expensive. You can blame EPYC for that. They don't want Threadripper to replace EPYC sales.

I remember AMD getting all pissed people were buying threadrippers and overclocking them, making them significantly faster then EYPC's and killing the EYPC market. lol.
So they fix the problem by pricing the threadrippers to EYPC prices, hence they make a profit on both ends... (sigh)

I really just want my PCI-E lanes.... why is both sides so cheap in not giving us PCI-E lanes, or at least options for boards with PLX chips so we can get more PCI-E lanes.

 

[Det0x]

In regards to "HEDT" vs 7950x:
I actually managed to "outbench" a Zen2 threadripper with twice the numbers of cores in techpowerup.com forums 7-zip benchmark thread


I'm only getting to know the plattform but its clear to me that Zen4 is very fast

 

[Joe NYC]

Haven't seen anything posted about this in this thread:

Robert Hallock to Leave AMD After 12 Years



I think this could be a good thing in the long run as i haven't been especially impressed by the marketing lately..
Just one example, what do you guys think sound better: (recent blender comparison with 12900k vs 7950x)

• "31% faster" (its actually 31% less time)

or

• "46% faster" ?

View attachment 67469

https://twitter.com/x/status/1528756387781693440

Also, whoever came up with Zen 4 chipset Naming Scheme deserved to be fired.
(I am not sure if it was Hallock).

 

[Kocicak]

No its not.

ThreadRipper is HEDT.
EYPC is enterprise.
Ryzen's are straight up consumer / gamer

HEDT by definition is Enterprise gear wrapped by a consumer badge which allows overclocking. AKA ThreadRipper, and the Last Intel X series CPU.

AM5 is NOT by that definition a HEDT.
If AM5 gave me 64 PCI-E lanes i would maybe consider it HEDT.
But 24 + 8 PCI-E lanes is a joke to call it HEDT.

Dont try to blow up AM5 for more then it is, its NOT a HEDT.

HEDT has no coined definition, it is just an acronym for "high end desktop computer". If you say "high end", it reflects only the price, not performance, although higher performance is SOMETIMES needed to justify higher price. 12 and 16 core CPUs for AM5 alone cost so much, that you can build a whole functioning system for that price. These are HIGH END CONSUMER processors.

Threadripper is a WORKSTATION CPU intended for productive work for people, who are able to build their own workstations, and who can run these CPUs outside what enterprice sphere would find acceptable (performance per watt, cooling, stability, etc.).

Workstation and HEDT are two DIFFERENT things.

 

[DrMrLordX]

HEDT has no coined definition

You understand that you are now arguing with HEDT buyers about what is HEDT.

 

[MadRat]

Workstations were always much more expensive than home machines. We used to spend between $1k-$4k on videocards for engineers.

 

[eek2121]

The Mac Studio is a dead solution. By that I mean the box is meant for niche use cases. It is not a proper wortstation. No expansion, nothing.

Apple is dead in the workstation market. Right now, AMD and Nvidia is king. Apple's little lunch box cannot compete with a threadripper if even the PC workstation is more expensive. I can upgrade the GPU, CPU, RAM, SSD, expansion via the multiple slots. This is what makes a workstation.

Now if Apple released a 32 core Apple sillicon that follows the Mac Pro design and supported AMD gpus then we can talk but then no PC user is ever going to use macOS only with no Windows support or proper Linux support.

No expansion? it has thunderbolt, what more do you need these days? Workstation users in a pro environment don’t use the internal expansion capabilities of a PC.

Shoot, in a decade of IT work the only internal expansion slot used by anyone, even with all those large Power Macs I had to deal with was for a GPU.

If they run out of storage, give them an external thunderbolt drive. Most companies these days don’t want you storing stuff locally, so storage space is rarely an issue.

If RAM becomes an issue, that also means the machine is due for an upgrade.

There may be small niches where expansion is desired (someone doing local ML work comes to mind, with 2-4 GPUs), but outside of that, companies don’t care. If they did, all things Apple wouldn’t be selling like hotcakes.

I will be glad when Intel returns to HEDT so AMD gets a wakeup call.

You understand that you are now arguing with HEDT buyers about what is HEDT.

Yep, this.

 

[Kocicak]

I will be glad when Intel returns to HEDT so AMD gets a wakeup call.

What makes you believe that Intel can sell that huge monolithic 34 core chip leaked recently much cheaper, than for what AMD sells their 32 core Threadripper now?

AMD can just adjust the price of the Threadripper, release lower core count Threadrippers for normal sale or potentially add one more chiplet under the hood of AM5 processors. I believe AMD is fully awake and ready to make a move, once Intel releases their 34 core beast.

 

[eek2121]

What makes you believe that Intel can sell that huge monolithic 34 core chip leaked recently much cheaper, than for what AMD sells their 32 core Threadripper now?

AMD can just adjust the price of the Threadripper, release lower core count Threadrippers for normal sale or potentially add one more chiplet under the hood of AM5 processors. I believe AMD is fully awake and ready to make a move, once Intel releases their 34 core beast.

AMD has something like an 85% margin on Threadripper Pro. A competitive release from Intel will likely change that. AMD will want to drop prices on the 24-32 core parts to remain competitive, which is exactly what they need to do.

The gap between 16 core Zen 4 cores ($699) and 24 core Threadripper ($2,700) is empty except for 12-16 core Threadrippers. That gap needs to be filled in. I suspect that is why a lot of people complained about AMD killing the non-Pro parts. Motherboards and RAM costed half the cost, and the CPUs were cheaper.

 

[Kocicak]

... AMD will want to ... remain competitive ...

It would help a lot to know what, when, and with what performance, power consumption and price comes from Intel to know, against what AMD should remain competitive. So far we have just this picture, which may never materialise into a real and competitive product.