Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[In2Photos]

Ok a few thoughts for this October,

If we take as a given that 7600X @ $300 will be 2% to 5% faster vs $569 i9 12900K and $439 Ryzen 5800X3D ........

A lot of people will happily invest in B650 + 7600X + DDR5 leveraging the upgradability to ZEN5 later in 2024.
Both AM4 and Socket 1700 will be dead after Raptor Lake launch at the end of the month and although RL may bring more vfm (with DDR4) it may not get that much love from many.

The 5800X3D dropped to $385 already!

 

[moinmoin]

It maybe that AMD pushed Zen 4 clocks too high. M1 Ultra (16P + 4E) which is also a TSMC 5nm chip running at 3.2GHz has max temps of 50 celsius under 100% cpu load.

Intel and the market response have shown there is no "too high", this is the "free" OC headroom everybody wants.

When run at 3.2 GHz I'd expect Zen 4 to not run hotter, if not cooler than M1 Ultra. In general I'd expect lower frequency to be significantly cooler and more efficient than in the past gens, which would explain the significantly higher base frequencies given.

 

[Asterox]

Ok a few thoughts for this October,

If we take as a given that 7600X @ $300 will be 2% to 5% faster vs $569 i9 12900K and $439 Ryzen 5800X3D ........
A lot of people will happily invest in B650 + 7600X + DDR5 leveraging the upgradability to ZEN5 later in 2024.
Both AM4 and Socket 1700 will be dead after Raptor Lake launch at the end of the month and although RL may bring more vfm (with DDR4) it may not get that much love from many.

You cant compare red vs bold, or very short lived bold lol.

A lot of people with five year old motherboards will be very happy to upgrade to Zen 3 processors=dont need Zen 4.

They are incomparable platforms, the long-lived AM4 already belongs to the legends.Classic Mindfactory DiY CPU sales numbers.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1564678911333744640

Intel 1700 socket, another in a series of sockets that died too soon.

 

[Abwx]

Wow, that's even worse than what I thought!

Be assured that AMD used a fair comparison, they wouldnt use a beta OS that is known to degrade perfs of the competition and even less use a single RAM channel for the opponent when comparing mobile products...

Speicher für AMD Ryzen 7000: DDR5-6000 ist effektiv und DDR5-5200 der neue Standard

AMD bestätigt DDR5-5200 als neuen Standard für Ryzen 7000 und DDR5-6000 als effektiv beste Wahl für die neue AM5-Plattform.

www.computerbase.de

 

[Exist50]

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AMD EPYC 9004 "Genoa-X" and "Bergamo" CPUs SKU lists leaks out, EPYC 9754 features 128 Zen4c cores - VideoCardz.com

AMD goes EPYC with Genoa-X and Bergamo Hardware leaker YuuKi_AnS shares new information on AMD naming convention for Genoa-X and Bergamo CPUs. AMD EPYC Genoa-X/Bergamo Naming Convention, Source: YuuKi_AnS AMD is yet to officially launch its Genoa data-center CPU series. The company also...

videocardz.com

Hey, adored tv was right about 64 zen 4c cores on sp6. So sp6 maxes out at 32 normal zen 4 cores after all.

So 6 ddr5 channels on sp6 is also true I assume

Huh. Kinda surprised they're topping out at 32 cores on Sienna. You'd think the mainstream demand would be trending a bit higher. But maybe they just don't care as long as the CSPs are willing to buy every Genoa they make.

 

[moinmoin]

Huh. Kinda surprised they're topping out at 32 cores on Sienna. You'd think the mainstream demand would be trending a bit higher. But maybe they just don't care as long as the CSPs are willing to buy every Genoa they make.

I guess this just shows how much of a budget platform Sienna/SP6 is supposed to be, no fancy dense high end packaging. Zen 4c raises that to 64 cores making it level with Milan/SP3 again, and that's likely not far off, if both aren't launched around the same time anyway.

 

[Exist50]

I guess this just shows how much of a budget platform Sienna/SP6 is supposed to be, no fancy dense high end packaging. Zen 4c raises that to 64 cores making it level with Milan/SP3 again, and that's likely not far off, if both aren't launched around the same time anyway.

Sure, but my impression, perhaps wrong, was that there'd be a lot of demand in the 32-64c range, and that market might not want to pay the platform costs of 12 channels.

 

[Joe NYC]

Okay but Papermaster is such a cool last name!

Surely beats "Rockmaster" in Rock, Paper Scissors.

 

[PJVol]

avx-512 ON or OFF in AIDA? thats the key here. I bet ON (default option)

Yeah, and yet it's curious what temps look like with it's off.

 

[moinmoin]

Sure, but my impression, perhaps wrong, was that there'd be a lot of demand in the 32-64c range, and that market might not want to pay the platform costs of 12 channels.

But 64c is covered. Sienna will offer up to 64c. Just not with full size Zen 4 but half size Zen 4c cores (for which we just don't know yet the trade offs, if any applicable in that market).

Surely beats "Rockmaster" in Rock, Paper Scissors.

This is starting to sound like a Megaman game.

 

[Exist50]

But 64c is covered. Sienna will offer up to 64c. Just not with full size Zen 4 but half size Zen 4c cores (for which we just don't know yet the trade offs, if any applicable in that market).

I don't think there's been any leak or rumor about Zen 4c outside of Bergamo. Moreover, it probably will not be used in mainstream servers. Much more of a cloud-oriented product.

 

[jpiniero]

I don't think there's been any leak or rumor about Zen 4c outside of Bergamo. Moreover, it probably will not be used in mainstream servers. Much more of a cloud-oriented product.

The naming sheet in that twitter post mentioned 48 and 64 core Zen 4c options for SP6.

 

[Exist50]

The naming sheet in that twitter post mentioned 48 and 64 core Zen 4c options for SP6.

It's mentioned in the naming sheet, but not the SKU list, unless I'm missing something. On mobile so kinda hard to navigate the Twitter thread.

 

[AtenRa]

You cant compare red vs bold, or very short lived bold lol.

A lot of people with five year old motherboards will be very happy to upgrade to Zen 3 processors=dont need Zen 4.

They are incomparable platforms, the long-lived AM4 already belongs to the legends.Classic Mindfactory DiY CPU sales numbers.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1564678911333744640

Intel 1700 socket, another in a series of sockets that died too soon.

I was talking about new builds between ZEN 4 and RL.

ps. AM4 in the end of 2022 is worse vs socket 1700. Take as example two users today, one with Ryzen 5600X and another with i5 12400f.
next year the AM4 users will only have an option for 5800X3D at $400 (for gaming) , where 12400 users will have an option for 13700k at $400. 13700k will be faster in both gaming and MT vs 5800X3D.

 

[jpiniero]

It's mentioned in the naming sheet, but not the SKU list, unless I'm missing something. On mobile so kinda hard to navigate the Twitter thread.

The SKU list only has the SP5 models.

 

[poke01]

Intel and the market response have shown there is no "too high", this is the "free" OC headroom everybody wants.

When run at 3.2 GHz I'd expect Zen 4 to not run hotter, if not cooler than M1 Ultra. In general I'd expect lower frequency to be significantly cooler and more efficient than in the past gens, which would explain the significantly higher base frequencies given.

Keep in mind the M1 Ultra is not using an AIO but air cooled. If it's running 50C at max pegged. using Air cooling I bet water cooling would drop it further.

 

[nicalandia]

NDA Lifts on the 20th? This means Reviews are Up on that day..

 

[igor_kavinski]

Can't wait for TPU and igorslab reviews.

 

[nicalandia]

Some Bios bugg issues causing high heat. Manual settings lower the temp..

 

[In2Photos]

Holy crap that's a HUGE difference! What was stock vcore? 2V?

 

[igor_kavinski]

Holy crap that's a HUGE difference! What was stock vcore? 2V?

Maybe AMD is trying to kill ES/QS CPUs. Harder for a dead CPU to be sold.

 

[nicalandia]

Holy crap that's a HUGE difference! What was stock vcore? 2V?

No, stock it's about 1.3 Volts. The one that reaches 65 Watts its basically Ecomode and it's less than 1 volt

 

[Joe NYC]

ps. AM4 in the end of 2022 is worse vs socket 1700.

Wait, are you saying that that socket released in 2021 has more life left in it that socket released in 2016?

You are making some bold claims...

 

[moinmoin]

Some Bios bugg issues causing high heat. Manual settings lower the temp..

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Sounds like a continuation from previous gens: The biggest efficiency gains without decreasing performance are available by undervolting. Though it's kind of disappointing AMD apparently still hasn't improved this automatic behavior.

 

[nicalandia]

Sounds like a continuation from previous gens: The biggest efficiency gains without decreasing performance are available by undervolting. Though it's kind of disappointing AMD apparently still hasn't improved this automatic behavior.

I hope all gets iron out before the Review embargo is lifted. I hope the usual suspect reviewers are using good coolers in any event