Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

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Vattila

Vattila

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Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

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What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts! :)
 
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DrMrLordX

DrMrLordX

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Exist50 said:
You got a link for that one? Was that the whole "AMD is worth zero dollars" thing?
Click to expand...

CTS Labs. Intel "sponsored" research into Ryzen to look for vulnerabilities, and the result was Ryzenfall. CTS Labs didn't even bother discolosing the vulnerabilities to AMD before going public.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1236083090885234688

Just one source, you can dig further if you like.

edit: correction, I actually posted a link to another AMD-related vulnerability research project that Intel sponsored. Woops, sorry. It only peripherally mentions CTS Labs. I'll leave it up for posterity.

wccftech.com

Evidence Suggests Report on AMD Security Was Financially Motivated

A new report published by Tel Aviv based security company CTS-Labs alleges discovering 13 fatal security flaws in AMD's new lineup of Ryzen and EPYC processors.
wccftech.com wccftech.com

Here's an old story about CTS Labs being involved in possible stock manipulation.

"amdflaws.com" - What is this?

https://www.amdflaws.com The website claims to be some kind of consumer advocacy site that says it found all sorts of flaws in AMD products and claims that "people should consider using products other than AMD's in mission critical products". It seems like a total hit job. I hope Lisa Su...
forums.anandtech.com forums.anandtech.com

Here's our thread on the subject. Okay I found the "AMD is worth $0" bit there. You're remembering correctly.
 
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Exist50

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DrMrLordX said:
CTS Labs. Intel "sponsored" research into Ryzen to look for vulnerabilities, and the result was Ryzenfall. CTS Labs didn't even bother discolosing the vulnerabilities to AMD before going public.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1236083090885234688

Just one source, you can dig further if you like.
Click to expand...
I meant for the "Intel sponsored" bit. Simply don't remember that from the original coverage.
 
DrMrLordX

DrMrLordX

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Exist50 said:
I meant for the "Intel sponsored" bit. Simply don't remember that from the original coverage.
Click to expand...

Technically nobody proved it. The last details to come out about CTS Labs come from chatter surrounding their appearance at MS Blue Hat in 2019. It looks like at least one of their guys was ex-military intelligence and was basically classified as "ex-Mossad for hire". Nobody ever found a financial link between Viceroy (who was shorting AMD) and CTS Labs, either. The money for research came from somewhere. CTS Labs didn't do this for free, and their operation was tiny.
 
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Exist50

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DrMrLordX said:
Technically nobody proved it. The last details to come out about CTS Labs come from chatter surrounding their appearance at MS Blue Hat in 2019. It looks like at least one of their guys was ex-military intelligence and was basically classified as "ex-Mossad for hire". Nobody ever found a financial link between Viceroy (who was shorting AMD) and CTS Labs, either. The money for research came from somewhere. CTS Labs didn't do this for free, and their operation was tiny.
Click to expand...
Well that's a very different story than your original comment...
 
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Det0x

Det0x

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AMD Zen 4 Ryzen 7000 to launch on September 15 at US$799 for Ryzen 9 7950X, Ryzen 7 7800X3D and Ryzen 9 7950X3D purported 3D V-Cache versions

AMD could announce the Zen 4-based Ryzen 7000 parts in the first week of September followed by launch on September 15. Early pricing info indicates that the Zen 4 Raphael desktop lineup will start from US$229 for the Ryzen 5 7600 and top-out at US$799 for the Ryzen 9 7950X. AMD is also expected to introduce Ryzen 7 7800X3D and Ryzen 9 7950X3D as Zen 4 3D V-Cache SKUs.
Click to expand...
According to Paul from RedGamingTech:
  • Ryzen 5 7600: US$229
  • Ryzen 5 7600X: US$299
  • Ryzen 7 7700X: US$349
  • Ryzen 7 7800X: US$449
  • Ryzen 9 7900X: US$549
  • Ryzen 9 7950X: US$799
Paul also claims that Ryzen 7000 may be able to hit 6 GHz with Precision Boost Overdrive (PBO), but this would require some fine binning and some serious cooling prowess.

Well-known leaker @greymon55 on Twitter indicated that a Ryzen 7 7800X3D with 3D V-Cache could be in the works. In addition to the 7800X3D, we might also see a Ryzen 9 7950X3D implying that AMD will be offering 3D V-Cache in both its 8-core and 16-core top-end variants.

Pricing for the 3D V-Cache variants is anybody's guess at this point, but current signs point to an increased markup over corresponding conventional SKUs.
Click to expand...
Source(s)
RedGamingTech on YouTube
@greymon55 on Twitter (1) and (2)

*edit*
Other leak:
"AMD Ryzen 7000 “Raphael” Desktop CPU Spotted Running 64GB DDR5 memory @ 6400MT/s "
https://twitter.com/x/status/1554396893920522245
 
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DrMrLordX

DrMrLordX

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Exist50 said:
Well that's a very different story than your original comment...
Click to expand...

Fine if you want to go that route: Intel sponsored this:


Which was explicitly documented by Hardware Unboxed in the tweet I linked above. Since Intel has been "caught" sponsoring security researchers publishing vulnerabilities on AMD hardware, it stands to reason that the far-more-embarrassing CTS Labs incident was also their handiwork, since no other source of funding was ever found (including no funding from Viceroy, who was originally alleged to have sponsored the effort). Occam's Razor and all that. Nobody can prove that Intel is funding Userbenchmark's current anti-AMD tirade either.

Moving right along

@Det0x

A 7950X3D? Oo I may have to hold off to get one of those instead. Now my purchasing plans became all complicated and stuff.
 
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Timmah!

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igor_kavinski said:
Price could be $849-$899 with lower boost clocks.
Click to expand...

I hope it wont boost lower, at least not significantly. Otherwise i might go with vanilla one.
And i hope it will at least get announced and reviewed at the same time as vanilla 7950x, even if it gets sold sometimes later. So i can decide which one i go right away and not delay it until god knows when (will v-cache version get released), and then possibly find out vanilla one is the way to go for me anyway, so i did not have to wait.
 
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Exist50

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DrMrLordX said:
Since Intel has been "caught" sponsoring security researchers publishing vulnerabilities on AMD hardware, it stands to reason that the far-more-embarrassing CTS Labs incident was also their handiwork, since no other source of funding was ever found (including no funding from Viceroy, who was originally alleged to have sponsored the effort). Occam's Razor and all that. Nobody can prove that Intel is funding Userbenchmark
Click to expand...
Occam's Razor would suggest stock manipulation by a short seller. And there's an ocean of difference between sponsoring established security researchers that responsibly disclose issues (and weren't even necessarily targeting competitors) and the whole CTS Labs debacle. Conspiracy theories do no one any good, especially when claimed as fact.
 
Markfw

Markfw

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Exist50 said:
Occam's Razor would suggest stock manipulation by a short seller. And there's an ocean of difference between sponsoring established security researchers that responsibly disclose issues (and weren't even necessarily targeting competitors) and the whole CTS Labs debacle. Conspiracy theories do no one any good, especially when claimed as fact.
Click to expand...
In general, and in specific (the big lawsuit against Intel for one), Intel has done every dirty trick in the book and been caught at it, BY THE LAW. If one out 100 instances of these are not real, well , so what. DrMrLordX is saying they have paid for researchers to find bad things about AMD chips and it was found that it was baseless.
 
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Timmah!

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igor_kavinski said:
Good luck!
Click to expand...

Thanks! :p

I know its wishful thinking, but you never know. AFAIK they announced 3950x at the same time as the rest of the 3000 line-up, while stating it will go on sale like 3 months later. Maybe they´ll do something similar with v-cache versions this time around.
 
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Exist50

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Markfw said:
DrMrLordX is saying they have paid for researchers to find bad things about AMD chips and it was found that it was baseless.
Click to expand...
And I'm pointing out that that specific claim is little more than a conspiracy theory, and moreover that a far more logical explanation exists. If you care about the allegations, you should also care about whether they're accurate.
 
DrMrLordX

DrMrLordX

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Exist50 said:
Occam's Razor would suggest stock manipulation by a short seller.
Click to expand...

That was the initial allegation; however, the issue is funding. Viceroy never sent any money to CTS Labs. If you look at the full body of evidence, CTS used stock footage to make it appear as though they were an established firm with offices and a server room, but it turned out their address pointed to a run down strip mall-like structure in Haifa. They had at most 6 people on staff. They wound up publishing multiple vulnerabilities - mostly involving ASMedia chipsets - with no known funding source. Money was never traced back to the short-seller (Viceroy).

Userbenchmark is kind of the same story: comes out of nowhere slinging mud at AMD and inexplicably altering their algos to favor Intel chips. They had an oops moment with Zen4 so now they're trolling AMD and will likely "fix" their benchmark soon to send its score into the basement.
 
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Exist50

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DrMrLordX said:
That was the initial allegation; however, the issue is funding. Viceroy never sent any money to CTS Labs
Click to expand...
So let me understand. Because a certain party has not been found to send them money, it must be a different party who also hasn't been found to send them money, and has both less to gain and more at risk than the original? How does that make sense?
 
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