Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[nicalandia]

This is what is said in the Phoronix AVX-512 Benchmarks.

"At least for the AMD motherboard I was using with its current pre-release BIOS, there isn't any option for disabling AVX-512 from the motherboard BIOS."

So he was not able to test it with fully disabled FP units. Just by software.

Someone that gets their hands on these CPU and with release Bios needs to test this feature.

 

[Dave3000]

Well, no surprise in gaming workloads. Even those brutal PBO beasts struggle to beat the old Zen 3 with V-Cache or old 12900K.

Gamers should buy cheap AM4 + 5800X3D, Intel, or wait for Zen 4 + cache.

I right now have a 5800X and a GTX 1080 Ti. The only games I play on my PC currently are X-Plane 11, FS2020, and in the future X-Plane 12. I could not find any info on how the 7700X performs in these 2 games but based on what I saw so far in the benchmarks on gaming earlier today I think I will wait for 7800X3D or whatever it's going to be called. I rather upgrade to a faster GPU for now, maybe a 3080 Ti or 3090 Ti.

 

[biostud]

I right now have a 5800X and a GTX 1080 Ti. The only games I play on my PC currently are X-Plane 11, FS2020, and in the future X-Plane 12. I could not find any info on how the 7700X performs in these 2 games but based on what I saw so far in the benchmarks on gaming earlier today I think I will wait for 7800X3D or whatever it's going to be called. I rather upgrade to a faster GPU for now, maybe a 3080 Ti or 3090 Ti.

(1) AMD is in TROUBLE – Ryzen 7000 Full Review - YouTube

5800X3D is much faster in FS2020 (4:02), so wait for 7800X3D

 

[nicalandia]

(1) AMD is in TROUBLE – Ryzen 7000 Full Review - YouTube

How is AMD in TROUBLE?

 

[biostud]

How is AMD in TROUBLE?

I think it is a LTT "joke"

 

[Kocicak]

I think that that TROUBLE refers mainly to lower CPUs not having clear advantage over Intel offerings, and that even before Raptor lake comes.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Ask yourself this: "do i want a 12 pounder desktop replacement or do I want a 900 gram bread knife $1400 starting"

I don't care that much for weight, but I certainly don't want a DTR like Schenker or XMG. That's a total overkill.
You can get a nice Razer Blade 14 weighting only 1.8kg (4 pounds) with Ryzen 9 6900HX + RTX 3070 Ti Laptop with decent temperatures. I expect they will update It to Dragon Ridge next year.
For Phoenix APU It would be best to choose at least a 45W TDP version, to not sacrifice too much CPU and IGP performance, but then weight won't be <1kg but ~1.4kg.
It will depend on the asked price, but Dragon Ridge would be more future-proof.

 

[Hitman928]

I think that that TROUBLE refers mainly to lower CPUs not being very competitive compared to Intel offerings, and that even before Raptor lake comes.

Nope. After skipping through the video, he's mostly talking about AMD competing with itself in that the 5800X3D performs roughly equal to Zen 4's current best in gaming but is cheaper both in the platform and CPU costs. While there is obviously some truth here, the title is totally hyperbolic, but youtubers gonna youtube it.

Edit: He does mention the productivity of the lower core count chips against Intel, but the focus is really on gaming and platform costs. The mid range debate is kinda silly, IMO, until we see official RPL pricing.

 

[Schmide]

How is AMD in TROUBLE?

AMD has made a lot of $250 backpacks and needs clicks.

 

[nicalandia]

AMD has made a lot of $250 backpacks and needs clicks.

I am Sick And Tired of LTT Hyperbolic and Click Baiting headlines and Thumbnails

 

[Schmide]

I am Sick And Tired of LTT Hyperbolic and Click Baiting headlines and Thumbnails

View attachment 68157

Is that you Luke ?

 

[Spicedaddy]

First impression is these chips should've all been X3D from the start.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Actually I wanna try to just disable boost on 7950X, since I run all core like 75% of the time and the base is already really high at 4.5GHz.

Wouldn't it be simpler to use ear plugs? Or noise cancelling headphones?

 

[inf64]

This was probably posted in this thread, but we see an insane perf./watt in Eco or TDP limited modes: https://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/luke-hill/amd-ryzen-9-7950x-ryzen-7-7700x-zen-4-review/19/



More than 3x higher perf/watt vs stock 12900K in rendering when running in 88W Eco mode.

 

[igor_kavinski]

when they’re using the best commercially viable solution available to them.

OK then they can use some extreme solution for better results with a higher priced SKU like maybe 7950XT. I wouldn't mind paying $100 extra for 20 degrees less as long as it means I get that out of the box.

 

[gdansk]

This was probably posted in this thread, but we see an insane perf./watt in Eco or TDP limited modes: https://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/luke-hill/amd-ryzen-9-7950x-ryzen-7-7700x-zen-4-review/19/

View attachment 68158

More than 3x higher perf/watt vs stock 12900K in rendering when running in 88W Eco mode.

It is better to compare at like power limits. What does 12900K get at 88W or 142W?

 

[Hitman928]

OK then they can use some extreme solution for better results with a higher priced SKU like maybe 7950XT. I wouldn't mind paying $100 extra for 20 degrees less as long as it means I get that out of the box.

What extreme solution would that be? That's the issue here.

Edit: Let's consider some alternatives.

First, liquid metal. Not possible, you'd kill the CPU as liquid metal is conductive and prone to not stay where you put it.

Second, removing the IHS and having people do direct die. Also not viable. It's too risky to have the general public mounting coolers to bare dies. You'd have people killing their CPUs left and right. This would have a huge effect on AMD's reputation and they'd be flooded with RMAs.

Can you think of another extreme solution they could use?

 

[inf64]

It is better to compare at like power limits. What does 12900K get at 88W or 142W?

Computerbase did some tests :



Pretty much a bloodbath at 65W as 7950X has 52% better performance. At 88W, 7950 is 57% faster than 12900K.

 

[In2Photos]

I am Sick And Tired of LTT Hyperbolic and Click Baiting headlines and Thumbnails

View attachment 68157

I stopped watching their (his) videos for that very reason.

 

[Makaveli]

I don't wanna risk ruining a CPU through delidding.

what about paying for a delidding service?

Seems like it would be worth it for a 20c drop.

 

[nicalandia]

what about paying for a delidding service?

Seems like it would be worth it for a 20c drop.

Someone was able to get similar performance with a 0.1mv undervolt. I wonder If we can compound the effect of Delid + undervolt.

 

[moinmoin]

Personally I'm also reasonably confident there will also be an option to manage the target temperature of the CPU.

It's odd that Ryzen Master never offered that directly, but I'd think at least some BIOSes should include it. Would be nice if some reviewers tested the 7950X at different temperature limits then.

 

[Makaveli]

Computerbase did some tests :

View attachment 68159

Pretty much a bloodbath at 65W as 7950X has 52% better performance. At 88W, 7950 is 57% faster than 12900K.

Based on what i'm seeing so far. Those that are concerned about power consumption the 105w Eco mode for the 7950X seems like the best option for a small performance drop and a bigger drop in watts and thermals.

 

[Abwx]

Computerbase did some tests :

View attachment 68159

Pretty much a bloodbath at 65W as 7950X has 52% better performance. At 88W, 7950 is 57% faster than 12900K.

That s 52% better perf than the 12900K@65W, and also 4% better than a stock 12900K@240W.

Edit : At 88W it should almost match a 13900K@250W and at 142W it will be out of reach by the latter unless it s pushed at 300W+.

 

[moinmoin]

Temperature scaling testing

Now that AMD joined this race of the stupid in earnest there's plenty room for future improvements: