Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[Exist50]

but the RPL has 16 very weak cores

You used to call the rumors of these exact cores absurd because you thought they were far too powerful. Now you claim they're very weak?

 

[RnR_au]

Zen 4 initial models 'leaked';

The cat is now out of the bag, the upcoming Ryzen 7000 SKUs have now been confirmed by … AMD. The company has tagged seemingly unrelated Ryzen marketing resource file for Ryzen PRO CPU with four Ryzen 7000 CPUs:

* Ryzen 9 7950X
* Ryzen 9 7900X
* Ryzen 7 7700X
* Ryzen 5 7600X

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-con...0x-ryzen-7-7700x-and-ryzen-5-7600x-processors

Sounds like an 8 core Zen 4 is going to be a cheaper sku. At least initially. Maybe they'll be doing a 7800X3D later on in the year.

 

[Exist50]

Zen 4 initial models 'leaked';

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-con...0x-ryzen-7-7700x-and-ryzen-5-7600x-processors

Sounds like an 8 core Zen 4 is going to be a cheaper sku. At least initially. Maybe they'll be doing a 7800X3D later on in the year.

I think that's a good thing. The 5800x launched in a bit of an awkward spot. A cheaper 8 core out of the gate will make for better i5 competition and a smoother lineup of options.

 

[nicalandia]

I think that's a good thing. The 5800x launched in a bit of an awkward spot. A cheaper 8 core out of the gate will make for better i5 competition and a smoother lineup of options.

I lost the OC lottery with my 1700, but due to anecdotal experiences the 1700 was a oc dud all around. So the 1800X was the better choice albeit it commanded a much higher price.

Perhaps they will release a 7800XD as a follow up of 5800XD

 

[Markfw]

You used to call the rumors of these exact cores absurd because you thought they were far too powerful. Now you claim they're very weak?

e-cores are weak... They have those and 8 pretty strong cores.

BUT, Zen4 is a whole new animal. No bets yet, but my gut tells me they will beat P-cores easily.

 

[nicalandia]

e-cores are weak...
No bets yet, but my gut tells me they will beat P-cores easily.

I am taking bets that 8C/16T Zen4 Cores are more powerful than 16C/16T Skylake level CPUs and that 8c/16T Zen4 Cores are at least on par with 8C/16T P cores

 

[Exist50]

e-cores are weak...

They're Skylake-class IPC. If that's weak, then so are all the cores in a fully loaded 5995WX. But I guess you have to constantly move the goalposts...

 

[CakeMonster]

I am taking bets that 8C/16T Zen4 Cores are more powerful than 16C/16T Skylake level CPUs.

You're probably right, but that's also how it should be. Intel has been wasting too much power budget on the E-cores IMO. They should be great for offloading and extending the life of the CPU by a lot, but you'll want them to run as efficiently as possible, and not to impress anyone.

 

[nicalandia]

They're Skylake-class IPC. If that's weak, then so are all the cores in a fully loaded 5995WX..

Let me get this straight... Are you implying that Skylake = Zen3 in IPC?

 

[Exist50]

I am taking bets that 8C/16T Zen4 Cores are more powerful than 16C/16T Skylake level CPUs and that 8c/16T Zen4 Cores are at least on par with 8C/16T P cores

If ~2x the iso-process area and a full node advantage aren't enough to win, there's a serious problem. So yeah...

 

[Exist50]

Let me get this straight... Are you implying that Skylake = Zen3 in IPC?

No. GRT in Alder Lake ranges from mid 2GHz up to about 4GHz. The all core it sustains in a 12900k is 3.7GHz. Skylake at 3.7 beats Zen 3 at 2.7 (5995WX base clock). It's not a comparison, really, just an example to point out the implications of calling that performance level "weak".

 

[nicalandia]

Skylake at 3.7 beats Zen 3 at 2.7 (5995WX base clock).

Where are you getting those numbers from?

And why insist on the 5995WX? I mean does Intel has 64C/128T with a base clock of 3.7 Ghz? And at what type of work are you comparing both?

Would it be easier to just say a Zen3 at 2.7 Ghz has less performance than a Skylake at 3.7 Ghz at ISO Core account? Perhaps do a comparison with desktop parts? Cascade Lake Xeons are just no match for Zen3 based EPYC/ThreadRipper

By the way here are the IPC test performed on Zen3 and Comet Lake(skylake derivative 14++) Comet like sits right between Zen2 and Zen+ Zen3 is just a whole different beast.

AMD Ryzen 5000 IPC Performance Tested

IPC performance is a good indicator of a CPU's architecture efficiency, so we're checking out how Zen 3 compares against Intel's 10th-gen Core and AMD's progress with...

www.techspot.com

 

[Exist50]

I lost the OC lottery with my 1700, but due to anecdotal experiences the 1700 was a oc dud all around. So the 1800X was the better choice albeit it commanded a much higher price.

Perhaps they will release a 7800XD as a follow up of 5800XD

The 5800x in particular had the problem where it struggled to justify the large price gap vs the 5600x, leading to most recommending either a tier up or down. A smaller gap for the 7600x and 7700x solves that problem, and for the right price, could make the 8c the go-to gaming recommendation.

 

[tomatosummit]

The 5800x in particular had the problem where it struggled to justify the large price gap vs the 5600x, leading to most recommending either a tier up or down. A smaller gap for the 7600x and 7700x solves that problem, and for the right price, could make the 8c the go-to gaming recommendation.

The 5800x was only relevant because there was no availability on the 5600x or 5900x and no competition. The x800x skus have been the worst value for every ryzen generation followed closely by the x600x parts.
7700x coming the first round of cpus means competition.
They should just readjust the stack already and make the 7800 12 cores already. New socket new names.

 

[nicalandia]

The 5800x was only relevant because there was no availability on the 5600x or 5900x and no competition. The x800x skus have been the worst value for every ryzen generation followed closely by the x600x parts.
7700x coming the first round of cpus means competition.
They should just readjust the stack already and make the 7800 12 cores already. New socket new names.

3800XT Enters the Chat.

 

[Exist50]

They should just readjust the stack already and make the 7800 12 cores already. New socket new names.

I think they're probably reluctant to push 2 die configs that far down the stack. Will inevitably happen when they either go 3 die or increase the cores per die.

 

[SmokSmog]

ST will go to the Zen4 no doubt about it

Can you provide some numbers ? So you are telling me that Zen4 will have +35% single core gain over Zen3 ?

CB R20 ST
5950X = 640~
12900k = 768~
13900K ES (chinese review) = 862~

 

[eek2121]

I came hoping for some insightful posts. Instead, what I received was a few Intel trolls trolling the AMD forums. I can't even...😂🤣

The TDP discussion really got me going. AMD raises power limits to around 25W less than Raptor Lake and everyone freaks out, ignoring the fact that AMD is STILL going to beat Intel in perf/watt. That's what competitors do. They compete. You certainly don't cheer on second place in football or the olympics.

Oh, and the chip AMD demoed had a power limit of under 180W, for the record. 😉 (being general for obvious reasons)

 

[Markfw]

I came hoping for some insightful posts. Instead, what I received was a few Intel trolls trolling the AMD forums. I can't even...😂🤣

The TDP discussion really got me going. AMD raises power limits to around 25W less than Raptor Lake and everyone freaks out, ignoring the fact that AMD is STILL going to beat Intel in perf/watt. That's what competitors do. They compete. You certainly don't cheer on second place in football or the olympics.

Oh, and the chip AMD demoed had a power limit of under 180W, for the record. 😉 (being general for obvious reasons)

Exactly. The performance total increase for Zen4 (estimate) is in the range of 35%, but the power goes up 20% ? Its even better efficiency than the 5950x if it all pans out.

But trolls will be trolls.

 

[DrMrLordX]

We also don't know if AMD's implementation of TDP and PPT will remain the same on AM5.

 

[Henry swagger]

I came hoping for some insightful posts. Instead, what I received was a few Intel trolls trolling the AMD forums. I can't even...😂🤣

The TDP discussion really got me going. AMD raises power limits to around 25W less than Raptor Lake and everyone freaks out, ignoring the fact that AMD is STILL going to beat Intel in perf/watt. That's what competitors do. They compete. You certainly don't cheer on second place in football or the olympics.

Oh, and the chip AMD demoed had a power limit of under 180W, for the record. 😉 (being general for obvious reasons)

Wait for reviews d'not assume

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Hyperthread lift is far smaller than skylake cores. And for marketing 24 cores > 16

Marketing is one thing, but If you have some basic understanding of these CPUs, then It's a different story.
Let's keep in mind that Skylake lift is also far smaller than Zen4.
I will compare 8P16E32T 13900k vs 16C32T 7950X
It's just an example, keep in mind It's not accurate.
P-core: 100 points
P-core HT: 25 points
E-core: 60 points
Zen4: 100 points
Zen4 HT: 25 points

Threads	13900k	7950X
1-4	100-400 (100%->100%)	100-400 (100%->100%)
5-8	500-800 (100%->100%)	500-800 (100%->100%)
9-12	860-1040 (100%->100%)	900-1200 (105%->115%)
13-16	1100-1280 (100%->100%)	1300-1600 (118%->125%)
17-20	1340-1520 (100%->100%)	1625-1700 (121%->112%)
21-24	1580-1760 (100%->100%)	1725-1800 (109%->102%)
25-28	1785-1860 (100%->100%)	1825-1900 (102%->102%)
29-32	1885-1960 (100%->100%)	1925-2000 (102%->102%)

If you can use >=9 threads then Zen4 is clearly a better option, unless you can use >=24 threads, then It's comparable. At 16 threads It's 25% faster!

 

[biostud]

Zen 4 initial models 'leaked';

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-con...0x-ryzen-7-7700x-and-ryzen-5-7600x-processors

Sounds like an 8 core Zen 4 is going to be a cheaper sku. At least initially. Maybe they'll be doing a 7800X3D later on in the year.

Or maybe they are only doing a 7800X3D, and not a regular 7800X.

 

[John Carmack]

Wait for reviews d'not assume

Wise words.

Intel Raptor Lake CPUs Could Be The First x86 Chips To Offer 6 GHz Clock Frequencies, New Overclocking Features Detailed In XTU Update

Intel 13th Gen Raptor Lake CPUs could be the first chips to achieve 6 GHz clock frequencies and also offer brand new overclocking features.

wccftech.com

6ghz for the i9 😏

 

[gruffi]

No only are they both 32t, but the RPL has 16 very weak cores. I don;t think they are even to 8 of the P-cores.

It depends. If your application is memory bottlenecked then those peasant cores won't offer much less performance than current p-cores. If your application is compute bottlenecked then the difference can be huge. As some reviews showed you will need more than two of those peasant cores to compensate one p-core + SMT on average in MT.

ST will go to the Zen4 no doubt about it.

It would be nice if it was. But I doubt it. It should be a very tight race though. My guess is that Intel might have a slight advantage in ST with RPL because they still have a wider pipeline compared to Zen 4. AMD isn't going much wider before Zen 5.

Can you provide some numbers ? So you are telling me that Zen4 will have +35% single core gain over Zen3 ?

CB R20 ST
5950X = 640~
12900k = 768~
13900K ES (chinese review) = 862~

CB is everything but a good indicator for average ST performance. I also wouldn't give much about any "leaked reviews". Those showed better scores for 12900K than in final reviews.