Speculation: Ryzen 4000 series/Zen 3

[moinmoin]

It wasn't, it's just annoying. And the worst part is that it was impossible to get Vermeer at MSRP for a long time, except maybe a 5800x.

I keep thinking you are exaggerating where it isn't necessary. Products not being available at MSRP due to higher demand than supply is something stores and scalpers profit of, not AMD. And complaits about higher MSRPs kind of fall flat when prices fall below it once availability is actually there. There are other companies that ensure their products stick to the MSRP regardless of the age, and AMD historically hasn't been one of them.

Could it be some security fixes to combat newly found flaws? Such as this:

Possibly, though one would expect such fixes to require more changes than doable in a new stepping to fix.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I keep thinking you are exaggerating where it isn't necessary. Products not being available at MSRP due to higher demand than supply is something stores and scalpers profit of, not AMD.

Yet. They're watching the scalp action. I predicted the price increase of Vermeer based on the XT release. I got slagged for it. I was right anyway. So . . . nah, I'm not a genius. It's just easy to see how market forces can change things. Sooner or later AMD will figure out how to scalp their own product. It worked for Ticketmaster. The question is: how far will they go in that direction? Retailers are already doing it with AMD's own products. Even Microcenter did it, albeit only sporadically. What will AMD do in response?

And complaits about higher MSRPs kind of fall flat when prices fall below it once availability is actually there.

That's somewhat surprising, and I've yet to sort out exactly why this is happening or towards what end, except maybe as a "we're sorry we couldn't supply product for six months, here's a discount" kind of thing. Either that or they're making a volume push which is an interesting play given current circumstances.

edit: I went and took a look at eBay prices for Vermeer and I was a bit shocked. Prices are plummeting on everything but the 5900x which is still apparently quite difficult to get. Scalpers are getting rinsed. Maybe THAT'S what AMD is up to hmm?

 

[Ajay]

"No performance improvements" indicates AMD hasn't gone out of their way to change anything specifically for higher frequencies in the design or the packaging. But seeing as it comes a while after the B0 stepping, I guess on average B2 stepping dies may clock better just down to node maturity improving.

The change could be just an errata fix (especially if it's for Milan) or minor tweaks to take advantage of the maturity of N7 to increase the number of chiplet that bin high. What ever it is, it was worth it to AMD to pay for some new masks (not a full set).

 

[Ajay]

Well, there's a statement from AMD that there is no new functionality or improved performance, so...
I'm guessing it's a patch for the new security vulnerabilities in x86 processors. boo hoo.

 

[firewolfsm]

I doubt it's that. They seemed more difficult to fix than that, and I think AMD would have promoted the fact if they did manage to fix that so quickly.

 

[uzzi38]

Well, there's a statement from AMD that there is no new functionality or improved performance, so...
I'm guessing it's a patch for the new security vulnerabilities in x86 processors. boo hoo.

I still think it's something to do with improving yields. With DDR5 volumes not expected to outstrip DDR4 until mid 2023, Zen 3 is going to be an extremely long lived core (and Milan will be a very long lived platform).

Investing in optimising yields now makes a lot of sense given that it'll be saving them money over the next 2-3 years and helping maximising volumes as well.

 

[Ajay]

I still think it's something to do with improving yields. With DDR5 volumes not expected to outstrip DDR4 until mid 2023, Zen 3 is going to be an extremely long lived core (and Milan will be a very long lived platform).

Investing in optimising yields now makes a lot of sense given that it'll be saving them money over the next 2-3 years and helping maximising volumes as well.

I agree, but AMD is denying it for now. Maybe they don't want to scare off buyers as they are on the brink of being able to meet worldwide demand.

 

[lobz]

In your mind ,AMD needs to sell a Ferrari LaFerrari performance - like cpu while having a price of Toyota Camry , right?

Well, at least you got a bit of recognition by firing a cheap shot in the dark, considering I never thought or said anything even remotely close to what you mentioned. One of the fastest ignores I've ever handed out, well done and welcome to the forum, I guess?

 

[B-Riz]

I agree, but AMD is denying it for now. Maybe they don't want to scare off buyers as they are on the brink of being able to meet worldwide demand.

Yeah, I would think Intel is quietly expelling bricks from the behind thinking about non-X Zen3, because, they are unlocked, and, can run on B450 / X470 boards.

So one of AMD's biggest blunders, not wanting to support older chip-sets, then back pedaling, just became a huge huge advantage.

It may take a bit longer for them to come out after the OEM orders are filled, but holy guacamole, Zen3 for $200 or less is going to be a blood bath for Intel.

And when it does drop, all us early adopters that spent the big $ are going to look silly

 

[moinmoin]

And when it does drop, all us early adopters that spent the big $ are going to look silly

Nah, it's a good early access entry fee. It's already over half a year since the launch, and we still have only the same four choices from the launch. At least now that availability improves prices are falling.

 

[eek2121]

AMD is finally bringing Zen 3 support to older boards, from AnandTech:

AMD’s final product-related announcement of the morning focuses on motherboards – and specifically, older motherboards.

After almost a year and a half since the launch of AMD’s first Ryzen 5000 (Zen 3) CPUs, AMD is finally bringing official support for the newest Ryzen CPUs to AMD’s older Zen/Zen+ 300 series chipsets. Since AMD has used the same socket AM4 throughout the entire run of the Ryzen family of chips thus far, Ryzen 5000 chips have always been able to fit and electrically work in older motherboards. However, those older boards have lacked the necessary BIOS support to boot the chips.

All of this has made adding support for the newest Ryzen chips a longstanding request from existing AMD users, to give them an upgrade path for their existing boards. But it’s also one AMD has been less than eager to deliver on, as the 300 series chipset is multiple generations older than the Ryzen 5000 chips. Even AMD’s support for Ryzen 3000 CPUs on the 300 series chipset has been piecemeal at best.

But all of this is finally changing, starting next month. AMD is finally bringing a degree of official support for the Ryzen 5000 family on AMD 300 series chipset motherboards, starting with AGESA 1.2.0.7. For 300 series chipset motherboards, that version of AMD’s BIOS module will add what the company is terming “beta” support for the Ryzen 5000 family. For those boards that can meet Ryzen 5000’s power requirements, it will be possible to boot the chips in conjunction with the new AGESA.

 

[jpiniero]

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ryzen-5-5600-and-ryzen-5-5500-review

Toms has a review of the 5600. Compared to the 5600X it is worse but in most cases only a couple percent. However If the 5600X is going to be only $20 more (or less) it'd be kind of a tossup between the two. Sort of reaffirms what I thought in that the 5600X will be gone.

 

[LightningZ71]

Essentially, if you're still rocking a 1600/2600 (or lower core count CPU) on a 300/400 series board that has a bios upgrade available, the 5500 is an excellent choice for a decent upgrade without having to gut the system. I don't see the point of the 5600 non-x for anyone that doesn't have a 500 series board, and if you have a 500 series board, you probably have a faster processor already. If you're buying brand new today and want to get the absolute cheapest AMD rig with PCIe 4.0 support and don't want to go with a used CPU, then the 5600 is going to be worth it to you.

I'm quite interested to see where the 5700/4700 eventually drop price wise for a decent, cheap home server build (for a system that already has a video card available)...

 

[eek2121]

Essentially, if you're still rocking a 1600/2600 (or lower core count CPU) on a 300/400 series board that has a bios upgrade available, the 5500 is an excellent choice for a decent upgrade without having to gut the system. I don't see the point of the 5600 non-x for anyone that doesn't have a 500 series board, and if you have a 500 series board, you probably have a faster processor already. If you're buying brand new today and want to get the absolute cheapest AMD rig with PCIe 4.0 support and don't want to go with a used CPU, then the 5600 is going to be worth it to you.

I'm quite interested to see where the 5700/4700 eventually drop price wise for a decent, cheap home server build (for a system that already has a video card available)...

If the price drops down to $250 or so, I'd love to pick one up for an HTPC system

 

[DrMrLordX]

Sort of reaffirms what I thought in that the 5600X will be gone.

That is possible. I think it's the "odd man out" here since AMD may not replace that SKU with Raphael, at least not directly.

 

[burninatortech4]

Essentially, if you're still rocking a 1600/2600 (or lower core count CPU) on a 300/400 series board that has a bios upgrade available, the 5500 is an excellent choice for a decent upgrade without having to gut the system. I don't see the point of the 5600 non-x for anyone that doesn't have a 500 series board, and if you have a 500 series board, you probably have a faster processor already. If you're buying brand new today and want to get the absolute cheapest AMD rig with PCIe 4.0 support and don't want to go with a used CPU, then the 5600 is going to be worth it to you.

I'm quite interested to see where the 5700/4700 eventually drop price wise for a decent, cheap home server build (for a system that already has a video card available)...

I'm definitely moving my Ryzen 5 1600 DC rig to the 5500 if my A320m HDV gets a BIOS update for it.

 

[Ranulf]

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ryzen-5-5600-and-ryzen-5-5500-review

Toms has a review of the 5600. Compared to the 5600X it is worse but in most cases only a couple percent. However If the 5600X is going to be only $20 more (or less) it'd be kind of a tossup between the two. Sort of reaffirms what I thought in that the 5600X will be gone.

Yeah, from the review's numbers I'm not seeing any really great motivation to buy the marginally cheaper chips for upgrades. The 5500 doesn't look that good compared to the 12400 either.

Edit: Newegg has the new chips in stock now. 5700X, 5600, 5500.

 

[scineram]

That is possible. I think it's the "odd man out" here since AMD may not replace that SKU with Raphael, at least not directly.

You think there will be no 7600X? Crazy.

 

[burninatortech4]

Essentially, if you're still rocking a 1600/2600 (or lower core count CPU) on a 300/400 series board that has a bios upgrade available, the 5500 is an excellent choice for a decent upgrade without having to gut the system. I don't see the point of the 5600 non-x for anyone that doesn't have a 500 series board, and if you have a 500 series board, you probably have a faster processor already. If you're buying brand new today and want to get the absolute cheapest AMD rig with PCIe 4.0 support and don't want to go with a used CPU, then the 5600 is going to be worth it to you.

I'm quite interested to see where the 5700/4700 eventually drop price wise for a decent, cheap home server build (for a system that already has a video card available)...

5500 could be better perf/$ but it's a perfect upgrade for 1600/2600 systems. It definitely has a place.

Just needs BIOS support since it's Cezanne based.

 

[DrMrLordX]

You think there will be no 7600X? Crazy.

Yes, I think there will be no 7600X. Or at least I'd be a little surprised if AMD bothered with a 6c Raphael at launch. There might be one later.

 

[jpiniero]

Yes, I think there will be no 7600X. Or at least I'd be a little surprised if AMD bothered with a 6c Raphael at launch. There might be one later.

Depends on yields I think, which on N5 I've heard are really good which is bad news for the 7600X. People will be pissed if Zen 4 starts at $500+.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Depends on yields I think, which on N5 I've heard are really good which is bad news for the 7600X. People will be pissed if Zen 4 starts at $500+.

I was thinking the same thing. There will be practically no reason for AMD to sell a 6c part, especially since they can push budget buyers on to what's left of AM4 for 6-12 months. Or they can cover it with AM5 Rembrandt. Or both. Regardless I do not think the baseline Raphael 8c part will be $500.

 

[jpiniero]

I was thinking the same thing. There will be practically no reason for AMD to sell a 6c part, especially since they can push budget buyers on to what's left of AM4 for 6-12 months. Or they can cover it with AM5 Rembrandt. Or both. Regardless I do not think the baseline Raphael 8c part will be $500.

The 5800X's original MSRP was $449, and their costs are going way up, soo...

 

[Mopetar]

AMD could sell Ryzen CPUs for less and still be profitable. Their biggest cost is the opportunity cost of not using that chiplet for an Epyc CPU.

The higher prices were also because they had Intel squarely beat across the board. If Intel remains competitive then so will AMD's prices.

 

[DrMrLordX]

The 5800X's original MSRP was $449, and their costs are going way up, soo...

Yeah but if the baseline Raphael is 8c, it might be closer to the 5600x launch price. Maybe. Really depends on how far up the product stack they go with different SKUs.