Speculation: Ryzen 3000 series

[Markfw]

IIRC, the physical socket is identical. The only difference is that TR4 boards have less wiring. Especially now with the IO die, you should expect workstation focused Epyc this time, with 32 cores and a relatively high frequency but it'll be $$$$.

I would like to see 64 core TR's.

 

[killster1]

I’ll agree you are spot on about memory vendors being cheap & trying to obscure but seems like time and time again it’s shown the more memory Is better than less lower latency memory. I’m not sure if that is true with Ryzen but I suspect it is.
Currently on 2x16GB sticks there’s is effectively a $80-$100 Samsung B die tax on any B die sticks.

Currently on Newegg 32GB 3200 cheapest ram is $150
Cheapest 3200 b die is cas 14 assumed b die is $270

besides using VM's and certain games what uses more than 8gb?

well i still havnt tried any games but i have been running 2x4gb 3000@15 that i grabbed for 25$. i keep looking at 2x8gb bdie for less than 100 (around 90-110) used on ebay. even some RGB heh. there is no shortage of bdie out there, yea companies lately have been geared toward the 2x16gb for 130-150 getting those people who just want a big GB/$ ratio. Its the same with all products some people forget the specs and just go for a big size like a qlc drive vs tlc people see the 2tb for 100$ less and bite.

im holding out for bdie 2x16gb for 200 or less. maybe 2x8gb that i can re-purpose later.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

besides using VM's and certain games what uses more than 8gb?

well i still havnt tried any games but i have been running 2x4gb 3000@15 that i grabbed for 25$. i keep looking at 2x8gb bdie for less than 100 (around 90-110) used on ebay. even some RGB heh. there is no shortage of bdie out there, yea companies lately have been geared toward the 2x16gb for 130-150 getting those people who just want a big GB/$ ratio. Its the same with all products some people forget the specs and just go for a big size like a qlc drive vs tlc people see the 2tb for 100$ less and bite.

im holding out for bdie 2x16gb for 200 or less. maybe 2x8gb that i can re-purpose later.

They’ve stopped making b die, $200 may require a good deal of luck and timing.

 

[Markfw]

besides using VM's and certain games what uses more than 8gb?

well i still havnt tried any games but i have been running 2x4gb 3000@15 that i grabbed for 25$. i keep looking at 2x8gb bdie for less than 100 (around 90-110) used on ebay. even some RGB heh. there is no shortage of bdie out there, yea companies lately have been geared toward the 2x16gb for 130-150 getting those people who just want a big GB/$ ratio. Its the same with all products some people forget the specs and just go for a big size like a qlc drive vs tlc people see the 2tb for 100$ less and bite.

im holding out for bdie 2x16gb for 200 or less. maybe 2x8gb that i can re-purpose later.

I have had my 2990wx run out of memory with 32 gig installed. I need to get it back to 64. BOINC will do that on some projects. Also, my sons CAD program for work goes past 16 by itself.

You need to stop thinking the world revolves around PC gaming.

 

[Zucker2k]

16 characters

 

[scannall]

I’ll agree you are spot on about memory vendors being cheap & trying to obscure but seems like time and time again it’s shown the more memory Is better than less lower latency memory. I’m not sure if that is true with Ryzen but I suspect it is.
Currently on 2x16GB sticks there’s is effectively a $80-$100 Samsung B die tax on any B die sticks.

Currently on Newegg 32GB 3200 cheapest ram is $150
Cheapest 3200 b die is cas 14 assumed b die is $270

I have a 2600X. Bought cheap Hynix 3200 ram. My Asrock motherboard would only get it to 3000. But this MSI motherboard gets 3200 without have to fiddle around. Drop it in, select the profile and go.

 

[Zerm]

I meant that in the "near" future Intel will add more to the market and if TR can no longer compete with Zen or Zen+ then it's a tough choice to buy into x399 if there's no prospect of a 32core better performing Zen2 TR coming.

In the near future, intel is irrelevant. This has been known for some time. They will only achieve relevancy maybe towards the end of 2020/2021.
Threadripper competes by doublng the PCIE slots and memory channels of Ryzen. Epyc competes by doubling that of Threadripper.

My 1950x has more I/O than the 3rd gen ryzen (double in fact) that is being announced in a couple of days. That will never change. It's a platform discriminator. Every company has one. Even though AMD is innovating and doubling core count like mad women/men, the i/o is the discriminator. AMD has drawn their line in the sand. You will get higher core counts but not I/O.
> then it's a tough choice to buy into x399
It's not. Never has been.
> then it's a tough choice to buy into x399 if there's no prospect of a 32core better performing Zen2 TR
Those who need the I/O buy threadripper. What's so hard to understand about this? They can put 32 cores on AM4 and threadripper still will make sense because of the I/O. That also being said, I am still scratching my head as to how they will feed 16 cores with Dual channel. I can think of tons of workflows including mine that will make the new Gen ryzen grind its knees trying to keep up with even a 1950x. In that I realize, Ryzen is truly a consumer platform (a powerful one but consumer), threadripper is workstation, and epyc is server. Quite easy to see and AMD flawlessly executed in all three camps. If a user executes consumer flows, they should be content with the monster AMD provided. The thought process doesn't carry over to workstation/server grade platforms. So, they should stop trying. The comments make zero sense.

 

[Zerm]

I’ll agree you are spot on about memory vendors being cheap & trying to obscure but seems like time and time again it’s shown the more memory Is better than less lower latency memory. I’m not sure if that is true with Ryzen but I suspect it is.
Currently on 2x16GB sticks there’s is effectively a $80-$100 Samsung B die tax on any B die sticks.

Currently on Newegg 32GB 3200 cheapest ram is $150
Cheapest 3200 b die is cas 14 assumed b die is $270

You get what you pay for. If you're doing lots of random access, latency will most definitely matter and that tax is pennies. Not to mention the fact that people are missing the fact that b-die can be heavily overclocked to exotic higher latency timings. Few consumers know what their workflows are, few push the boundaries of their platforms, few have requirements that cause them to drop into the details of subtimings. Throughput/latency have an inverse relationship. There are tons of articles about the diminishing returns beyond 3200CL14/3600CL16 w/ tight timings. It's cool for bragging rights to talk about your ram speed but that rarely translates to real world performance. Latency however definitely matters. The sweet spot is 3200CL14/3600CL16. That's not changing anytime soon. B-die has the ability to be clocked to insane rates if you allow for higher timings which is why they are sought after. They're swiss army knife modules that are worth the price if you indeed need them.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I have a 2600X. Bought cheap Hynix 3200 ram. My Asrock motherboard would only get it to 3000. But this MSI motherboard gets 3200 without have to fiddle around. Drop it in, select the profile and go.

That’s what I’m talking about. People shouldn’t be expected to use some Ryzen spreadsheet to figure out what ram & what speed. They should be able to choose from the vendor qualified list and go or be able to buy any normal big brand and have the ram work at its rated speed automatically.

 

[Zerm]

HyperX Predator DDR4 4000, runs 15-15-15-32 @ 1.35v and has 24/7 since December. Aorus Gaming 7 x370 with 8086k, can't be happier.

The 4333 kit was not nearly as happy.

X370 is AMD
Z370 is Intel. 8086k is an intel processor.
This is an AMD thread not an Intel thread.
On Intel's architecture, ram speed is decoupled from the internal CPU bus thus why you can run such clocks/timings. As a result of being decoupled, the ram speed increases have little effect on actual performance. The same will hold true for Ryzen if they go down this route. Thus it being a cool thing on paper but nothing to do w/ actual performance.

HyperX Predator DDR4 4000, runs 15-15-15-32
on which platform? Link to the retailer page for the actual modules you're referring to and confirmed stable operation (memtest 3 run + prime954 24 hours). Even so, you're referring to Intel which has horrible memory performance scaling for the very reason I defined above. The same will hold true for Ryzen, if again, they go down this route. Great because you can run any lower binned bargain ram you can find... Not great because you're shut out of any notable performance difference between the different modules.

 

[Zerm]

IIRC, the physical socket is identical. The only difference is that TR4 boards have less wiring. Especially now with the IO die, you should expect workstation focused Epyc this time, with 32 cores and a relatively high frequency but it'll be $$$$.

Everyone knows the socket is the same. I actually own one.

If there's no wiring to 1/2 the CPU's feature on EPYC then what's the point along w/ the lower clocks EPYC runs at because of those features? The new Threadripper will be based on the new design w/ an I/O die. It wont be a literal EPYC processor from previous gen. That was the point of my comment. Such an dea is just uninformed and not thought through. People should think before they post not throw random thoughts out.

 

[LightningZ71]

Ryzen 3xxx could have improved I/O EASILY as compared to 1xxx and 2xxx just due to the switch to PCI-E 4.0.

All it would take is a motherboard vendor to take the risk:
Wire the 16 PCIe-4.0 lanes from the processor to a PLX chip and have it split out to four PCI-E X-16 slots. They can configure as X16 4.0 - 0 - x16 4.0 - 0, or x16 3.0 - x16 3.0 - x16 3.0 - x16 3.0 or some other combination with a 200% subscription. Or, if you don't want to do any PLX buffering, and have no oversubscription, have them do 1 X 16 4.0, 2 X x8 4.0, 2 X x16 3.0, 4 X x8 3.0, etc. In MANY MANY cases, there is no real need for full x16 PCI3.0 from configurations that have 4 cards in them. There are precious few Threadrippers out there that have more than 4 cards in them. This also discounts the fact that the X570 chipset itself is also offering 2 X x4 4.0 slots as well.

That's a TON of I/O for a majority of the HEDT market. Yes, absolutely, there are edge cases out there that need even more I/O, and 64 PCI-E lanes coming out of TR is still going to find a few takers. The problem is, can you show me even one TR4 motherboard that has more than one x16 slots that's close enough to the socket to actually run at PCIe-4.0? I've looked at a couple, and it looks like a few of them may not even have the first slot close enough to the socket to run at 4.0. Granted, at this moment, that's not a huge deal, but it will be. If you really want that extra bandwidth to the CPUs, you're going to have to tear up your existing TR4 motherboards and put in at least one PLX chip to drive two slots. And, given the size of those boards, you'll likely need multiple PLX chips to run 3+. Now, granted, the above board that I proposed for AM4 might need more than one PLX chip to drive four slots as well if they can't get the distances to work, but, that'll still be cheaper than doing a TR4 board with more than one PCI-E 4.0 x16 slot.

The only MAJOR remaining advantages for TR4 over Ryzen 3xxx is double the memory bandwidth, which is somewhat hidden by the larger Caches on the Zen2 chips, and the much larger possible number of cores. That's it. Those are still big advantages, so there will be a market for them, but, I just don't see it being quite as pressing in the short term.

 

[Arkaign]

I have had my 2990wx run out of memory with 32 gig installed. I need to get it back to 64. BOINC will do that on some projects. Also, my sons CAD program for work goes past 16 by itself.

You need to stop thinking the world revolves around PC gaming.

Definitely. Helped a client make a nice Forex system with Threadripper 1920 and 32GB with RX470. Guy definitely not a gamer, but investment manager/etc, so he loves to have 40-120 tabs open along with his Forex and Outlook and streaming news. TR is outstanding for his workload, and his ram usage exceeds 16GB regularly.

 

[Zerm]

Ryzen 3xxx could have improved I/O EASILY as compared to 1xxx and 2xxx just due to the switch to PCI-E 4.0.

All it would take is a motherboard vendor to take the risk:
Wire the 16 PCIe-4.0 lanes from the processor to a PLX chip and have it split out to four PCI-E X-16 slots. They can configure as X16 4.0 - 0 - x16 4.0 - 0, or x16 3.0 - x16 3.0 - x16 3.0 - x16 3.0 or some other combination with a 200% subscription. Or, if you don't want to do any PLX buffering, and have no oversubscription, have them do 1 X 16 4.0, 2 X x8 4.0, 2 X x16 3.0, 4 X x8 3.0, etc.

I would have loved for them to use PLX Chips to break out and allow for higher I/O. Then I realized it wont happen because : Cost/Every company has discriminators between their product lines. AM4 will not be getting the I/O of threadripper, threadripper will not be getting the I/O of EPYC. That's the discriminator for AMD. Also, as it has been detailed, you do get break out from the chipset on AM4 from PCIE 4.0 to more broad based PCIE 3.0/etc. So, they gave you half of what you wanted.

In MANY MANY cases, there is no real need for full x16 PCI3.0 from configurations that have 4 cards in them.

Sure, but if you break it down or out it adds cost. Threadripper gives 8/16/8/16 + 3 dedicated nvme. If you need more I/O buy one. If you need more than that get EPYC which into the server market uses PLX switches.

There are precious few Threadrippers out there that have more than 4 cards in them.

I have 5 cards in mine (using the PCie 2.0 slot too) + 3 nvme drives. I beg to differ.
Again, if you have a need the platform, you have a need. If you don't, I don't think a person will understand or can comment on threadripper.

This also discounts the fact that the X570 chipset itself is also offering 2 X x4 4.0 slots as well.

I was excited about PCIE 4.0 like you because of expanded I/O breakouts. In its current form, I'm not sold on it. NVME on PCIE 4.0 is not a selling point for me but will be for some.

That's a TON of I/O for a majority of the HEDT market. Yes, absolutely, there are edge cases out there that need even more I/O, and 64 PCI-E lanes coming out of TR is still going to find a few takers. The problem is, can you show me even one TR4 motherboard that has more than one x16 slots that's close enough to the socket to actually run at PCIe-4.0? I've looked at a couple, and it looks like a few of them may not even have the first slot close enough to the socket to run at 4.0. Granted, at this moment, that's not a huge deal, but it will be.

Look at the pic. PCIE Gen4 slots board.. That's for Rome. Your statement is incorrect. Threadripper will get similar but cut down treatment.

If you really want that extra bandwidth to the CPUs, you're going to have to tear up your existing TR4 motherboards and put in at least one PLX chip to drive two slots. And, given the size of those boards, you'll likely need multiple PLX chips to run 3+. Now, granted, the above board that I proposed for AM4 might need more than one PLX chip to drive four slots as well if they can't get the distances to work, but, that'll still be cheaper than doing a TR4 board with more than one PCI-E 4.0 x16 slot.

See above. Where's the PLX switch?

The only MAJOR remaining advantages for TR4 over Ryzen 3xxx is double the memory bandwidth, which is somewhat hidden by the larger Caches on the Zen2 chips, and the much larger possible number of cores. That's it. Those are still big advantages, so there will be a market for them, but, I just don't see it being quite as pressing in the short term.

Why do people keep trying to re-write facts towards their own opinion? The discriminator is I/O and memory bandwidth. Something that has already been detailed.

This is literally the same amount of I/O but with Gen4. This doesn't suit my needs. I will literally buy a Threadripper over this if the price isn't right. I literally need two Ryzen systems tied together with high speed enterprise nics to even come close to one threadripper. The same holds true above. There aren't even any PCIE 4.0 mainstream products.

X570 :

Isn't that different from :

I hit the same I/O restrictions. What are people talking about? That 3rd PCIE slot btw will likely only be usable if you don't use other I/O. You're getting the same package but with PCIE 4.0 labels and higher core count. For some this will be a godsend. For me, it's somewhat of the same package

 

[TheGiant]

Definitely. Helped a client make a nice Forex system with Threadripper 1920 and 32GB with RX470. Guy definitely not a gamer, but investment manager/etc, so he loves to have 40-120 tabs open along with his Forex and Outlook and streaming news. TR is outstanding for his workload, and his ram usage exceeds 16GB regularly.

definitely

what I said in earlier posts that most of the 16C workloads don't benefit from 4CH memory for the "usual" HEDT
for me that doesn't count (CFD)
what I am saying is, AMD should wait with 16C with am4 cause of 3 reasons

• puts 16C TR2950X obsolete (ppl got it because affordable 16C highperformance, not because 4CH and 64 pci-e lanaes, ask around...)
• gives signal, that your HEDT isn't going to last long
• fires all the bullets, I really doubt one can go beyond 16C on desktop with real no DC/Workstation usage, where we talk about something else

16C am4 is ofc from pure consumer an excellent option, but imo AMD should wait not to fire all the bullets they have

 

[killster1]

I have had my 2990wx run out of memory with 32 gig installed. I need to get it back to 64. BOINC will do that on some projects. Also, my sons CAD program for work goes past 16 by itself.

You need to stop thinking the world revolves around PC gaming.

Did i mention CAD workstation?
i dont even play games, you mention CAD programs ummmhmmmm yea sorry i dont use this computer for that..

why would you use 8gb on a 2990wx? using 8gb for now for fun it was 25$ from same person who sold the 2700x all the encoding and things i do nothing has used even close to 8gb and the pc is very fast with 8gb.. not because i cant afford 16gb /32gb of ram. (tho i think its fun to shop for good deals cough cough 32gb bdie for 200 haha) Even with Bdie i doubt it would speed up anything much. id bet if you use more than 8gb you are on a workstation or game station and not a normal user.

 

[Zerm]

definitely

what I said in earlier posts that most of the 16C workloads don't benefit from 4CH memory for the "usual" HEDT
for me that doesn't count (CFD)
what I am saying is, AMD should wait with 16C with am4 cause of 3 reasons

• puts 16C TR2950X obsolete (ppl got it because affordable 16C highperformance, not because 4CH and 64 pci-e lanaes, ask around...)
• gives signal, that your HEDT isn't going to last long
• fires all the bullets, I really doubt one can go beyond 16C on desktop with real no DC/Workstation usage, where we talk about something else

16C am4 is ofc from pure consumer an excellent option, but imo AMD should wait not to fire all the bullets they have

I'm sorry but zero of your reasons make any sense.

definitely
> (ppl got it because affordable 16C highperformance, not because 4CH and 64 pci-e lanaes, ask around...)

Good, then they're set. If they want more CPU only performance, they can downgrade to AM4 and sell me their existing system for cheap.. and when I say cheap I mean $400 max for their 2950x and $200 for their motherboard Max. Surprise, they end up literally downgrading with no money left in their pocket. I own a 1950x setup. I'm not going to downgrade. I might upgrade my Ryzen nodes.

> gives signal, that your HEDT isn't going to last long

Gives no signal. I literally don't care what is offered in another market segment. I bought a threadripper setup because I needed every aspect of it. I bought it when it first came out. I paid $1,000 for a 1950x. I could literally care less about what comes out after. I can buy the same process for half as much now.. All that does is make me excited about buying another. My system is not obsolete. It wont be obsoleted on Monday. I am happy that AMD is pushing the envelope so hard. They're not going to wait. They're innovating FAST. That excites me.

fires all the bullets, I really doubt one can go beyond 16C on desktop with real no DC/Workstation usage, where we talk about something else

Huh? AMD is slated to push into 128 cores into the coming years..
Innovate or die. If you fire all of your bullets and there is no more to do then guess what? A consumer goes to the store and buys the best that you have to offer over and over. Do you buy toilet paper declaring charmin fired all their bullets? If you have a need and you want the best, you got to the store and buy it over and over and over again.

I feel a lot of people are unaware how to interpret break neck innovation.. probably because Intel has abused them for so long. You innovate in tech or you die. Period. End of story. There is no logic behind waiting because your competitor wont. Intel is learning the hard way. That reminds me to put all of my remaining intel rigs up on ebay this weekend. Time to get rid of these insecure trash heaps. Intel wont be getting money from me until they provide a better value and get their act together. They're literally not on the radar. Intel did what you suggested and abused their customers and they're now paying a heavy price. AMD has kicked them in the throat and popped out the other end and now they're going to pile drive them in every market segment. So much for waiting... Think a little bit more about what you're saying.

 

[Markfw]

Did i mention CAD workstation?
i dont even play games, you mention CAD programs ummmhmmmm yea sorry i dont use this computer for that..

why would you use 8gb on a 2990wx? using 8gb for now for fun it was 25$ from same person who sold the 2700x all the encoding and things i do nothing has used even close to 8gb and the pc is very fast with 8gb.. not because i cant afford 16gb /32gb of ram. (tho i think its fun to shop for good deals cough cough 32gb bdie for 200 haha) Even with Bdie i doubt it would speed up anything much. id bet if you use more than 8gb you are on a workstation or game station and not a normal user.

Of course its a workstation, why else would I buy an $1800 CPU with 32 cores/64 threads ? I use all 64 threads, and it sucks ram. I use more than 16 gig every day, and sometimes more than 32.

 

[TheGiant]

ok sir, you won the internet
how is that you remind me of a user that was here recently....
from technical point of view, you are right, but not from business

anyway, someone got any new leaks of ryzen 3K

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Of course its a workstation, why else would I buy an $1800 CPU with 32 cores/64 threads ? I use all 64 threads, and it sucks ram. I use more than 16 gig every day, and sometimes more than 32.

So my weird obsession with having 32 gigs for my next build isn't totally crazy?
I don't need a work station, I do game, I don't have hundreds of tabs open, I do typically own machines for a looooonnnngggg time. This one I am typing on will be 10 years old in August.

 

[Markfw]

So my weird obsession with having 32 gigs for my next build isn't totally crazy?
I don't need a work station, I do game, I don't have hundreds of tabs open, I do typically own machines for a looooonnnngggg time. This one I am typing on will be 10 years old in August.

Well, I think that in the same RAM "era" meaning now DDR4, you can never have too much. Look for sales. Now when DDR5 starts on the horizon, you have to stop.

 

[Hans Gruber]

Well, I think that in the same RAM "era" meaning now DDR4, you can never have too much. Look for sales. Now when DDR5 starts on the horizon, you have to stop.

Safe to say with 12core or 16core Zen 2. 32GB of ram should be the baseline for new builds?

 

[JasonLD]

I'm sorry but zero of your reasons make any sense.

Good, then they're set. If they want more CPU only performance, they can downgrade to AM4 and sell me their existing system for cheap.. and when I say cheap I mean $400 max for their 2950x and $200 for their motherboard Max. Surprise, they end up literally downgrading with no money left in their pocket. I own a 1950x setup. I'm not going to downgrade. I might upgrade my Ryzen nodes.

Gives no signal. I literally don't care what is offered in another market segment. I bought a threadripper setup because I needed every aspect of it. I bought it when it first came out. I paid $1,000 for a 1950x. I could literally care less about what comes out after. I can buy the same process for half as much now.. All that does is make me excited about buying another. My system is not obsolete. It wont be obsoleted on Monday. I am happy that AMD is pushing the envelope so hard. They're not going to wait. They're innovating FAST. That excites me.

Huh? AMD is slated to push into 128 cores into the coming years..
Innovate or die. If you fire all of your bullets and there is no more to do then guess what? A consumer goes to the store and buys the best that you have to offer over and over. Do you buy toilet paper declaring charmin fired all their bullets? If you have a need and you want the best, you got to the store and buy it over and over and over again.

I feel a lot of people are unaware how to interpret break neck innovation.. probably because Intel has abused them for so long. You innovate in tech or you die. Period. End of story. There is no logic behind waiting because your competitor wont. Intel is learning the hard way. That reminds me to put all of my remaining intel rigs up on ebay this weekend. Time to get rid of these insecure trash heaps. Intel wont be getting money from me until they provide a better value and get their act together. They're literally not on the radar. Intel did what you suggested and abused their customers and they're now paying a heavy price. AMD has kicked them in the throat and popped out the other end and now they're going to pile drive them in every market segment. So much for waiting... Think a little bit more about what you're saying.

Oh, hello AMD influence marketer, Do you have any Ryzen 3rd gen info to share with us?

We do not allow users to call-out others as trolls, fanboys, shills, influencers, etc.

AT Mod Usandthem

 

[Markfw]

Safe to say with 12core or 16core Zen 2. 32GB of ram should be the baseline for new builds?

I really think it depends on the user. 16 gig might be "enough", but I think 8 gig on 12 or 16 cores is not enough. The rule I use is one gig per thread. Works most of the time.

 

[maddie]

TSMC 7nm+ volume production started. Zen 3 in 12-15 months. Slow your releases to play a slow game which no longer exists? Terrible business strategy.