Question Speculation: RDNA2 + CDNA Architectures thread

[uzzi38]

All die sizes are within 5mm^2. The poster here has been right on some things in the past afaik, and to his credit was the first to saying 505mm^2 for Navi21, which other people have backed up. Even still though, take the following with a pich of salt.

Navi21 - 505mm^2

Navi22 - 340mm^2

Navi23 - 240mm^2

Source is the following post: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/PC_Shopping/M.1588075782.A.C1E.html

 

[Mopetar]

RX 6700XT's MSRP is $479. So how likely is that any variant of N23 will cost less than $299?
Most gamers are not willing to spend $300 or more on a graphic card.

It probably depends how Navi 22 ultimately ends up getting binned. We can probably expect at least 3 models, similar to Navi 21. A 6700 (non-XT) and a 6600 (with the possibility of an XT varient as well) seem most likely. Navi 21 probably covers the 6500 XT and below.

In a normal year, Navi 21 probably has something at $250 or below, but this is not a normal year. It frankly doesn't matter if gamers aren't willing to spend $300 because someone else will. In fact they'll spend $600 on a card that shouldn't cost more than $300. Until that changes there isn't much of a reason to offer a mind-blowing entry level price. Honestly it would just make the inability to get the card hurt that much more.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

It probably depends how Navi 22 ultimately ends up getting binned. We can probably expect at least 3 models, similar to Navi 21. A 6700 (non-XT) and a 6600 (with the possibility of an XT varient as well) seem most likely. Navi 23 probably covers the 6500 XT and below.

If Navi23 has 32CU then there won't be 3 models of a GPU with only 40CU.

In a normal year, Navi 23 probably has something at $250 or below, but this is not a normal year. It frankly doesn't matter if gamers aren't willing to spend $300 because someone else will. In fact they'll spend $600 on a card that shouldn't cost more than $300. Until that changes there isn't much of a reason to offer a mind-blowing entry level price. Honestly it would just make the inability to get the card hurt that much more.

Then there is also no reason to release N23 at least for desktop. Instead, they should make only N22 and N23 with their limited wafer allocation.
With how things look I will be surprised, If N23 has a model costing only $279-299.
Without releasing N24 the sub $250 market is dead, you can't buy anything new.
I hope AMD or Nvidia don't plan to release anything with less than 6GB Vram, this amount is already problematic not to mention only 4GB.

 

[Glo.]

-I suspect it's something that was designed for Apple or to fit some design parameters for a large OEM and in classic AMD form they won't let any custom design work go to waste and we'll see the chip shoehorned into a discreet design.

From the looks of it, AMD would have been able to cover the entire range with an 80/40/20 CU layout + respective 72/32/12CU cut down designs.

N24 is not for Apple only, and never was designed for Apple.

The problem with N24 is AMD still hasn't decided whether or not they bring this GPU to the desktop market. They can. Easily. But will they?

RX 6700XT's MSRP is $479. So how likely is that any variant of N23 will cost less than $299?
Most gamers are not willing to spend $300 or more on a graphic card.

Very likely that N23 is below 300$ MSRP on all of its SKUs.

 

[Mopetar]

Very likely that N23 is below 300$ MSRP on all of its SKUs.

Full die Navi 22 is $480. I would imagine there's a 6700 (non-XT) for $400, but without another even more cutdown Navi 22 part to slot in at $350 or thereabouts, AMD is leaving a lot of massive holes in the pricing of their lineup.

If you can get Navi 23 to hit the same performance as the 5700 XT in 1080p you definitely charge $300 for it, especially in the current market.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Very likely that N23 is below 300$ MSRP on all of its SKUs.

It's true that RTX 3060 is $329 MSRP and the strongest N23 should be more or less on par with It, so N23 can't be priced above that.
Maybe It will look like this:
RX 6700 XT $479 vs RTX 3070 $499
RX 6700 $379 vs RTX 3060Ti $399
RX 6600 XT $309 vs RTX 3060 $329
....

 

[Glo.]

Full die Navi 22 is $480. I would imagine there's a 6700 (non-XT) for $400, but without another even more cutdown Navi 22 part to slot in at $350 or thereabouts, AMD is leaving a lot of massive holes in the pricing of their lineup.

If you can get Navi 23 to hit the same performance as the 5700 XT in 1080p you definitely charge $300 for it, especially in the current market.

RX 6600 XT already leaked in EEC and it has 12 GB VRAM. Which suggests this is based on Navi 22 die.

It's true that RTX 3060 is $329 MSRP and the strongest N23 should be more or less on par with It, so N23 can't be priced above that.
Maybe It will look like this:
RX 6700 XT $479 vs RTX 3070 $499
RX 6700 $379 vs RTX 3060Ti $399
RX 6600 XT $309 vs RTX 3060 $329
....

6600 XT is based on N22 die, and has 12 GB VRAM.

So everything below this GPU is reserved for N23.

 

[Mopetar]

RX 6600 XT already leaked in EEC and it has 12 GB VRAM. Which suggests this is based on Navi 22 die.

6600 XT is based on N22 die, and has 12 GB VRAM.

So everything below this GPU is reserved for N23.

Do you suppose there's a 6700, or maybe just have similar evidence as to the existence of such a part? Alternatively there could be a 6600 if there's no 6700. What I'm getting at is how many products do we get out of Navi 22?

I suspect we get three cards out of Navi 22, even if it takes a while for all models to launch. However, there's still a lot of room between $480 and $300 if we assume Navi 23 slots in below that.

Assuming the top Navi 23 card is $300 it means cut down Navi 22 can be priced around $420 and $360 if there are 3 cards and AMD spaces them out in the price range.

If there's only one other Navi 22 card and it's the 6600 XT there's just too much room between $480 and $300 for them not to have at least one Navi 22 card peak above that.

 

[Glo.]

Do you suppose there's a 6700, or maybe just have similar evidence as to the existence of such a part? Alternatively there could be a 6600 if there's no 6700. What I'm getting at is how many products do we get out of Navi 22?

I suspect we get three cards out of Navi 22, even if it takes a while for all models to launch. However, there's still a lot of room between $480 and $300 if we assume Navi 23 slots in below that.

Assuming the top Navi 23 card is $300 it means cut down Navi 22 can be priced around $420 and $360 if there are 3 cards and AMD spaces them out in the price range.

If there's only one other Navi 22 card and it's the 6600 XT there's just too much room between $480 and $300 for them not to have at least one Navi 22 card peak above that.

You really expect me to know the stuff that hasn't been decided yet?

The SKUs that we know of for sure, based on EEC are:
6700 XT 12 GB, 6700 6 GB, 6600 XT 12 GB.

And thats it. AMD always has an option to change their SKUs.

 

[uzzi38]

There used to be plans for a 10GB N22 SKU but seems to have been completely yeeted since. Probably replaced by what's currently rumoured to be the 6600XT?

 

[DiogoDX]

EDIT: Wrong topic.

 

[Mopetar]

You really expect me to know the stuff that hasn't been decided yet?

No, but you follow it more close than I or a lot of other posters do so if anyone here would know it'd probably be you. You're basically like Google for Navi info, only without the extra "oge" and jumbled around a bit. Also I don't think you're trying to amass a horde of personal data on me to try to serve me ads I don't want to watch, so you've got that going for you too!

 

[Panino Manino]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1368997303495852046

https://twitter.com/x/status/1368997311850905608

 

[uzzi38]

Seems like the Nashiras have shown up in the news cycle once more.

Ignore the ongoing speculation on it. They've got nothing to do with RDNA3, nothing to do with MCM, and nothing to do with some kind of "RDNA2+" or "RDNA2 Refresh".

 

[coercitiv]

A little piece of entertainment

 

[AtenRa]

A little piece of entertainment

Hell I just watched the Video,

Huge CPU bottlenecks with NVIDIA GPUs when paired with low end CPUs
In some situations the combination of Ryzen 1600X + RX5600XT is faster than the combination of Ryzen 2600X + RTX3090 , loco

 

[coercitiv]

Huge CPU bottlenecks with NVIDIA GPUs when paired with low end CPUs

It's still a niche situation on the desktop as one needs to be have quite a bit of GPU headroom generated through lower settings.

However, this does raise two very interesting questions:

• will this positively affect mobile 6000 series GPUs, considering this creates additional power headroom vs. a GeForce powered systems? (technically you're always limited by available power on laptops)
• should gaming CPU benchmarks be switched to 6900XT instead? The idea of eliminating GPU bound scenarios only to introduce diminishing returns through driver overhead does not seem productive at all.

 

[Timorous]

It's still a niche situation on the desktop as one needs to be have quite a bit of GPU headroom generated through lower settings.

However, this does raise two very interesting questions:

• will this positively affect mobile 6000 series GPUs, considering this creates additional power headroom vs. a GeForce powered systems? (technically you're always limited by available power on laptops)
• should gaming CPU benchmarks be switched to 6900XT instead? The idea of eliminating GPU bound scenarios only to introduce diminishing returns through driver overhead does not seem productive at all.

I can see people with a 1600X or 2600X considering a GPU upgrade about now. Those systems are 2+ years old if they were purchased at launch and knowing you can buy a 6800 or maybe even a 6700XT (if stock ever materialises) and get better performance than a similar priced NV part is really useful.

 

[Krteq]

Seems like Ampere really suffers from "doubled FP32 units" utilization, similar to GCN thread occupancy

 

[Leeea]

Spoiler: expand for twitter

https://twitter.com/x/status/1368997303495852046

https://twitter.com/x/status/1368997311850905608

Gives me foolish hope that ray tracing might improve with the rx 6000 series. Crosses fingers.

A little piece of entertainment

This directly effects me! I am still using a 4790k from 2014.

I determined upgrading my gpu would result in more performance then a cpu upgrade, but I had planned to go for a rtx 3080. In hindsight it is pure luck I ended up with a rx 6000 series gpu.

edit: my i7-4790k has very similar performance to i3-10100 tested in the hardware unboxed video, and I just purchased a rx6900xt that he used in his testing!

I can see people with a 1600X or 2600X considering a GPU upgrade about now. Those systems are 2+ years old if they were purchased at launch and knowing you can buy a 6800 or maybe even a 6700XT (if stock ever materialises) and get better performance than a similar priced NV part is really useful.

Yes! and for the same dollar amount, a GPU upgrade will yield more performance then a CPU upgrade. Even on a not so old old CPU like those.

 

[Leeea]

This also rewrites the conclusions Gamers Nexus made here:

Spoiler: Gamer's Nexus 4790k in 2020 video

Where he used a rtx 2080 for this testing.

 

[AtenRa]

It's still a niche situation on the desktop as one needs to be have quite a bit of GPU headroom generated through lower settings.

However, this does raise two very interesting questions:

• will this positively affect mobile 6000 series GPUs, considering this creates additional power headroom vs. a GeForce powered systems? (technically you're always limited by available power on laptops)
• should gaming CPU benchmarks be switched to 6900XT instead? The idea of eliminating GPU bound scenarios only to introduce diminishing returns through driver overhead does not seem productive at all.

Well even at 1440p ultra the Ampere cards have CPU bottleneck as the combination of 1600X + 6900XT is about 20% faster vs 1600X + 3090

Yes for the laptops I really want to see more reviews , it can make more impact in those Laptop environments.
In a perfect world I would like to have both 6900XT AND 3090 in CPU reviews

edit: Also I would really like to see the same review with lower end GPUs like the 3060Ti/3060 and 6700/6700XT because those GPUs are more suitable for 1080p gaming.
It would also be great to include RT performance as well to see if RT will also have CPU dependencies.

 

[Leeea]

It would also be great to include RT performance as well to see if RT will also have CPU dependencies.

Yes! This.

My i7-4790k is roughly equivalent to his i3-10100**
I have a rx6900xt showing up friday

The shocking thing was his Watch Dogs Legion 1440p High Quality rx6900xt graph at 14:27* showed only a +8 fps boost going from the i3-10100 to the ryzen 5600x. If raytracing shows similar scaling, I have no reason to upgrade my cpu for yet another generation!

Who would have thought in 2014 that the 4790k would still be compelling in 2021?!

*

Spoiler: * youtube link to above mentioned graph

**link showing very similar performance between 4790k and 10100:
https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-4790K-vs-Intel-Core-i3-10100/2384vs4075

 

[Stuka87]

So ray tracing logic written to work best on nVidia, turns out to not be the best for AMD. Go figure.

I can't recall which thread I said this in, but I fully expect that within a year, RTRT performance on AMD cards will be much better than it is now. Will it beat nVidia, no clue. But it will certainly get better. If there was one big hidden advantage to nVidia getting RTRT out first, its that everything thus far has been coded to work best with their implementation.

 

[AtenRa]

So ray tracing logic written to work best on nVidia, turns out to not be the best for AMD. Go figure.

I can't recall which thread I said this in, but I fully expect that within a year, RTRT performance on AMD cards will be much better than it is now. Will it beat nVidia, no clue. But it will certainly get better. If there was one big hidden advantage to nVidia getting RTRT out first, its that everything thus far has been coded to work best with their implementation.

In a few months FarCry 6 and Resident Evil : Village are expected to be released , both will support RT and will be optimized for AMD RT architecture.
We can see how RDNA2 will perform when the game is not written for RTX only.

 

[Mopetar]

AMD will probably perform better relatively, but I believe Nvidia just has more dedicated hardware to speed up the calculations which is always going to favor them as long as no one went out of their way to gimp the performance. However, in both cases I think the performance isn't going to be good enough unless the resolution is lowered or some kind of scaling is used on a lower-resolution render. Good ray tracing performance is still at least two more generations away in my opinion and developers need to learn how to appropriately and best utilize it as much as the hardware needs to mature.