Speculation: AMD's response to Intel's 8-core i9-9900K

[epsilon84]

I'm not sure that re-enabling HT as the sole counter measure to Zen 2 would be sending the right message about Intel's position. It'd be an admission that they had reached the end point of 14nm+++++++++++, and that they definitely were well behind in their development of 10nm.

Why would they need an 'admission' on that though? Anybody with any industry experience would know Intel has been milking 14nm for way longer than planned. They would also know that is a direct cause of the 10nm delays. Enabling HT as a 'last hurrah' for 14nm seems the most logical thing to do to stay relevant in the performance race.

What else would you suggest? For Intel to do nothing and idly sit by waiting for 10nm while AMD catches up on frequency and IPC *plus* offering twice the threads for a lower price?

HT easily enables a +25% uplift in MT performance and it's basically a 'free' upgrade for Intel to properly compete with Zen 2.

I don't see how else they could possibly compete with Zen 2, it would be a complete market domination by AMD otherwise.

 

[CHADBOGA]

What else would you suggest? For Intel to do nothing and idly sit by waiting for 10nm while AMD catches up on frequency and IPC *plus* offering twice the threads for a lower price?

Yes

 

[PotatoWithEarsOnSide]

So we're OK with Intel taking it away one year in order to give it back the next? That's not even tock, it's to...ck.
If we're to believe that the next gen is just that, doesn't it make the current gen totally obsolete from day 1?
What rationale did Intel give over 9th gen having HT disabled?

As for the initial question, Joe Public aren't necessarily tech savvy, yet they still invest in the Big Blue. Admitting to Joe Public actually causes damage to brand marketability.
For me, its quite clear that Intel knows that Joe Public is incredibly stupid, hence the changes to the naming schemes.
IMO, it all adds up to delaying tactics in order for them to sort out their 10nm fiasco. Joe Public tend to believe marketing spiel, hence why Black Friday is a great day for fake sales etc. Next year, all they have to market with is likely to be re-enabling what they just took away this year. Even a stupid Joe Public would see through that.

 

[jpiniero]

What rationale did Intel give over 9th gen having HT disabled?

They added two cores.

 

[dlerious]

Why would they need an 'admission' on that though? Anybody with any industry experience would know Intel has been milking 14nm for way longer than planned. They would also know that is a direct cause of the 10nm delays. Enabling HT as a 'last hurrah' for 14nm seems the most logical thing to do to stay relevant in the performance race.

What else would you suggest? For Intel to do nothing and idly sit by waiting for 10nm while AMD catches up on frequency and IPC *plus* offering twice the threads for a lower price?

HT easily enables a +25% uplift in MT performance and it's basically a 'free' upgrade for Intel to properly compete with Zen 2.

I don't see how else they could possibly compete with Zen 2, it would be a complete market domination by AMD otherwise.

Are they going to sell them as 10th gen or slot them in the current gen? They've already got a 9700k with HT - the 9900K. That only leaves the 9600K basically putting it somewhere between the 8700K and 8086K. The only thing they could really do is lower the prices.

 

[Gikaseixas]

And at $150 less than the 2700X the R5 2600 would be a much better deal for most people too.

R5 2600 loses to R7 2700X in everything, same does not happen with the i7 9700K vs R7 2700X battle, the overall performance delta between the AMD cpus is larger, therefore justifiable or easier to swallow. plus 8C/16T > 8C/8T

 

[jpiniero]

Are they going to sell them as 10th gen or slot them in the current gen? They've already got a 9700k with HT - the 9900K. That only leaves the 9600K basically putting it somewhere between the 8700K and 8086K. The only thing they could really do is lower the prices.

My guess is 9th gen. I imagine they would call it 9950K, 9750K, 9650K, etc.

 

[IEC]

What is the ebay bucks code ?

If you have an eBay account, sometimes they run targeted promotions for anywhere from 6%-10% in "eBay bucks" which are their quarterly rewards/rebate program. Each promo gives a max cashback of anywhere from $60-100 or something like that. You accumulate those "eBay bucks" for a quarter and then they are available for you to spend for a month(?) the next quarter. With no promo, you are looking at 1% back on most purchases. Which is what it's at today.

Occasionally they will also have coupon codes (usually not coinciding with eBay bucks promos) which allow a 1-time use for anywhere from 10-15% off anything site-wide, with a maximum of $100 or so. Some sellers jack up their prices accordingly, so it's usually best to pull the trigger at the beginning of the promo (usually 8AM Eastern or similar time).

Always read fine print, sometimes nothing good to purchase, your mileage will vary blah blah blah. But for the deal hunter eBay bucks and coupon promos can save a pretty penny on computer parts purchases. Or at least get you a 10% discount on something that never goes on sale.

 

[IEC]

Of course, as of this writing Amazon is selling not one, but TWO X399 boards for <$240.

It's a good thing that the $450ish 1950X is sold out everywhere, or I'd be sorely tempted to pick up yet another Threadripper™.

I'm unsure if AMD is clearing out 1st gen Ryzen/TR stock cheaply to retailers, or if retailers are simply trying to nab Black Friday shoppers, or both. Either way, it's working.

 

[PotatoWithEarsOnSide]

Did they really add 2 cores though?
Sure, 4C is the new base, but they already had a 4C CPU, and the move to 6C was also to something they already had. All the 9th gen added was some 8C CPUs, one with and one without HT.
So all told, they simply removed HT from all tiers except the new top tier. The rest of the range is effectively just rebadged, except with HT disabled. Great upgrade that.
As I said, if 10th gen is simply re-enabling HT, they are effectively to...ck for 9th and 10th gen.

 

[jpiniero]

Did they really add 2 cores though?

I was specifically talking about the i7 K, which had 6 cores with HT and now has 8 cores without. The i5 K stayed the same (6 cores without HT).

 

[dlerious]

My guess is 9th gen. I imagine they would call it 9950K, 9750K, 9650K, etc.

They have an 8C/16T with the 9900K. What are the 9950K and 9750K going to be?

 

[jpiniero]

They have an 8C/16T with the 9900K. What are the 9950K and 9750K going to be?

9950K would be 10C20T. 9750K would be 8C16T. That would work with the rumor that they will go to 10 cores.

 

[dlerious]

9950K would be 10C20T. 9750K would be 8C16T. That would work with the rumor that they will go to 10 cores.

I thought he was talking about adding HT only, not cores. I'd hate to see the thermals on a 10 core. The 9750K would be identical to the 9900K.

 

[PotatoWithEarsOnSide]

And the 9650k would be a 8700k in mug's clothing.

 

[jpiniero]

The 9750K would be identical to the 9900K.

They could do something like keep the L3 at current levels on the i7 just so there is a tangible difference in one aspect between the 9900K and 9750K. But yeah, that's sort of the point; it would be effectively a price cut but that's the intent.

 

[PotatoWithEarsOnSide]

...or they could just keep the 9900k moniker whilst reducing it's price.
Why re-badge for a price reduction? That'd be the ultimate in REDACTED.

We have a Zero Tolerance Policy for profanity in the Tech Sub-Forums.

Iron Woode
Super Moderator

 

[AtenRa]

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[DrMrLordX]

I'm surprised the Wraith MAX is rated that high. That's almost enough to take a 2700x to ~4.3 GHz all cores.

 

[jpiniero]

...or they could just keep the 9900k moniker whilst reducing it's price.
Why re-badge for a price reduction? That'd be the ultimate in <redacted>.

They would do a respin to perhaps get higher OC turbo clocks and also include some more Smeltdown fixes.

 

[Spartak]

Intel must be really worried, it seems they won't have any answer to Zen 2. Not unless they cut the price of the 9900k by a third and actually make the thing. And that's assuming the 3700x is 8 cores. If its 12 cores then even the 9900k will be a hard sell.

People keep comparing Zen2 to the current 9th gen but Zen2 is slated to be released in 19Q3/4 around the same time as Ice Lake. And just like Zen2 Ice Lake will have serious IPC improvements.

The usual AMD trolls will laugh this away as they have in other threads but Intel has made strong statements that this time next year they will indeed have a hard launch of ice lake on 10+ or maybe '12' nm. If we believe the same source (Charlie) that said Intel 10nm is dead, we should also give some weight to that same source saying their alternative is on track and performing above expectations. Even if you choose to brush of Charlie as an attention whore the first Ice Lake has already been spotted on Geekbench.

Would be nice if people can have a less coloured discussion in this thread and compare Zen2 with Ice Lake. And yes, that means the whole premise of this thread is wrong. Zen2 is not a response to the 9th gen but their answer to Ice Lake.

FWIW I'm expecting for their next gen to have HT accross the whole line up with 10 cores for i9. So core i3 4C/8T, core i5 6C/12T, core i7 8C/16T and core i9 10C/20T. The core i9 would still beat the 3800 in ST but loose in MT similar to the 2700X vs the 8700K.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

That is a good point, the 1700 has been that price for a while, why isn't it the most popular selling CPU?

To get the most out of the 1700, you need a very specific combination of requirements. It isn't a CPU suited for everybody. It has the cores, but frequency is somewhat low. Great for multitasking, multithreaded workloads and VMs. With very reasonable power consumption (performance per W is off the chart). Not great for single threaded stuff, or gaming.

Most would be much better of with the 2600X or the Intel equivalents.

Written as a day one 1700 user.

 

[jpiniero]

People keep comparing Zen2 to the current 9th gen but Zen2 is slated to be released in 19Q3/4 around the same time as Ice Lake. And just like Zen2 Ice Lake will have serious IPC improvements.

Comet Lake is 14 nm.

 

[Spartak]

Comet Lake is 14 nm.

AFAIK Ice Lake is the umbrella code name for the new architecture and not a specific product series. It was always planned for 10nm but with all the problems Intel faced they might have changed things for 2019. It's highly likely we'll see Ice Lake across all new client CPU's next year irrespective of the chosen process node.

Frankly we have no idea if 10nm was killed across all next gen product lines, just killed for desktop and server and replaced for some in between '12'nm node or that the 10nm that supposedly was 'killed' is just the m1/2 pitches relaxed to 40 or 44nm.

You seem to have filled in some dots with a worst case scenario that is quite unlikely.

 

[jpiniero]

It's highly likely we'll see Ice Lake across all new client CPU's next year irrespective of the chosen process node.

I'd be really surprised if Comet has any arch upgrades beyond any Smeltdown fixes. Just higher clocks and HT; with the i9 getting 10 cores.

It makes sense when you realize that Icelake won't clock that high and might even be lower than Zen 2.