Southwest Airplane Develops Hole in Fuselage

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davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,512
24
76
You get rid of fuel if you have time and altitude to do so. If not, you land and do the heavy landing checks. You aren't always going to have time to get rid of fuel. You don't want to land above the normal MLW, but you can.

I'm just an airplane nut and that is me on A.Net.

I get that, I guess it comes down to if you had to land right away and well above MLW and did not have time to jettison fuel, the MLW issue would be down on the list of worries anyway and for the most part irrelevant. Is that what you are getting at? Even with the A380 failure/fire, they took the time to dump fuel from what I understand. Or maybe they did not take extra time to dump?

Also interesting for those that worry about turbulence, watch this 777 wing flex video. The amount of stress and angle/curvature of the wing before it fails is amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai2HmvAXcU0&feature=related
 
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Redfraggle

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2009
2,413
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The whole thing seems rather scary from the passenger point of view. Everyone will still fly. People scared of flying will just cite it as one more reason not to fly.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,786
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An old friend of ours is a service engineer for 737, and handles the air packs and pressurization systems. He'll have the inside scoop on this.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
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An old friend of ours is a service engineer for 737, and handles the air packs and pressurization systems. He'll have the inside scoop on this.

Hopefully your friend won't be found liable for this.

/me hasn't read anything yet.
 

JDawg1536

Golden Member
Apr 27, 2006
1,275
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My cousin was on board.... he has tons of pics from inside the plane. I can confirm, bricks were shat.
 

JDawg1536

Golden Member
Apr 27, 2006
1,275
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southwest2-1.jpg


southwest1.jpg


southwest.jpg
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,512
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My cousin was on board.... he has tons of pics from inside the plane. I can confirm, bricks were shat.

FYI, he probably could have made some coin from these photos as this is becoming more of a story with SWA grounding 80 some 737-300s for a few days while they perform inspections. Nice of you too post them, but just saying as I made quite a bit from much less newsworthy aviation photos back when I had the time.
 
Feb 24, 2001
14,513
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FYI, he probably could have made some coin from these photos as this is becoming more of a story with SWA grounding 80 some 737-300s for a few days while they perform inspections. Nice of you too post them, but just saying as I made quite a bit from much less newsworthy aviation photos back when I had the time.

Eh, I dunno. Figure a hundred something folks all with phones, probably lots of pics going to be floating around.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,786
5,941
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Hopefully your friend won't be found liable for this.

/me hasn't read anything yet.
He works for Boeing, and as an employee would not be liable for anything. Maybe you just choose words haphazardly, or maybe you don't know the meaning of them. I'm not sure.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,322
14,725
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Looks like this isn't the first time this plane has had...issues.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_southwest_flight_diverted

NTSB: Southwest jet had pre-existing fatigue

"YUMA, Ariz. – Federal records show cracks were found and repaired a year ago in the frame of the Southwest Airlines Boeing 737-300 that made an emergency landing at an Arizona military base after a hole was torn from the passenger cabin.

No one was seriously injured Friday as the aircraft carrying 118 people rapidly lost cabin pressure and made a harrowing but controlled descent from 34,500 feet, landing safely near Yuma, Ariz., 150 miles southwest of Phoenix.

But passengers recalled tense minutes after a hole ruptured overhead with a blast and they fumbled frantically for oxygen masks as the plane descended.

On Sunday, federal investigators examining the damaged plane in Yuma said the entire length of a 5-foot-long tear in the skin of the aircraft shows evidence of pre-existing fatigue cracking.

National Transportation Safety Board member Robert Sumwalt said that the rip was a foot wide, and that it started along a lap joint where two sections of the 737's skin are riveted together. Southwest mechanics will cut the entire ripped section out of the plane, and it will be sent to Washington D.C., for analysis.

Southwest grounded 80 similar planes to carry out inspections.

An Associated Press review of Federal Aviation Administration records of maintenance problems for the 15-year-old plane showed that in March 2010 at least eight instances were found of cracking in the aircraft frame, which is part of the fuselage, and another half-dozen instances of cracked stringer clips, which help hold the plane's skin on. The records showed that those problems were repaired.

It's not uncommon for fuselage cracks to be found during inspections of planes that age, especially during scheduled heavy maintenance checks in which they are taken apart so that inspectors can see into areas not normally visible.

The National Transportation Safety Board worked to determine what caused part of the fuselage to rupture.

NTSB member Robert Sumwalt said investigators will study the cut-out fuselage piece for fracture patterns and examine the plane's black box and flight recorders.

Southwest officials said the Arizona plane had undergone all inspections required by the FAA. They said the plane was given a routine inspection Tuesday and underwent its last so-called heavy check, a more costly and extensive overhaul, in March 2010.

Meanwhile, the airline grounded the 80 planes resulting in about 300 canceled flights Saturday, airline spokeswoman Linda Rutherford said.

Southwest operates about 170 of the 737-300s in its fleet of about 540 planes, but it replaced the aluminum skin on many of the 300s in recent years, Rutherford said. The planes that were grounded Saturday have not had their skin replaced, she said.

"Obviously we're dealing with a skin issue, and we believe that these 80 airplanes are covered by a set of (federal safety rules) that make them candidates to do this additional inspection that Boeing is devising for us," Rutherford said.

Julie O'Donnell, an aviation safety spokeswoman for Seattle-based Boeing Commercial Airplanes, confirmed "a hole in the fuselage and a depressurization event" in the latest incident but declined to speculate on what caused it.

A total of 288 Boeing 737-300s currently operate in the U.S. fleet, and 931 operate worldwide, according to the Federal Aviation Administration. "The FAA is working closely with the NTSB, Southwest Airlines and Boeing to determine what actions may be necessary," the FAA said Saturday.

The 737-300 is the oldest plane in Southwest's fleet, and the Dallas-based company is retiring 300s as it takes deliveries of new models. But the process of replacing all the 300s could take years.

A similar incident happened in July 2009 when a football-sized hole opened up in-flight in the fuselage of another of Southwest's Boeing 737s, depressurizing the cabin. The plane made an emergency landing in Charleston, W.Va. It was later determined that the hole was caused by metal fatigue.

In response to that incident, Southwest changed its maintenance plan to include additional inspections, which FAA reviewed and accepted, said John Goglia, a former NTSB member and an expert on airline maintenance. The details of the plan are considered proprietary and aren't made public, he said.

Four months before that emergency landing, Southwest had agreed to pay $7.5 million to settle charges that it operated planes that had missed required safety inspections for cracks in the fuselage. The airline inspected nearly 200 of its planes back then, found no cracks and put them back in the sky. "
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
13,897
1
0
Looks like this isn't the first time this plane has had...issues.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_southwest_flight_diverted

I'm not sure what you're suggesting, pretty much any older aircraft is going to have fatigue cracks and they're likely to be quite large. Most older airliners are riddled with cracks, but they're either too small to cause risk or they've been repaired. They look for this sort of stuff in normal maintenance. There's no signs to show that this was a lemon of an aircraft.

They said that there was evidence of pre-existing fatigue cracking along the entire length of the 5 foot crack. Either large cracks that should have been caught were missed or it was like a widespread fatigue issue where a crack can grow from one small fatigue crack to the next very quickly. It's possible to predict the crack growth of a single crack but it's incredibly hard to predict how multiple cracks will interact with each other. Cracks that are small enough that wouldn't be a concern on their own can hook up and grow to something that can cause failure very quickly.

There's been a huge amount of study and effort into how to determine the remaining life of aging aircraft. It's a very complicated problem.
 

PhoKingGuy

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2007
4,685
0
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737-300? Yeesh that thing is ancient by now, looks like their fleet needs a bit of updating.

Though I've always got 737-700s when I've flown them.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,512
24
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737-300? Yeesh that thing is ancient by now, looks like their fleet needs a bit of updating.

Though I've always got 737-700s when I've flown them.

Definately!! A 15 year old aircraft is ancient and just waiting to kill us all!!! Obviously the FAA and NTSB are in collusion with Southwest so that dangerous airplanes are flying so that they will keep their jobs!
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
13,897
1
0
737-300? Yeesh that thing is ancient by now, looks like their fleet needs a bit of updating.

Though I've always got 737-700s when I've flown them.

1996 isn't really that old. Fatigue cracks are just a fact of life on aircraft and the alloys they use to build the airframes. The upside to those alloys is that they are incredibly strong for their weight, the downside is that they are prone to cracking. They do inspections on a regular basis to look for cracks and repair or replace things as needed. Depending on the plane, it's use, and the amount of maintenance that's economical for them to do (eventually its cheaper to replace the plane than continue to repair it) they can keep planes flying for quite some time.
 

KillerCharlie

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2005
3,691
68
91
An old friend of ours is a service engineer for 737, and handles the air packs and pressurization systems. He'll have the inside scoop on this.

He's not a structural engineer though...

I might ask some of my coworkers why it happened, but it's probably something boring like missing a crack during inspection.
 

KillerCharlie

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2005
3,691
68
91
Hopefully your friend won't be found liable for this.

/me hasn't read anything yet.

Engineers are not individually responsible, the company as a whole is. The FAA has to buy off on everything anyways (which is actually pretty scary, I trust the company engineers more than the FAA, unless it's an FAA liason rep).
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
13,897
1
0
He's not a structural engineer though...

I might ask some of my coworkers why it happened, but it's probably something boring like missing a crack during inspection.

I'd be interested in hearing about it. There will probably be an FAA or NTSB report out sooner or later that will cover it sooner or later.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,322
14,725
146
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_southwest_flight_diverted

NTSB: Cracks found in 3 grounded Southwest planes

"YUMA, Ariz. – Inspectors have found small, subsurface cracks in three more Southwest Airlines planes that are similar to those suspected of causing a jetliner to lose pressure and make a harrowing emergency landing in Arizona, a federal investigator said Sunday.

Southwest said in statement that two of its Boeing 737-700s had cracks and will be evaluated and repaired before they are returned to service. A National Transportation Safety Board member told The Associated Press later Sunday that a third plane had been found with cracks developing.

The cracks found in the three planes developed in two lines of riveted joints that run the length of the aircraft.

Nineteen other Boeing 737-300 planes inspected using a special test developed by the manufacturer showed no problems and will be returned to service. Checks on nearly 60 other jets are expected to be completed by late Tuesday, the airline said.

That means flight cancelations will likely continue until the planes are back in the air. About 600 flights in all were canceled over the weekend.

NTSB board member Robert Sumwalt said Boeing was developing a "service bulletin" for all 737-300 models with comparable flight cycle time as the Arizona jet, which was 15 years old and had about 39,000 takeoff and landing cycles.

There are 931 such models in service worldwide, 288 of which in the U.S. fleet.

Boeing's bulletin would strongly suggest extensive checks of two lines of "lap joints" that run the length of the fuselage. The NTSB has not mandated the checks, but Sumwalt said the FAA will likely make them mandatory."
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,235
136
An old friend of ours is a service engineer for 737, and handles the air packs and pressurization systems. He'll have the inside scoop on this.
Hopefully your friend won't be found liable for this.

/me hasn't read anything yet.

He works for Boeing, and as an employee would not be liable for anything. Maybe you just choose words haphazardly, or maybe you don't know the meaning of them. I'm not sure.

I wasn't talking about legal liability at all. Engineering mistakes that cause financial loss sometimes result in firings...that's all I was saying.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,512
24
76
I wasn't talking about legal liability at all. Engineering mistakes that cause financial loss sometimes result in firings...that's all I was saying.

With the sheer amount of engineering, testing, and certification process that is needed to bring an aircraft such as the 737 to market, how would you determine which engineer(s) to fire? What scenario could you envision that would lead someone to get fired in this situation?
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,235
136
With the sheer amount of engineering, testing, and certification process that is needed to bring an aircraft such as the 737 to market, how would you determine which engineer(s) to fire? What scenario could you envision that would lead someone to get fired in this situation?

As stated, I hadn't read anything about this situation when I said that (aside from the topic title and that post). However, I know that mistakes are often attributable to an individual.

I understand what you're saying, though.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,322
14,725
146
I would think that if anyone got fired for cracks developing in a 15 year old airplane, it'd be the maintenance inspectors...
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
Southwest sucks. I would not miss that shitty airline if they just disappeared from the face of the earth. This is just another reason not to fly them, in addition to loud and obnoxious kids and families going on vacation once a year, many of whom have no concept of flying etiquette.

I feel safe flying with UA/CO.