I think it shows how accepted this kind of politics is in all of Illinois, not just confined to the Governor's office. Bribery and payoffs are just standard practice in Illinois & Chicago politics.
I think it shows how accepted this kind of politics is in all of Illinois, not just confined to the Governor's office. Bribery and payoffs are just standard practice in Illinois & Chicago politics.
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: cubby1223
And the crotchety Democrat apologist finally pokes out his head.
The self proclaimed "most educated American on the internet" proves he doesn't know squat of Illinois history, yet can still present falsehoods as fact.
The fact that they are pissing you radical Righties off is a testament to their success :thumbsup:
That doesn't even make any sense.
The "most educated American on the internet" cannot even put together a coherent thought. :laugh:
Calling me a "radical Righties" is also a false statement. Come on, you're not even trying to act educated anymore.
BrunoPuntzJones
Lifer
- Feb 24, 2001
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ElMonoDelMar
Golden Member
- Apr 29, 2004
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CADsortaGUY
Lifer
BHO statement and Axelrod statements differ
Hmm.... I wonder who's lying/ not telling the whole truth here...
Originally posted by: Fern
I'm hearing he still gets to pick the replacement, even with all this trouble.
I wonder if he's on the phone with GWB trying to swap the seat for a pardon?
Fern
Senator George Walker Bush, eh?
I'm disgusted by his reported behavior, and glad to see him charged, if the charges are true. It sounds like it might have taken far too long if anything.
The useful question now may be what can be done to improve the system to better catch this behavior as early as possible - and even how to help voters not elect criminals.
It's a sad commentary on the democratic system in place for someone as corrupt as he allegedly is to get elected.
The useful question now may be what can be done to improve the system to better catch this behavior as early as possible - and even how to help voters not elect criminals.
It's a sad commentary on the democratic system in place for someone as corrupt as he allegedly is to get elected.
K1052
Elite Member
- Aug 21, 2003
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Originally posted by: Fern
I'm hearing he still gets to pick the replacement, even with all this trouble.
I wonder if he's on the phone with GWB trying to swap the seat for a pardon?
Fern
The IL legislature is calling a special session to repeal the law that gives the governor authority to designate a replacement and that would trigger a special election for the seat.
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: Fern
I'm hearing he still gets to pick the replacement, even with all this trouble.
I wonder if he's on the phone with GWB trying to swap the seat for a pardon?
Fern
The IL legislature is calling a special session to repeal the law that gives the governor authority to designate a replacement and that would trigger a special election for the seat.
They arent repealing the law. They are just wanting to pass a law to have a special election this time around.
K1052
Elite Member
- Aug 21, 2003
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Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: Fern
I'm hearing he still gets to pick the replacement, even with all this trouble.
I wonder if he's on the phone with GWB trying to swap the seat for a pardon?
Fern
The IL legislature is calling a special session to repeal the law that gives the governor authority to designate a replacement and that would trigger a special election for the seat.
They arent repealing the law. They are just wanting to pass a law to have a special election this time around.
What I've been reading indicates they want to remove this part of the law.
You can really tell the difference between people who live in IL and those who don't. The surprise at work was not that he was found guilty of corruption, we all knew that. We were just surprised how blatant he was. There is a real reason his approval rating was at about half of W's.
It will be hard to fix the system in Illinois, the corruption of the chicago machine is deep and strong, many many companies are complacent with the idea that they must fund candidates in order to receive contracts. Perhaps Obama can somehow help clean this mess up, it seems he refused to play the game. I wonder if we can get a little bit extra of that hope and change.
What does Obama or an apple have to do with this?
Or didn't you notice that the lead prosecutor has already stated there is no suggestion or indication of any connection between Obama and the charges against Blagojevich. :roll:
One of my concerns is that too many people wrongly conclude there's not a problem because Obama got elected.
'Well, Obama didn't play the game, and he got elected, so it's not a big problem'.
'Well, how can there be a problem with campaign financing? Obama got elected'.
Obama was a 'freak exception' to the rule; there are big problems to fix.
Well, I really could care less about this jackass. I will have to admit his wife looks kind of hot though. I wonder how much he wants for her for a night or two?? :evil:
He's selling everything else, so why not........
He's selling everything else, so why not........
Please do not assume this is aimed at you, but you just reminded me of one of my pet peeves. A lot of people seem to assume that politics is like an engine, if something bad happens it needs to be "fixed." And while that is not in itself bad, all too often people assume that it can be fixed like an engine, that there is just something wrong that can be replaced or patched. The difference is that we know what an engine does, engines do not exhibit emergent behavior. With politics we get something that is much less understood.
Politics was not designed, corruption is not the same as a broken fuel injector, it may be very possible that what we are seeing is the natural progression of our current method of elections in Illinois in which we have such a huge disparity between the situation in Chicago Vs the rest of the state. It may also be that the corruption is more like an inoperable cancer, yes we can purge it, but it has become such a huge part of the normal function of the state that removing the corruption would actually harm the state more than leaving it in place. And then there is the final problem that we can never truly understand what will happen when we try to fix the problem.
I think it needs to change, but I just wish that other people realized that when we change it there are a million and one ways we can make it worse, and only a few ways that we can fix it correctly so we need to tread very lightly and really work hard to get it right.
It so happens I have a very different view of the issue from you.
I'll explain with an analogy, two actually. I've seen a politician (Al Gore) shocked when his campaign team predicted if he spent X dollars to make a point, and then his opponent responded the way they expected, and then they countered, how much it would change opinion polls - and they were exactly right on. In marketing, the illusion of 'individual free choice' runs head on to the sociological behavior of how groups behave in response to marketing techniques.
I think that people don't realize nearly *enough* how many political - and for that matter, societal - problems are 'systemic'. For one example, people are often far too quick to blame 'the individual' involved in the wrongdoing. They really don't understand even the basic systemic issues - for a simple example, the way the founding fathers felt the Senate with 6 year terms would provide a 'cooling saucer' in contrast to the 'hot passions' of the House elected every two years and clode to the passions of the moment.
Of course there are individual behaviors - some very honorable, some atrociously criminal - but the problems are primarily systemic IMO and that's what can be done to fix them. You're never going to avoid electing, say, a crooked politician, but you can reduce the chances and you can reduce the temptations and you can reduce the ability to get away with it.
Another analogy - take the 'military industrial complex'. There is a level of institutionalized behavior that has little to do with the individuals, that is more inherent in the setup of such a huge organization with the charter they have. FDR saw it that was - he wanted the Pentagon to be a temprary building because he said that the military would become an entrenched bureacracy out of the control of the elected leaders too much if allowed to have such a permanent major structure. Not long after, you had Eisenhower telling the nation that's just what had happened, with the out of control 'military-industrial(-congressional) complex. You got some of the biggest corporations in the nation building parts in all 50 states to tie Congress' hands into voting for their programs. Forget aboiut any consideration of the morality of the policies on foreign victims who don't vote.
An example of a systemic fix: the military had 'broken' intelligence agencies, with each service having its own service, jealously guarding it, and entrenched. Kennedy created the Defense Intelligence Agency, headed by a man who shared his concerns, and created it with a culture of serving the president better - and it did. It had less to do with the individuals in office, that the stucture of the organization, how they were incented.
There's a lot of wasted energy and emotion on 'those bad individuals', and it creates a false sense of helplessness and cynicism ('all politicians are crooks' that are the real threat.
People need to learn how problems can be improved by improving the systems.
What hasn't changed is that the rich want to get richer. What has changed are the systems in place that affect how much they can do so. We've had 'gilded age' periods, and we've had 'progressive' period, where the rich gain huge wealth and where they don't. They don't change, the systems do.
If this governor just gets a response of 'oh what a bad guy, it sucks when politicians are corrupt', it's a waste. That's probably all that will happen, though.
But I'd suggest looking more at the problem of how can the Illinois corruption be broken? What levels of scrutiny, sunshine laws, law enforcement, public education will help?
Otheriwse, you get rid of this guy and the next corrupt one may well take his place, since the same lack of controls, the same reward for corruption, is still there.
I often say that 90% of the battle is simply having leaders with the 'right agenda'. Unfortunately, that's a lot harder to get than many think, since deceipt is so encouraged.
A President with the 'wrong agenda', like IMO Bush, will have tens of thousands of specific mistaken policies and actions occur from that. And vice versa with a 'good agenda'.
Doesn't matter? Consider Vietnam - millions killed pointlessly. How did that happen, when the president was privately worried it was a bad policy? Consider the way the decision was made, the institutional pressures (JFK had fought off combat forces in Vietnam for years) and other political rewards and pressures. Consider who profited and who lost. Watch the 'architect of the war', Robert McNamra, try to explain lessons learned in his academy-award winning documentary interview, "The Fog of War", discuss the problems.
ebaycj
Diamond Member
- Mar 9, 2002
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Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: Fern
I'm hearing he still gets to pick the replacement, even with all this trouble.
I wonder if he's on the phone with GWB trying to swap the seat for a pardon?
Fern
The IL legislature is calling a special session to repeal the law that gives the governor authority to designate a replacement and that would trigger a special election for the seat.
They arent repealing the law. They are just wanting to pass a law to have a special election this time around.
They should. The people should decide.
Well this pretty much shows the pattern of corruption and illegal activities within the democrat party. Hopefully this isn't the Change Obama was referring to.. bringing this activity to Washington. Has anyone checked if Rezco owns the property next to the white house?
Right, because we NEVER see a Republican get arrested for this kind of thing. :roll:
Face it, there are rats in both parties...a consequence of politics attracting a lot of scumbags and the two major parties being the only game in town.
hahaha, how about this shrewd quote from yesterday:
Last 9 Illinois Governors:
William G. Stratton 1953-1961 (Republican) Indicted for tax evasion related to his use of campaign funds. (Acquitted).
Otto Kerner, Jr. 1961- 1968 (Democratic) Convicted on 17 counts of bribery, conspiracy, perjury, and related charges when Marge Lindheimer Everett deducts the bribe from her federal income tax return as a "ordinary business expense." Sentenced to three years.
Samuel H. Shapiro 1968-1969 (Democratic)
Richard Buell Ogilvie 1969-1973 (Republican)
Daniel Walker 1973-1977 (Democratic) Convicted in 1987 for obtaining fraudulent loans used to support his business and his yacht "The Governor's Lady." Sentenced to seven years, served 18 months.
James R. Thompson 1977-1991 (Republican)
James Edgar 1991-1999 (Republican)
George H. Ryan 1999-2003 (Republican) Convicted on several counts of misuse of campaign funds (funneled to his many daughters, housekeeper, etc.) and selling business licenses for cash and political favors while he was Secretary of State. Sentenced to six and a half years. (Appealing... still).
Rod R. Blagojevich 2003-Present (Democratic) Indicted for bribery, etc. related to shaking down businesses (Tribune, etc.) for state assistance.
Last 9 Illinois Governors:
William G. Stratton 1953-1961 (Republican) Indicted for tax evasion related to his use of campaign funds. (Acquitted).
Otto Kerner, Jr. 1961- 1968 (Democratic) Convicted on 17 counts of bribery, conspiracy, perjury, and related charges when Marge Lindheimer Everett deducts the bribe from her federal income tax return as a "ordinary business expense." Sentenced to three years.
Samuel H. Shapiro 1968-1969 (Democratic)
Richard Buell Ogilvie 1969-1973 (Republican)
Daniel Walker 1973-1977 (Democratic) Convicted in 1987 for obtaining fraudulent loans used to support his business and his yacht "The Governor's Lady." Sentenced to seven years, served 18 months.
James R. Thompson 1977-1991 (Republican)
James Edgar 1991-1999 (Republican)
George H. Ryan 1999-2003 (Republican) Convicted on several counts of misuse of campaign funds (funneled to his many daughters, housekeeper, etc.) and selling business licenses for cash and political favors while he was Secretary of State. Sentenced to six and a half years. (Appealing... still).
Rod R. Blagojevich 2003-Present (Democratic) Indicted for bribery, etc. related to shaking down businesses (Tribune, etc.) for state assistance.
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