Sorry, I have to go rant about the war.

[Dark54555]

Originally posted by: halik
we'll first off all you have NO IDEA what went down in kosovo. I went there shortly after the war, i drove all the way down the Croatia and it wasn't pretty. You did stop a genocide, but at what cost? It's lost easier to send b2s and b52 on a carpet bombing run, leveling the infrastructure and the very little economy they had. But yeah every bomb dropped means one more has to be made here in US. Its way easier to bomb, than to dispatch ground force along the lines of UN PROFOR. MAjority of civilians in former yogoslavia were not involved with Milosevic/Genocide yet you did bomb them to kingdom come.

I'm sure the iraq you're gonna liberate will be happy as well after they get loam of AMRAMS from stealth f117s.

there is always a cost to freedom, and freedom is worth the cost.

Well the idea behind prepresentative democracy is theres not enough resources to have all the people express their opinion. We elect people that best represent or rather SEEM to represent our believes. If thats not the case, its up the individual to speak out.

no, it's up to the individual to exercise his right to vote and elect someone better, if they don't like who they have. America JUST ELECTED new officials to congress. What was that result? Oh, right, Republican majority in House and Senate.

Also i think letting UN handle a violation of THEIR OWN resolution seems more appropriate than going over their heads to punish someone for violating their resolution.

*clap clap clap* Oooh, what a plan you have! Oh, wait, the UN hasn't been able to disarm Saddam since 1991. How much longer do you want to wait, another 12 years?

Manifest of Destiny was the belief that the early 'americans' have a divine right to the land they've come upon, wiping out the native habitants in the process.

The 19th-century doctrine that the United States had the right and duty to expand throughout the North American continent, from the east coast to the west coast. It was the key factor in westward expansion and settlement.

I guess I can't hold a complete lack of an education in US history against you if you aren't even from the US. Consider that your history lesson for the day.

It's not my problem what you drive, i could really care less. What i do mind is the hypocricy that goes with it. If you wanna stop terrorist, dont go bomb coutnries to take their oil. Just stop supporting the terrorists in the first place. There is a proven link between oil funds and terrorist organizations. I guess war on terror is cool, so long we got to watch missiles hitting buildings on Fox news and the whole effort doesnt inconvenience us at all.

If we just wanted the oil, then why did we leave Iraq in 1991? Oh, that's because THIS ISN'T ABOUT OIL.

As for Saddam being a thread, Pakistan is thread to india, india a thread to pakistan. South korea is a thread to north korea, north korea is thread to south korea, and the list goes on. Theres threads everywhere, and what we have here is ajsut a half ass PR spin to put a quasi noble cause on an oil war.

Pakistan-India = STALEMATE
North Korea = Being Actively planned against by the US

Do you have much in the way of an education in foreign affairs?

Oh yeah pointing out my gramatical errors and typos jsut underlines the fact that you have no arguments...

No, that's not it at all. It goes to your credibility.

 

[jahawkin]

Originally posted by: halik
Alright heres my rant:

I'm sick of all the so SELF RIGHTEOUS, ARROGANT AMERICANS, that belive that USA is THEE only single and most important entity in the world. I'm sick of hearing how Saddam poses risk to U.S,, us, the only , I'm sick of hearing how Saddam is a terrorist, when our government supports the nation which majority of the terrorists were citizens of, and I'm sick of seeing american flags and 'stop terrorist' bumper stickers on 5mpg Expeditions while the owners tanks up 40 gallons of gasoline.

I'm positively and definitively sick of American hypocrisy, saying that people that protest against the war are unamerican when in fact they define the spirit of america - THE POWER OF PEOPLE


I just can't stand the RED-WHITE-BLUE packed propaganda we are fed everyday, every time i hear the thousand-dollar-PR-premium "WAR ON TERROR", something iniside of cringes. I've whitness this before, it was back in my true homeland - the communist czechoslovakia. Except back then the propaganda was packed with RED STARS and COMMON GOOD. Come to think of it, the events of today are no different than what i've experienced before 1989. Its always the higher good, somethign we have to do to be better off, something thats our MANIFEST OF DESTINY

You see history repeats and i feel our president wants to turn the clock to 10 years ago. Economic cirisis, high gas prices, stockmarket down the drain. How did daddy solve that problem?


It's funny how this nation that symblolizes liberty can so easily be overtaken by fear coming from media. We have to disarm Saddam Hussein so rumsfelt doesnt have to come out every other week waiving some orange flag and telling us to buy ducktape. Patriotism has worn out already, fear is here to stay.

So with our fear and ducktaped windows, we might as well attack Iraq and call it premtive strike. After all we're americans right? Nothing can hurt us and we'll nuke everythign that moves.


APPENDIX: If there ever another terrorist strike like the one witnessed 9-11, please do be all confused and ask yourselves why would anyone do things like that. Please do wonder when did you ever piss someone off to cause such a terrible reaction. Maybe then you will see where lies the problem

Excellent post. The frothing at the mouth by some people who responded to this is a great example of the brainwashing that can be done by american culture/media. The mere fact that some people (actually: alot of people) think like this:

US: most powerful nation in the world, first truly free nation in the world. What more do you want?

is proof that a severly limited capacity to understand other people's plight/situation/point of view is possible with the right amount of propaganda. This is the type of rhetoric and worldview that the US's current foreign policy is based upon, so watch out world, we're not done being assholes yet.

 

[konichiwa]

Originally posted by: przero
konichiwa - "Does your feeble mind honestly believe that that is possible? A "war on terror" is like a "war on hatred"; you CAN NOT stop people from hating America by killing as many of them as you can find! It will not work. You will end up breeding more and more hatred. "

Maybe we could have some cookies and "Kool-Aid" for the terrorist and ask them nicely not to attack us. And it would be like vacation Bible school. We could agree to give up our SUV's and the evil internet and Brittney Spears and maybe they would like us. Of course we may have to make women dress in veils and stay off the streets, but anything would be O.K. ,we just want them to like us!

Yea, right! Iraq first, then France. Or better yet, take the bridle off Israel and watch the show.

Do you honestly believe that we can simply eradicate all hatred and ill-will towards the United States with a few cruise missiles and by invading several countries? Because if you do, I guarantee you that you are sadly mistaken and I hope you can see the truth. It just _will not_ happen.

Do you think the brothers, sons, fathers, etc, of the people who America kills will be simply content? At best, they will go on with their lives, and at worst, they will become terrorists too. It is a cycle and until you look at the underlying causes of why people feel as though they must lash out against the "western world", it will never end. It just won't.

 

[Dark54555]

Originally posted by: konichiwa

the thought of wiping out entire nations of people honestly doesn't bother me. We're the US, we're better.

I'm thrilled you call yourself an American, but if I had a choice I'd disown you. That attitude is sickening and you wonder why America is hated. I nominate you, sir, for your very own spot in the Annual Darwin Awards (look it up)

you want me to launch the missles myself to prove my point? Yes, it's a gross exaggeration, but you've missed the point.

The US is a better nation. We don't have a dictator who kills our own civillians for his own pleasure. We don't support radical groups bent on world destruction and domination and anarchy or religious zealots. Eventually, the propaganda that spreads lies about the US can be wiped out. Then anti-US sentiment will be decreased and we won't have a bunch of whackos threatening our lives and freedom.

 

[Fencer128]

Someone had to try this!....

Originally posted by: tkotitan2
I just have to blow off some steam, because when stupidity becomes overtly prevalent all around me, I just have to vent before I explode. And I have a huge steam valve, so please forgive all the words. I have tried to stick to facts to keep it short.

I am sick and fed-up with the ridiculous stupidity that people against the war in Iraq continue to demonstrate. It's everywhere, this constant regurgitated rhetoric, all based on theory, emotion, and confusion. It's driving me nuts. These people don't know how to interpret simple fact, it's too horrifying to them so they have to translate what they hear in their heads so it fits into a personal moral mold. Stop it, this is not healthy. Put down the coffe, go have a beer and face reality. Let me address each misconception one at a time.

OK then...

"Isn't the one we're looking for Usama Bin Laden?" or "I want to see UBL brought in, not Saddam Hussein" are along the lines of my first beef. Forget Bin Laden, he's one pixel in the whole friggin display. Apparently when Bush declared "War on terrorism" some people heard "just Bin Laden" as if he is the sole container of the horrible ideal we know as terrorism. As if once we get this one guy, all terrorism stops, or there is no other terror monger than Al Qaeda. Did you catch the news today, we got a terrorist, a big one who helped plan 9/11, and his name wasn't Bin Laden.

That's right, a war on terrorism. Those of you that are engineers know what a daunting task that is. If you're boss asked you to put an end to terrorism, you wouldn't believe it. That's like putting an end to hunger, or death. I mean, realistically, that's like garunteeing that you have eliminated all computer crashes for every computer platform and operating system. End terrorism in every nation for and by every person.

You don't quite go far enough IMHO. An impossible task has been set. One in which the US has set itself as an international policeman to keep all the international terrorists in check. Whats a terrorist - I'm guessing you'd go with something like "someone who threatens/could threaten attrocities against US civilians. That's a big list. What's more is that how do you propose to do this (you have 1441 for Iraq) for other countries such as N. Korea, Iran, Syria? Are they to be bombed if they do not change government? (That was the only way to deal with Al-Queada/Taliban partnership). I also can't see how a war on an ideaology can succeed - it certainly didn't in the case of communism.

But we're trying to do it. Good ole' American gusto. And it's about time, we have all known that terrorism was real before 9/11 and the most difficult risk to deal with. This kind of defensive initiative is the next level, and we needed to be there for a long time, that's your Athlon64 of the defense world.

You seem quite confident that "this is the next level" and that you are "needed". A lot of countries continue to disagree. They still prefer to look for international comprimise and to give these NEW inspections a fair go (though usually you get called a coward and a weasel round here is you have that view). Your personal view. I accept that.

Saddam hussein is a no-brainer on this one, folks!
"I don't think Saddam is a good person, but..."

Stop it right there. No buts. This man kills babies. I am not lying to you, it is a fact. Saddam kills babies. Fact #2, he has violated 18, count them, 18 UN resolutions, and until recently has had 4 years of shceming time after he kicked out the UN inspectors in '98. Fact #3, we know, for certain, that he has stockpiles of botulin, small pox, vx gas, and mustard gas rockets that he has not accounted for since he was demanded to last november by the UN. He's playing games because he knows he can get away with it for a while, he has great experience knowing how slow and incompetent the UN is. Saddam kills babies. Do you want him to kill your babies?

There are many countries with appalling human rights abuses. There are also many who are friendly to the US - and have WMD (some that are not friendly to). I agree that Saddam should be ousted. If a war starts for the purposes of disarmament - then yes- I'll be very happy that Saddam is gone. If (and I'll guess we'll never know) a war is avoided through pressure and inspections - then I'd hope to see a motion debated in the UN in order to depose the Iraqi regime. Not done as "a war on terror", but for what it is - and multilaterally at that. If it doesn't get through (which it most likely won't) then you'll know what everyone else knows. Human rights have nothing to do with war making - unless you're big and powerful and its a means to an end.

The only possible solution to stopping terrorism is to catch the terrorist(s) before they commit a horrible act. After is not good enough because the potential horror is too rampant. Stopping another 9/11 after it happens doesn't work. This is true for all evil deeds, but i'm sorry, we can lock up the murderer of one after he kills someone a lot easier than we can lock up 5 bombers after they kill thousands. Get Saddam before he kills thousands. I'm not so sure he definitely has contacts to terrorists, it's a legetemate concern, but not based on clear fact. But the facts say Saddam is bad enough on his own.

You can't read the future. What constitutes a threat isn't black and white and in writing - on what criteria will these things be judged? To bomb a country and kill people when you haven't got clear moral motives/aims/evidence is plain wrong. I'd like to see a clear written policy from the administration.

"inspections are working." No, they aren't. They never have, they never will. Not in Iraq. Open your eyes. I don't want to rant on this one because it is too stupid. Watch the UN on the news just to see how stupid it is.

Didn't work before - might work now, but we'll never know. I'm guessing we've already had more co-operation than in the last 8 years of inspections.

"we are only attacking Iraq because of their oil." I'm sorry, I didn't hear Bush say oil. I heard terrorism. I don't listen to conspiracy theorists.

I'd like to believe that. It just worries me that Iraq was number 2 on a list that contained guys with nukes on it. The only way to be proved wrong (me) is for the US to go around and threaten/bomb the other "axis of evil" members. Maybe I'd rather not know!

And the final thing I have been hearing that steams me is "By killing civillians we will only cause more terrorism against us." This again is theory. Last time I checked we wern't bombing Afganistan and Taliban and Al Quaeda before they attacked us on 9/11. You cannot predict the future. This theory is not universal, it barely holds water in small thimbles. Look at history, the facts, and allow me a counterexample. One of the reasons the Japnese have learned to love America and Baseball (what could be more american than baseball) is how well we treated Japnese POW's during WWII. They took the game back to their coutry, and they love it, and they love America. And we nuked Japan! What sports; we nearly annihilate them, and they take their licks and are a good sport because they know we are humane. The good guys. We are the good guys. Last time I checked we have been friends since.

Again, your correct in the fact that we can't predict the future. What I can say is that it didn't work for Russia concerning Chechnya. I personally believe there is an element of extreme religious fundamentalism behind the terroist threat the US faces. This is different in nature to the imperialist givernment driving the Japanese in WWII. If you depose an oppresive government, the citizens *may* slowly thank you for it. Unfortunately I think it would be a lot more difficult to depose the hearts and minds of people drawn into aggression through terrorists twisting fundamentalist religion to their own ends. Given that the most inflammatory point in the middle east is due to Isreal/Palestine attrocities - the best hope for lowering terroism in that region is to again get serious about resolution.

I have picked the 5 most intelligent (and only real) arguments the anti-war people have been endlessly spewing, and none of it is based on fact. You people who are out there calling Bush "the real terrorist" are not worth giving real thought to because you are so stupid. Do the world a favor and stop taking up space, go to school, learn to listen for a change, learn to think for yourself. It's like the fish idea. Give me a thought and you feed me for a day, teach me to think and you feed me for a lifetime. Go learn how to think, not what to think.

I don't believe war is a great thing. I hate war. But I hate dying without ever looking my killer in the eyes even more. This is reality, and the threat is real. Getting Bin Laden, dropping our gaurd and sending daisies to Iraq are not going to stop terrorism. We have to always be fighting terrorism. This war will never end. This is the next level, and we have to learn to live there. But you real thinkers out there don't stop, we have the power keep america great and prevent injustice. And if there is true reason to defy my country, I will. But for now, we are resonsible, and the world's most powerful country, and if we can't eventually bring the whole world peace, no one can.

Thanks for a proper debate. I don't like the flame wars we've been having.

Andy

 

[Jmman]

Originally posted by: optoman

Originally posted by: Dark54555

Originally posted by: halik
Alright heres my rant:

I'm sick of all the so SELF RIGHTEOUS, ARROGANT AMERICANS, that belive that USA is THEE only single and most important entity in the world. I'm sick of hearing how Saddam poses risk to U.S,, us, the only , I'm sick of hearing how Saddam is a terrorist, when our government supports the nation which majority of the terrorists were citizens of, and I'm sick of seeing american flags and 'stop terrorist' bumper stickers on 5mpg Expeditions while the owners tanks up 40 gallons of gasoline.

I'm positively and definitively sick of American hypocrisy, saying that people that protest against the war are unamerican when in fact they define the spirit of america - THE POWER OF PEOPLE


I just can't stand the RED-WHITE-BLUE packed propaganda we are fed everyday, every time i hear the thousand-dollar-PR-premium "WAR ON TERROR", something iniside of cringes. I've whitness this before, it was back in my true homeland - the communist czechoslovakia. Except back then the propaganda was packed with RED STARS and COMMON GOOD. Come to think of it, the events of today are no different than what i've experienced before 1989. Its always the higher good, somethign we have to do to be better off, something thats our MANIFEST OF DESTINY

You see history repeats and i feel our president wants to turn the clock to 10 years ago. Economic cirisis, high gas prices, stockmarket down the drain. How did daddy solve that problem?


It's funny how this nation that symblolizes liberty can so easily be overtaken by fear coming from media. We have to disarm Saddam Hussein so rumsfelt doesnt have to come out every other week waiving some orange flag and telling us to buy ducktape. Patriotism has worn out already, fear is here to stay.

So with our fear and ducktaped windows, we might as well attack Iraq and call it premtive strike. After all we're americans right? Nothing can hurt us and we'll nuke everythign that moves.

If you were here right now, I know a couple million people who'd kick your ass.

Plus, your information is in many cases sorely mistaken.

<---- Getting in line for his turn to kick some ass

ROFL!! How come I have this vision of the movie Airplane where everyone from the nuns to the black guys were standing in line ready to kick the hysterical person's ass........

 

[konichiwa]

<< The US is a better nation. We don't have a dictator who kills our own civillians for his own pleasure. We don't support radical groups bent on world destruction and domination and anarchy or religious zealots. Eventually, the propaganda that spreads lies about the US can be wiped out. Then anti-US sentiment will be decreased and we won't have a bunch of whackos threatening our lives and freedom. >>

Wrong. Believe it or not, the US has done (and continues to do) plenty (more than our share) of atrocious things in the past (and present). The "propoganda" you speak about is NOT ALL FALSE. There are plenty of reasons for countries to have legitimate hatred for the United States. Just pick up a book on Colonialism, neo-Colonialism, etc, etc, and you can't miss it.

Try again.

 

[Dark54555]

Originally posted by: jahawkin

Originally posted by: halik
Alright heres my rant:

I'm sick of all the so SELF RIGHTEOUS, ARROGANT AMERICANS, that belive that USA is THEE only single and most important entity in the world. I'm sick of hearing how Saddam poses risk to U.S,, us, the only , I'm sick of hearing how Saddam is a terrorist, when our government supports the nation which majority of the terrorists were citizens of, and I'm sick of seeing american flags and 'stop terrorist' bumper stickers on 5mpg Expeditions while the owners tanks up 40 gallons of gasoline.

I'm positively and definitively sick of American hypocrisy, saying that people that protest against the war are unamerican when in fact they define the spirit of america - THE POWER OF PEOPLE


I just can't stand the RED-WHITE-BLUE packed propaganda we are fed everyday, every time i hear the thousand-dollar-PR-premium "WAR ON TERROR", something iniside of cringes. I've whitness this before, it was back in my true homeland - the communist czechoslovakia. Except back then the propaganda was packed with RED STARS and COMMON GOOD. Come to think of it, the events of today are no different than what i've experienced before 1989. Its always the higher good, somethign we have to do to be better off, something thats our MANIFEST OF DESTINY

You see history repeats and i feel our president wants to turn the clock to 10 years ago. Economic cirisis, high gas prices, stockmarket down the drain. How did daddy solve that problem?


It's funny how this nation that symblolizes liberty can so easily be overtaken by fear coming from media. We have to disarm Saddam Hussein so rumsfelt doesnt have to come out every other week waiving some orange flag and telling us to buy ducktape. Patriotism has worn out already, fear is here to stay.

So with our fear and ducktaped windows, we might as well attack Iraq and call it premtive strike. After all we're americans right? Nothing can hurt us and we'll nuke everythign that moves.


APPENDIX: If there ever another terrorist strike like the one witnessed 9-11, please do be all confused and ask yourselves why would anyone do things like that. Please do wonder when did you ever piss someone off to cause such a terrible reaction. Maybe then you will see where lies the problem

Excellent post. The frothing at the mouth by some people who responded to this is a great example of the brainwashing that can be done by american culture/media. The mere fact that some people (actually: alot of people) think like this:

US: most powerful nation in the world, first truly free nation in the world. What more do you want?

is proof that a severly limited capacity to understand other people's plight/situation/point of view is possible with the right amount of propaganda. This is the type of rhetoric and worldview that the US's current foreign policy is based upon, so watch out world, we're not done being assholes yet.

Because contributing more foreign aid than any other country is being an asshole. Because stepping in to squash dictators from Nazi Germany to Kosovo is being an asshole. Because allowing people from other countries to attend our universities and giving them grants to help do so is being an asshole. Because allowing people to come here to pursue a better life is being an asshole. I can see you've thought this out.

 

[Dark54555]

Originally posted by: konichiwa
<< The US is a better nation. We don't have a dictator who kills our own civillians for his own pleasure. We don't support radical groups bent on world destruction and domination and anarchy or religious zealots. Eventually, the propaganda that spreads lies about the US can be wiped out. Then anti-US sentiment will be decreased and we won't have a bunch of whackos threatening our lives and freedom. >>

Wrong. Believe it or not, the US has done (and continues to do) plenty (more than our share) of atrocious things in the past (and present). The "propoganda" you speak about is NOT ALL FALSE. There are plenty of reasons for countries to have legitimate hatred for the United States. Just pick up a book on Colonialism, neo-Colonialism, etc, etc, and you can't miss it.

Try again.

So you want to dwell on the distant past? Why isn't India attacking the UK for their colonial period. I don't see half of Africa lining up to kick France's ass. I know, why don't we go beat up Mongolia for the hordes Ghengis Kahn sent! And then we can attack Italy for Roman Imperialism. Yes, you've really got something here.

 

[optoman]

It all comes down to one point. Saddam invaded a country and had his ass kicked for it. The UN said you must disarm and found nothing for about 4 or 5 years. Suddenly some guy blabs and we find a lot of stuff that wasn't suppose to exist. The inspectors got no where after that and said it was a hopeless cause to try and disarm him through inspections. They left Iraq in 98, I think it was 98.

Clinton couldn't get an support from Congress to go back in and rest of the world didn't give a hoot. Fast forward to now.

Bush finally gets some support from the UN and wants to finish what the UN wanted over 10 years ago, to disarm Saddam. He is back at his old games again and this time, I hope, we finish the job.

 

[Fencer128]

Will someone read/comment on my response above. Its late here and it took me *ages* to write!

Cheers,

Andy

 

[freakflag]

You did stop a genocide, but at what cost?

I love this statement. :disgust: So typical.

"Yeah, you saved our @sses, bbbut, you're AMERICANS so up yours!"

You said you came from Chezchoslovakia, right? Do you think for half a second that you would enjoy the freeeoms you have now if it were not for the

SELF RIGHTEOUS, ARROGANT AMERICANS,

?

You ungrateful little b@stard.

A "war on terror" is like a "war on hatred"; you CAN NOT stop people from hating America by killing as many of them as you can find! It will not work. You will end up breeding more and more hatred. Period.

That's the most sensible, well stated argument I have heard yet.

 

[halik]

first of all i did take american history so i do know what manifest destiny is,
but just in case your memory is getting foggy, here is some good reading

to quote from the text

Such a belief in manifest destiny?s ?God-given? virtue became so blindly ratified and revised that few came to realize how spurious and baseless it truly was (Hargrid 57). It was not until the end of the 19th century that many become conscious of the irony of their beliefs (Rumbaugh 173). This was not fully recognized for decades, even after the ?eradication and slaughter of thousands of Native Americans simply with a motive for territorial expansion? (Darcy 49). ?Shameless wars had been fought, soldiers? lives had been lost, and shrewd deals had been fulfilled? in an attempt to accomplish goal that had been believed to be supported entirely by God (Paneli 165).

As for the Un thing, it is ok then to be the judge, jury and the executioner in the Iraq matters if UN has been able to do so? How is that of any business to united states in the first place, other than being part of the UN?

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: freakflag

You did stop a genocide, but at what cost?

I love this statement. :disgust: So typical.

"Yeah, you saved our @sses, bbbut, you're AMERICANS so up yours!"

You said you came from Chezchoslovakia, right? Do you think for half a second that you would enjoy the freeeoms you have now if it were not for the

SELF RIGHTEOUS, ARROGANT AMERICANS,

?

You ungrateful little b@stard.

.

Umnn...all Americans aren't self-righteous, arrogant assholes....just people like Dark54555.

 

[jahawkin]

Originally posted by: Dark54555

Originally posted by: jahawkin

Originally posted by: halik
Alright heres my rant:

I'm sick of all the so SELF RIGHTEOUS, ARROGANT AMERICANS, that belive that USA is THEE only single and most important entity in the world. I'm sick of hearing how Saddam poses risk to U.S,, us, the only , I'm sick of hearing how Saddam is a terrorist, when our government supports the nation which majority of the terrorists were citizens of, and I'm sick of seeing american flags and 'stop terrorist' bumper stickers on 5mpg Expeditions while the owners tanks up 40 gallons of gasoline.

I'm positively and definitively sick of American hypocrisy, saying that people that protest against the war are unamerican when in fact they define the spirit of america - THE POWER OF PEOPLE


I just can't stand the RED-WHITE-BLUE packed propaganda we are fed everyday, every time i hear the thousand-dollar-PR-premium "WAR ON TERROR", something iniside of cringes. I've whitness this before, it was back in my true homeland - the communist czechoslovakia. Except back then the propaganda was packed with RED STARS and COMMON GOOD. Come to think of it, the events of today are no different than what i've experienced before 1989. Its always the higher good, somethign we have to do to be better off, something thats our MANIFEST OF DESTINY

You see history repeats and i feel our president wants to turn the clock to 10 years ago. Economic cirisis, high gas prices, stockmarket down the drain. How did daddy solve that problem?


It's funny how this nation that symblolizes liberty can so easily be overtaken by fear coming from media. We have to disarm Saddam Hussein so rumsfelt doesnt have to come out every other week waiving some orange flag and telling us to buy ducktape. Patriotism has worn out already, fear is here to stay.

So with our fear and ducktaped windows, we might as well attack Iraq and call it premtive strike. After all we're americans right? Nothing can hurt us and we'll nuke everythign that moves.


APPENDIX: If there ever another terrorist strike like the one witnessed 9-11, please do be all confused and ask yourselves why would anyone do things like that. Please do wonder when did you ever piss someone off to cause such a terrible reaction. Maybe then you will see where lies the problem

Excellent post. The frothing at the mouth by some people who responded to this is a great example of the brainwashing that can be done by american culture/media. The mere fact that some people (actually: alot of people) think like this:

US: most powerful nation in the world, first truly free nation in the world. What more do you want?

is proof that a severly limited capacity to understand other people's plight/situation/point of view is possible with the right amount of propaganda. This is the type of rhetoric and worldview that the US's current foreign policy is based upon, so watch out world, we're not done being assholes yet.

Because contributing more foreign aid than any other country is being an asshole. Because stepping in to squash dictators from Nazi Germany to Kosovo is being an asshole. Because allowing people from other countries to attend our universities and giving them grants to help do so is being an asshole. Because allowing people to come here to pursue a better life is being an asshole. I can see you've thought this out.

Right......Where is all that support the US had from the international community after 9/11?? Oh, that's right, we've pissed it all away due to Bush's obsession with Iraq.
A relevent from Zbigniew Brzezinski:
"BRZEZINSKI: I think Henry is right in saying that this is very serious, but I think we have to ask ourselves, how have we conducted ourselves? We have in effect said to them, "Line up." We have treated them as if they were the Warsaw Pact. The United States issued orders, and they have to follow.

Now, let me give you one striking example. The president since 9/11 has uttered the phrase "He who is not with us is against us" -- mind you, "He who is not with us is against us," anyone who disagrees with us is against us -- no less than 99 times. We have a concept of the alliance, inherent in this kind of conduct, which involves giving orders and others falling in line.

The issue of Iraq is a complicated issue. It's related to the whole question of proliferation and global stability. Ultimately, it points even to the issue of North Korea, that we haven't talked about at all.

And how we conduct this problem, how we deal with it is essential to the effective exercise of America's global leadership.

We are literally undercutting it right now. We have never been as isolated globally, literally never, since 1945."

 

[konichiwa]

<< So you want to dwell on the distant past? Why isn't India attacking the UK for their colonial period. I don't see half of Africa lining up to kick France's ass. I know, why don't we go beat up Mongolia for the hordes Ghengis Kahn sent! And then we can attack Italy for Roman Imperialism. Yes, you've really got something here >>

Read again...PAST AND PRESENT. Colonialism and slavery (among others) are institutions which affect generations upon generations. To dismiss them as "the past" is naive and ignorant.

<< I don't see half of Africa lining up to kick France's ass >>

Morocco: 1953
Algeria: 1963
Ivory Coast: Still happening

<< Why isn't India attacking the UK for their colonial period >>

Ever heard of this guy, ummm, what was his name? Ah yes, Gandhi.



Read up on your history before you come spouting FALSE facts.

 

[Dark54555]

Originally posted by: freakflag

You did stop a genocide, but at what cost?

I love this statement. :disgust: So typical.

"Yeah, you saved our @sses, bbbut, you're AMERICANS so up yours!"

You said you came from Chezchoslovakia, right? Do you think for half a second that you would enjoy the freeeoms you have now if it were not for the

SELF RIGHTEOUS, ARROGANT AMERICANS,

?

You ungrateful little b@stard.

A "war on terror" is like a "war on hatred"; you CAN NOT stop people from hating America by killing as many of them as you can find! It will not work. You will end up breeding more and more hatred. Period.

That's the most sensible, well stated argument I have heard yet.

They bitch if we don't save them, they bitch if we do save them. We can't win.

 

[przero]

konichiwa - And your solution?

 

[konichiwa]

We're all armchair politicians here, I don't have all the answers, but I can assure you that elitists like Dark54555 will never solve our problems.

 

[przero]

Do you vote?

 

[Dark54555]

Originally posted by: halik
As for the Un thing, it is ok then to be the judge, jury and the executioner in the Iraq matters if UN has been able to do so? How is that of any business to united states in the first place, other than being part of the UN?

It's never our business. Was it our business to bail Europe out of WWII? No, btu we did it anyway. Was it our business to defent the people of Kuwait? No, did it anyway. Was it our business in Kosovo? Nope, did it anyway.

 

[konichiwa]

Yes, I do.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: freakflag

You did stop a genocide, but at what cost?

I love this statement. :disgust: So typical.

"Yeah, you saved our @sses, bbbut, you're AMERICANS so up yours!"

You said you came from Chezchoslovakia, right? Do you think for half a second that you would enjoy the freeeoms you have now if it were not for the

SELF RIGHTEOUS, ARROGANT AMERICANS,

?

You ungrateful little b@stard.

A "war on terror" is like a "war on hatred"; you CAN NOT stop people from hating America by killing as many of them as you can find! It will not work. You will end up breeding more and more hatred. Period.

That's the most sensible, well stated argument I have heard yet.

Umm no offense but if you're talking about WW2, it was the russians that liberated Czechoslovakia...and then occupied it for 40 years, but thats a completly different story

Also as for Kosovo, there has been massive civilian casualties and when you subtract those form the minority that was saved from the genocie you get the actual number. All i'm saying is theres ways to get involved that would eliminate casualities, but then again that would risk the american lives and hence your priorities. I'm just surprised that the UN had enough guts to dispatch ground force whereas the "GREATES, STRONGEST NATION IN THE WORLD" didnt...

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Without a doubt, I have seen some of the best rants today. Good work men.

 

[etech]

Also as for Kosovo, there has been massive civilian casualties

What were the actual numbers?

Does anyone actually know?