I think ffmcobalt's point is this:
Lots of people post "religious posts" with the sole purpose of mocking religion, on this board it seems like Christianity is a big target. Lots of times, people do this because "its cool to do," but with no real legitimate reason. They haven't really studied Christianity or know it well enough to make an informed decision, but they choose to say things, because its seen as "intellectual" or "popular" to do, especially in American culture. People say some Chrisitans aren't open minded (which unfortuantely some aren't) but in the same line of reasoning, refuse to really know why they are attacking Christianity. Or when they do cite reasons, its not acutally pertaining to Christianity itself, but to people they have had problems with or generalizations or stereotypes they have.
Bringing up religious topics for true discussion is one thing, but doing it because it is fun to flame a religion or people of that religion without real reasons or legitimate grounds is another.
Christianity is regularly attacked on these boards, however there have been some (albeit a few) good discussions on topics. I've seen posts that respond very well and intellectually to anit-Chrisitan claims whether scientific, historical, whatever that are quitely ignored or dismissed.
I think this is probably part of why ffmcobalt is upset.
Lots of people post "religious posts" with the sole purpose of mocking religion, on this board it seems like Christianity is a big target. Lots of times, people do this because "its cool to do," but with no real legitimate reason. They haven't really studied Christianity or know it well enough to make an informed decision, but they choose to say things, because its seen as "intellectual" or "popular" to do, especially in American culture. People say some Chrisitans aren't open minded (which unfortuantely some aren't) but in the same line of reasoning, refuse to really know why they are attacking Christianity. Or when they do cite reasons, its not acutally pertaining to Christianity itself, but to people they have had problems with or generalizations or stereotypes they have.
Bringing up religious topics for true discussion is one thing, but doing it because it is fun to flame a religion or people of that religion without real reasons or legitimate grounds is another.
Christianity is regularly attacked on these boards, however there have been some (albeit a few) good discussions on topics. I've seen posts that respond very well and intellectually to anit-Chrisitan claims whether scientific, historical, whatever that are quitely ignored or dismissed.
I think this is probably part of why ffmcobalt is upset.
Go somewhere else if you are looking for people being receptive.... this isn't a religous board. It's a off topic forum on a tech oriented site. If you can't handle that... go someplace else and complain there.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
That is a great post. And true.
I just dismiss the religious naysayers, even though they do make it almost impossible to have a good, serious, and intelligent discussion of that topic on this board, because I feel sorry for them (and not in an arogant way). Like many people are about many important subjects in life, their hearts and minds are closed, their decision made without any open and unbiased study, thought, or meditation. They decry the Bible, though they've never once read it, they think Pat Robertson and his Fundamentalist ilk represent Chrisitianity (when in fact most real Christians that I know think Pat Robertson is the most evil type of false prophet), and they think that people who truly have faith are brainwashed (which would be contrary to the definition of faith).
Anyway, Greyd, with posts like that, you really should let us know what you think more often.
Faith cannot exist without doubt. Were it not for doubt, there would be no need for faith, because it would be unopposed and considered truth without the need of an intellectual leap. This can be as big of a barrier for religious people as anyone else, especially those raised in a fundamentalist environment. They are not taught to systematically disect and consider and adapt their beliefs, and faith for them is what they were taught, because there is no doubt. Without doubt, true faith is meaningless. To discover faith in a concept like God, doubt must be a part of the equation, because God cannot be proven nor can God be disproven. Atheists have no doubt that God does not exist. Fundamentalist religious folks have no doubt that God does. Neither have faith, they have merely conditioning and the same closed mind. If you are to truely accept and embrace a concept like God, it goes beyond religion. If you beleive that God created us, why did he give you a eyes to see and a mind to doubt if not to be use for his ultimate glory?
If god gave you the first child, and you fvcked it up by dropping a filing cabinet on it, why the hell would he give you another?
I've never met a christian who could do that, period, let alone keep their cool when their faith is in question. Plus asking a christian to actually practice what they preach is the equivalent of making Steven Hawking pole-vault, it's impossible.
There's probably one somewhere, but not here (at AT, or even in the US).
I've never met a christian who could do that, period, let alone keep their cool when their faith is in question. Plus asking a christian to actually practice what they preach is the equivalent of making Steven Hawking pole-vault, it's impossible.
There's probably one somewhere, but not here (at AT, or even in the US).
Strange.
All I could feel was a sense of sorrow and pain, knowing how the loss of their child must feel. Kind of like the sun being blotted out and being thrown into coldness and darkness.
To me, what these people did was just an expression of agony. A desperate, heartwrenching attempt to make things right. Imagine being one of those parents. "If only I had been watching him!" "If only I had secured the cabinet to the wall!" If only.
If I lost one of my kids, I know damn well I'd have to be institutionalized, at least for a little while. Someone would need to keep me from killing myself. I'm serious. My family knows it. I would need a freaking tranquilizer injected into me because there is no telling what I might do.
Would you all think that was funny?
Oh, nevermind... that is not a question I should ask you guys.
All I could feel was a sense of sorrow and pain, knowing how the loss of their child must feel. Kind of like the sun being blotted out and being thrown into coldness and darkness.
To me, what these people did was just an expression of agony. A desperate, heartwrenching attempt to make things right. Imagine being one of those parents. "If only I had been watching him!" "If only I had secured the cabinet to the wall!" If only.
If I lost one of my kids, I know damn well I'd have to be institutionalized, at least for a little while. Someone would need to keep me from killing myself. I'm serious. My family knows it. I would need a freaking tranquilizer injected into me because there is no telling what I might do.Would you all think that was funny?
Oh, nevermind... that is not a question I should ask you guys.
so i assume none of you have ever experienced the death of a loved one?
These people are probably just trying to rationalize. They are probably wondering why it happened. When you lost your mom/dad/bro/sis, didn't you wish they were alive again?
But on the other hand, this really doesn't happen that often...and if God were to resurrect the boy, wouldn't it make sense for him (God), to teleport the boy from the graveyard back to their house?
These people are probably just trying to rationalize. They are probably wondering why it happened. When you lost your mom/dad/bro/sis, didn't you wish they were alive again?
But on the other hand, this really doesn't happen that often...and if God were to resurrect the boy, wouldn't it make sense for him (God), to teleport the boy from the graveyard back to their house?
BTW... this isn't really about religion. It's about GRIEF. People of all faiths, walks of life, etc etc are going to react to tragedy in different ways. These people are acting very normally, IMHO. Sure, their actions are colored by their culture... but it's still well within the range of normal.
You all seem like you could be eddy-cated a bit on this subject, so here:
Grief is a process of physical, emotional, social and cognitive reactions to loss. The grieving process is hard to work through! One needs to be patient with themselves or others experiencing loss. Studies have found that people often go through stages or phases of grief. Although responses to loss are as diverse as the people experiencing it, patterns of stages commonly experienced have emerged. Some stages of grief reactions are described below.
Shock/Denial:
A feeling of numbness can last hours to weeks. It is a period often described as "unreal", (i.e. being amazed to have made it through a euthanasia). Some reactions people experince during this stage are: having disorganized thoughts, feeling unaffected, thinking about suicide, feeling numb, being euphoric or hysterical, feeling outside their body, or being talkative, hyper or passive. Other people will feel in denial of the loss. (i.e. "I can't believe he is really gone...it just doesn't seem real.)
Searching/Yearning:
People will often find themselves acutely missing the pet that is gone. Individuals in this phase can be pre-occupied with thoughts of the deceased; they may have dreams about the pet who is gone. Reactions experienced may also include sensing that one sees or hears the pet outside their home. Feelings commonly experienced are intense pining, sadness, fear, anger, relief, irritability, guilt and yearning. Sometimes anger is not directed at the loss, but instead towards a family member, veterinarian, self or God. During this period individuals may find themselves bursting into tears at unexpected times. People may also experience physical illness, pain, weight change, fatigue and change in appetite.
Disorganization:
During this phase individuals are beginning to live their lives without their animal companion and learning new skills. This commonly leads to feeling disorganized, as well as needing to evaluate and learn different ways of managing life (i.e. how to fill that empty spot when coming home without someone to greet you).
Reorganization:
People in grief forget that grief is a process and that through this process, new coping skills are learned. The pet who is gone is usually never forgotten. In the case of death, most individuals never "get over" the loss. However, survivors learn to live with loss. The intensity of the loss changes, and a survivor can rejoin life. One finds that they can eat and sleep. Individuals may establish new relationships with pets. Sadness and crying still occur at times, while simultaneously increased happiness will be experienced.
(ok, so this is for pet owners. Hang on and I'll find a better one!)
You all seem like you could be eddy-cated a bit on this subject, so here:
Grief is a process of physical, emotional, social and cognitive reactions to loss. The grieving process is hard to work through! One needs to be patient with themselves or others experiencing loss. Studies have found that people often go through stages or phases of grief. Although responses to loss are as diverse as the people experiencing it, patterns of stages commonly experienced have emerged. Some stages of grief reactions are described below.
Shock/Denial:
A feeling of numbness can last hours to weeks. It is a period often described as "unreal", (i.e. being amazed to have made it through a euthanasia). Some reactions people experince during this stage are: having disorganized thoughts, feeling unaffected, thinking about suicide, feeling numb, being euphoric or hysterical, feeling outside their body, or being talkative, hyper or passive. Other people will feel in denial of the loss. (i.e. "I can't believe he is really gone...it just doesn't seem real.)
Searching/Yearning:
People will often find themselves acutely missing the pet that is gone. Individuals in this phase can be pre-occupied with thoughts of the deceased; they may have dreams about the pet who is gone. Reactions experienced may also include sensing that one sees or hears the pet outside their home. Feelings commonly experienced are intense pining, sadness, fear, anger, relief, irritability, guilt and yearning. Sometimes anger is not directed at the loss, but instead towards a family member, veterinarian, self or God. During this period individuals may find themselves bursting into tears at unexpected times. People may also experience physical illness, pain, weight change, fatigue and change in appetite.
Disorganization:
During this phase individuals are beginning to live their lives without their animal companion and learning new skills. This commonly leads to feeling disorganized, as well as needing to evaluate and learn different ways of managing life (i.e. how to fill that empty spot when coming home without someone to greet you).
Reorganization:
People in grief forget that grief is a process and that through this process, new coping skills are learned. The pet who is gone is usually never forgotten. In the case of death, most individuals never "get over" the loss. However, survivors learn to live with loss. The intensity of the loss changes, and a survivor can rejoin life. One finds that they can eat and sleep. Individuals may establish new relationships with pets. Sadness and crying still occur at times, while simultaneously increased happiness will be experienced.
(ok, so this is for pet owners. Hang on and I'll find a better one!)
OK.
What they need to do is this:
T = To accept the reality of the loss
E = Experience the pain of the loss
A = Adjust to the new environment without the lost object
R = Reinvest in the new reality
But what they are doing is this:
) DENIAL
In the denial stage we refuse to believe what has happened. We try in our mind to tell ourselves that life is as it was before our loss. We can even make believe to an extent by re enacting rituals that we used to go through with our loved one. Making an extra cup of tea for our loved one who is no longer there, rushing back to tell someone that you have met an old friend. Flashing back to times and conversations in the past as though they we here with us now. They can all be part of this stage.
2) ANGER
We get angry. The anger can manifest itself in many ways. We can blame others for our loss. We can become easily agitated having emotional outbursts. We can even become angry with ourselves. Care must be taken here not to turn this anger inwards. Release of this anger is a far better way to cope with grief in my experience.
3) BARGAINING
Bargaining can be with ourselves or if you are religious with your god. Often we will offer something to try to take away the reality of what has happened. We may try to make a deal, to have our loved one back as they were before the tragic event occured. It is only human to want thing as they were before.
4) DEPRESSION
Depression is a very likely outcome for all people that grieve for a loss. This is what I would consider the most difficult stage of the five to deal with. There can be a the feeling listlessness and tiredness. You may be bursting helplessly into tears. Feeling like there is no purpose to life any more. Feeling guilty, like everything is your own fault. You may find you feel like you are being punished. Pleasure and joy can be difficult to achieve even from things and activities which you have always gained delight. There can even be thoughts of suicide. There are many different ways in which this stage of grief can manifest itself. If you at any time in this stage feel like doing yourself any harm please do seek professional counseling. Self preservation is a must.
5) ACCEPTANCE
The final stage of grief. It is when you realize that life has to go on. You can here accept your loss. You should now be able to regain your energy and goals for the future. It may take some time to get here but you will.
That is all.
What they need to do is this:
T = To accept the reality of the loss
E = Experience the pain of the loss
A = Adjust to the new environment without the lost object
R = Reinvest in the new reality
But what they are doing is this:
) DENIAL
In the denial stage we refuse to believe what has happened. We try in our mind to tell ourselves that life is as it was before our loss. We can even make believe to an extent by re enacting rituals that we used to go through with our loved one. Making an extra cup of tea for our loved one who is no longer there, rushing back to tell someone that you have met an old friend. Flashing back to times and conversations in the past as though they we here with us now. They can all be part of this stage.
2) ANGER
We get angry. The anger can manifest itself in many ways. We can blame others for our loss. We can become easily agitated having emotional outbursts. We can even become angry with ourselves. Care must be taken here not to turn this anger inwards. Release of this anger is a far better way to cope with grief in my experience.
3) BARGAINING
Bargaining can be with ourselves or if you are religious with your god. Often we will offer something to try to take away the reality of what has happened. We may try to make a deal, to have our loved one back as they were before the tragic event occured. It is only human to want thing as they were before.
4) DEPRESSION
Depression is a very likely outcome for all people that grieve for a loss. This is what I would consider the most difficult stage of the five to deal with. There can be a the feeling listlessness and tiredness. You may be bursting helplessly into tears. Feeling like there is no purpose to life any more. Feeling guilty, like everything is your own fault. You may find you feel like you are being punished. Pleasure and joy can be difficult to achieve even from things and activities which you have always gained delight. There can even be thoughts of suicide. There are many different ways in which this stage of grief can manifest itself. If you at any time in this stage feel like doing yourself any harm please do seek professional counseling. Self preservation is a must.
5) ACCEPTANCE
The final stage of grief. It is when you realize that life has to go on. You can here accept your loss. You should now be able to regain your energy and goals for the future. It may take some time to get here but you will.
That is all.
her209
No Lifer
- Oct 11, 2000
- 56,336
- 11
- 0
Originally posted by: Isla
OK.
What they need to do is this:
T = To accept the reality of the loss
E = Experience the pain of the loss
A = Adjust to the new environment without the lost object
R = Reinvest in the new reality
But what they are doing is this:
) DENIAL
In the denial stage we refuse to believe what has happened. We try in our mind to tell ourselves that life is as it was before our loss. We can even make believe to an extent by re enacting rituals that we used to go through with our loved one. Making an extra cup of tea for our loved one who is no longer there, rushing back to tell someone that you have met an old friend. Flashing back to times and conversations in the past as though they we here with us now. They can all be part of this stage.
2) ANGER
We get angry. The anger can manifest itself in many ways. We can blame others for our loss. We can become easily agitated having emotional outbursts. We can even become angry with ourselves. Care must be taken here not to turn this anger inwards. Release of this anger is a far better way to cope with grief in my experience.
3) BARGAINING
Bargaining can be with ourselves or if you are religious with your god. Often we will offer something to try to take away the reality of what has happened. We may try to make a deal, to have our loved one back as they were before the tragic event occured. It is only human to want thing as they were before.
4) DEPRESSION
Depression is a very likely outcome for all people that grieve for a loss. This is what I would consider the most difficult stage of the five to deal with. There can be a the feeling listlessness and tiredness. You may be bursting helplessly into tears. Feeling like there is no purpose to life any more. Feeling guilty, like everything is your own fault. You may find you feel like you are being punished. Pleasure and joy can be difficult to achieve even from things and activities which you have always gained delight. There can even be thoughts of suicide. There are many different ways in which this stage of grief can manifest itself. If you at any time in this stage feel like doing yourself any harm please do seek professional counseling. Self preservation is a must.
5) ACCEPTANCE
The final stage of grief. It is when you realize that life has to go on. You can here accept your loss. You should now be able to regain your energy and goals for the future. It may take some time to get here but you will.
That is all.
They are doing DARBA instead of TEAR? OMG :Q:Q:Q
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
Because most of the people who call themselves atheists here speak like they haven't. 2+2=4 Pardon my sweeping generalization.
Hey, it's okay, I think that most people who call themselves Christians have never actually read it either, and I certainly don't consider myself a great Bible scholar. Far, far from it in fact. The only conclusion I have been able to draw is that people read from it what they want to read from it, emphasizing those parts they want to believe and de-emphasizing those they don't. Like myself, for example... I'm constantly stuck on Matthew 7 of late.
My faith is questioned every day. By myself.
As for practicing what they preach, that's the hardest part. Once a person's eyes and mind are opened, it's easy to know. Doing... now that's the real challenge, the one that requires REAL faith. The only person in the last 100 years that I know that was able to do that was Gandhi.
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: Isla
OK.
What they need to do is this:
T = To accept the reality of the loss
E = Experience the pain of the loss
A = Adjust to the new environment without the lost object
R = Reinvest in the new reality
But what they are doing is this:
) DENIAL
In the denial stage we refuse to believe what has happened. We try in our mind to tell ourselves that life is as it was before our loss. We can even make believe to an extent by re enacting rituals that we used to go through with our loved one. Making an extra cup of tea for our loved one who is no longer there, rushing back to tell someone that you have met an old friend. Flashing back to times and conversations in the past as though they we here with us now. They can all be part of this stage.
2) ANGER
We get angry. The anger can manifest itself in many ways. We can blame others for our loss. We can become easily agitated having emotional outbursts. We can even become angry with ourselves. Care must be taken here not to turn this anger inwards. Release of this anger is a far better way to cope with grief in my experience.
3) BARGAINING
Bargaining can be with ourselves or if you are religious with your god. Often we will offer something to try to take away the reality of what has happened. We may try to make a deal, to have our loved one back as they were before the tragic event occured. It is only human to want thing as they were before.
4) DEPRESSION
Depression is a very likely outcome for all people that grieve for a loss. This is what I would consider the most difficult stage of the five to deal with. There can be a the feeling listlessness and tiredness. You may be bursting helplessly into tears. Feeling like there is no purpose to life any more. Feeling guilty, like everything is your own fault. You may find you feel like you are being punished. Pleasure and joy can be difficult to achieve even from things and activities which you have always gained delight. There can even be thoughts of suicide. There are many different ways in which this stage of grief can manifest itself. If you at any time in this stage feel like doing yourself any harm please do seek professional counseling. Self preservation is a must.
5) ACCEPTANCE
The final stage of grief. It is when you realize that life has to go on. You can here accept your loss. You should now be able to regain your energy and goals for the future. It may take some time to get here but you will.
That is all.
They are doing DARBA instead of TEAR? OMG :Q:Q:Q
You can make fun all you like.
When your heart feels like it is lying outside of you, being stomped on by the unfairness of life, I hope that people have compassion for you. I mean that.
her209
No Lifer
- Oct 11, 2000
- 56,336
- 11
- 0
Zion died at home Sunday when a filing cabinet fell on him while his mother was in the kitchen and his father was attending church, said Verna Pottle, a spokeswoman for the Silverthorne Police Department.
Are you going to tell me that a 2-year-old pushed/pulled this onto him? And the mother didn't hear this because??? :Q
Wow. You really don't see the big picture here, do you?
You've obviously never worked with children and don't have any of your own. He was probably climbing on it and it came down on him. Mom was probably in the kitchen making lunch, and then it was too late (children die like this all the time.) It's not unheard of by any means. It happens. 2 year olds can be squirmy little buggers. THey have just learned how to do things like climb but they don't have any sense. I've spent many a day herding toddlers around and it is exhausting.
Anyway, so tell me again here... what's funny about the pain they are in? And do you think that they deserve what happened because they were stupid?
I don't care about religion. I just feel the pain of these people, and I can't imagine having anything other than compassion for them.
I can't imagine laughing at people who are grieving for the loss of a loved one, period.
It would be a better world if all people understood that we all hurt.
her209
No Lifer
- Oct 11, 2000
- 56,336
- 11
- 0
You are right. I don't have children. But I do know something about kids because I have brothers and newphews. You never ever leave them alone in another room. So am I to feel sorry for this parent who neglected her kid? Besides, I don't know very many 2-year-olds that can scale a filing cabinet let alone topple it.
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