Some reasons why you should be a liberal rather than a conservative

[Craig234]

Yeah, and here we are in 2010 and we have people in poverty. And we're 14 trillion in debt.

The progressive, er, progress we've made in the last century makes 2010 a hell of a lot better than 1900. You take it for granted because it's all you have experienced.

For you it was 'just inevitable progress' - nevermind centuries of stagnation proving you wrong on that.

We're not 14 trillion in debt because of progressives. We're 14 trillion in debt because of the opposite - the contentrated powers and the representatives, especially the last 30 years since Reagan.

We have a lot fewer in poverty, and in less poverty, because of the progressives.

 

[Craig234]

Nobody has a "right" to not be in poverty you tyrannical little shit. That implies the right to material goods produced by other men..and when you make any finite resource a right, you must necessarily enslave (to one degree or another) those providing the goods. In a free society there can be no such thing as a right to wealth. People have a right to WORK their way out of poverty but they do not have a right to use violence directly or indirectly (via government) against others. Your socialistic "rights" or "freedoms" (freedom front want, from need, etc) are a contradiction in terms. They are in fact CLAIMS being presented for collection in return for nothing. It is impossible to satisfy your definition of "rights" (claims to physical assets) without violating the fundamental rights of others to their life, liberty, and property. There can be no such thing as a right to violate rights. Your attempt to describe your barbaric ideas with words like "freedom" is an insult to the English language.

Thanks - you filled the need I had for someone to illustrate that the 'other side' are ideological parrots who can't get out of a paper bag, much less address a societal issue lke poverty. You did that well.

 

[bfdd]

Show me where in libertarian doctrine there are protections against crippling poverty for the familoy of factory workers in 1900 living in their shanty. Not just claiming it because it's convenient now.

And not some vague claim about how wonderful libertarian principles and laissez-faire economics are at making people rich that are in contradiction to the actual history of those policies.

Show me the doctrine that says the family has rights to protect it from the poverty of laissez-faire.

No one has the right period to be protected from poverty and only people living in their own head think so. What rights I'm talking about is the rights we have that the government should of enforced to prevent that kind of abuse. There were already things in place, the lack of oversight and protection of rights is what caused the problem. I already went over this when we were talking about unions. The right to organize is all you need for a union to have power, everything else is just bullshit tacked on.

 

[Moonbeam]

No one has the right period to be protected from poverty and only people living in their own head think so. What rights I'm talking about is the rights we have that the government should of enforced to prevent that kind of abuse. There were already things in place, the lack of oversight and protection of rights is what caused the problem. I already went over this when we were talking about unions. The right to organize is all you need for a union to have power, everything else is just bullshit tacked on.

I should think that because governments are instituted among men equally endowed with the inalienable rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and because the government derives its just powers from the consent of the governed, that it would be the right of the people to institute such government as to them seems most likely to effect these rights. It would seem then that if the people in their good judgment and wisdom determine that the government has work to do in their behalf, then it is their right to impel that government to provide those works or be subject to natural revolution wherein the bonds that tie them to that government be broken.

 

[blackangst1]

Yeah, and here we are in 2010 and we have people in poverty. And we're 14 trillion in debt.

As soon as you realize and understand no political make up will eliminate poverty, the sooner you will focus on reality. Gnashing your teeth about something that will never, ever happen is fruitless.

 

[Moonbeam]

As soon as you realize and understand no political make up will eliminate poverty, the sooner you will focus on reality. Gnashing your teeth about something that will never, ever happen is fruitless.

Politics is an expression of where people are. If folk are too un-envolved to see a way to eliminate poverty, no policy to do so can be enacted. What you are saying is that your vision is too impoverished to have any real vision.

Furthermore, you also express the fact that you have given up on yourself. Remember that the character of a person is determined by his aim. Always aim high to be high.

 

[blackangst1]

Politics is an expression of where people are. If folk are too un-envolved to see a way to eliminate poverty, no policy to do so can be enacted. What you are saying is that your vision is too impoverished to have any real vision.

Furthermore, you also express the fact that you have given up on yourself. Remember that the character of a person is determined by his aim. Always aim high to be high.

Dont misunderstand me. Theres nothing wrong with aiming high; however, do so realistically. There will always be a percentage of the population in poverty. The goal is twofold: first, to have that percentage as small as possible, and second, have the standard of living in a country high enough that poverty is as comfortable as possible.

Im not saying we as a country shouldnt care. What Im saying, as Ive said in many other threads, is although the stories of those in poverty are heart wrenching, overall those IN poverty in this country have it pretty good. The poverty that exists in much of the rest of the world simply doesnt exist in this country.

 

[nobodyknows]

Politics is an expression of where people are. If folk are too un-envolved to see a way to eliminate poverty, no policy to do so can be enacted. What you are saying is that your vision is too impoverished to have any real vision.

Furthermore, you also express the fact that you have given up on yourself. Remember that the character of a person is determined by his aim. Always aim high to be high.

Ouch!! Talk about coming right to the point. That had to hurt no matter how superior he feels he is.

 

[nobodyknows]

Dont misunderstand me. Theres nothing wrong with aiming high; however, do so realistically. There will always be a percentage of the population in poverty. The goal is twofold: first, to have that percentage as small as possible, and second, have the standard of living in a country high enough that poverty is as comfortable as possible.

Im not saying we as a country shouldnt care. What Im saying, as Ive said in many other threads, is although the stories of those in poverty are heart wrenching, overall those IN poverty in this country have it pretty good. The poverty that exists in much of the rest of the world simply doesnt exist in this country.

The wealth that exisits in this country doesn't exisit in the rest of the world either. Following your logic I guess the wealthy should get used to the idea that for the most part they are overpaid and underworked so they should settle for less.

 

[blackangst1]

The wealth that exisits in this country doesn't exisit in the rest of the world either. Following your logic I guess the wealthy should get used to the idea that for the most part they are overpaid and underworked so they should settle for less.

That doesnt follow my logic...at all.

 

[Ozoned]

As soon as you realize and understand no political make up will eliminate poverty, the sooner you will focus on reality. Gnashing your teeth about something that will never, ever happen is fruitless.

There is a radical difference between those in abject poverty, and those in assisted poverty.

If our government measured poverty in the way they do now, and then add the value of what those in poverty are given, you would find that the poverty level in this country is extremely low. Those just above the level for help often find their circumstance below those receiving help. They have incentive to go backwards. How fucked up is that?

Poverty is also determined by the way people report to the census takers. I recall several years ago a commercial advising people on how to report certain things to the census people, in order to gain more federal funds for their district.

The poster here that claims that lifting people out of poverty is a pure liberal accomplishment must realize that simply sharpening the pencil, and giving people free shit is not a cure.

 

[Vic]

Jesus also taught self reliance, so fuck poor people. They are poor because of their own bad decisions.

Hey, spidey, how about you actually bother to read the Gospels first before pretending you know what Jesus said, okay?

 

[Vic]

Anyway, I use both liberal and conservative in their classical definitions, and not as more recently redefined by spoonfed Fox News fascists and CNN-brainwashed communists.

 

[Moonbeam]

There is a radical difference between those in abject poverty, and those in assisted poverty.

If our government measured poverty in the way they do now, and then add the value of what those in poverty are given, you would find that the poverty level in this country is extremely low. Those just above the level for help often find their circumstance below those receiving help. They have incentive to go backwards. How fucked up is that?

Poverty is also determined by the way people report to the census takers. I recall several years ago a commercial advising people on how to report certain things to the census people, in order to gain more federal funds for their district.

The poster here that claims that lifting people out of poverty is a pure liberal accomplishment must realize that simply sharpening the pencil, and giving people free shit is not a cure.

Well I am a progressive liberal and I have no idea what that means according to a dictionary. It's just some words I use to make it sound I can describe something. What a progressive liberal like me believes is that you can help people only when you help them without them knowing you are doing so. You have to make it look like they are helping themselves, that what they are getting they are getting because of their own personal initiative.

It is a psychological truth, I maintain or believe in, that people only value what they earn and that what people get for free they don't value. We value what we invest in, what we put sweat equity in, what we earn and we do so because of the self satisfaction that comes from having the capacity to earn.

So to help the poor you have to change the mentality they have that they are worthless and the external way you do this is replace failure with success.

This is what micro lenders do all over the world. You get a little bit and repay it and learn you can do so.

 

[Avvocato Effetti]

The poor are not worthless.

They are made in the image of God and are just as valuable as the President of the United States.

The place they occupy in society is up to each person to decide.

The case law is cited below:


Deuteronomy 30

Conditions for Restoration and Blessing

1 I have now given you a choice between a blessing and a curse. When all these things have happened to you, and you are living among the nations where the Lord your God has scattered you, you will remember the choice I gave you.2 If you and your descendants will turn back to the Lord and with all your heart obey his commands that I am giving you today,3 then the Lord your God will have mercy on you. He will bring you back from the nations where he has scattered you, and he will make you prosperous again.4 Even if you are scattered to the farthest corners of the earth, the Lord your God will gather you together and bring you back,5 so that you may again take possession of the land where your ancestors once lived. And he will make you more prosperous and more numerous than your ancestors ever were.6 The Lord your God will give you and your descendants obedient hearts, so that you will love him with all your heart, and you will continue to live in that land.7 He will turn all these curses against your enemies, who hated you and oppressed you,8 and you will again obey him and keep all his commands that I am giving you today.9 The Lord will make you prosperous in all that you do; you will have many children and a lot of livestock, and your fields will produce abundant crops. He will be as glad to make you prosperous as he was to make your ancestors prosperous,10 but you will have to obey him and keep all his laws that are written in this book of his teachings. You will have to turn to him with all your heart.

 

[blackangst1]

There is a radical difference between those in abject poverty, and those in assisted poverty.

If our government measured poverty in the way they do now, and then add the value of what those in poverty are given, you would find that the poverty level in this country is extremely low. Those just above the level for help often find their circumstance below those receiving help. They have incentive to go backwards. How fucked up is that?

Poverty is also determined by the way people report to the census takers. I recall several years ago a commercial advising people on how to report certain things to the census people, in order to gain more federal funds for their district.

The poster here that claims that lifting people out of poverty is a pure liberal accomplishment must realize that simply sharpening the pencil, and giving people free shit is not a cure.

No argument here.

 

[blackangst1]

The poor are not worthless.

They are made in the image of God and are just as valuable as the President of the United States.

The place they occupy in society is up to each person to decide.

The case law is cited below:


Deuteronomy 30

Conditions for Restoration and Blessing

1 I have now given you a choice between a blessing and a curse. When all these things have happened to you, and you are living among the nations where the Lord your God has scattered you, you will remember the choice I gave you.2 If you and your descendants will turn back to the Lord and with all your heart obey his commands that I am giving you today,3 then the Lord your God will have mercy on you. He will bring you back from the nations where he has scattered you, and he will make you prosperous again.4 Even if you are scattered to the farthest corners of the earth, the Lord your God will gather you together and bring you back,5 so that you may again take possession of the land where your ancestors once lived. And he will make you more prosperous and more numerous than your ancestors ever were.6 The Lord your God will give you and your descendants obedient hearts, so that you will love him with all your heart, and you will continue to live in that land.7 He will turn all these curses against your enemies, who hated you and oppressed you,8 and you will again obey him and keep all his commands that I am giving you today.9 The Lord will make you prosperous in all that you do; you will have many children and a lot of livestock, and your fields will produce abundant crops. He will be as glad to make you prosperous as he was to make your ancestors prosperous,10 but you will have to obey him and keep all his laws that are written in this book of his teachings. You will have to turn to him with all your heart.

Who said the poor are worthless?

 

[Vic]

Who said the poor are worthless?

spidey07 did, and claimed that Jesus said the same.

edit: I'll quote from the Sermon on the Mount just because that's what Jesus really said, spidey's false prophet of a pastor apparently to the contrary:

Matthew 6
19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 "The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light.
23 But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.
25 "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?
26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?
27 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
28 "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin.
29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.
30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31 So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.
33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

 

[bfdd]

I should think that because governments are instituted among men equally endowed with the inalienable rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and because the government derives its just powers from the consent of the governed, that it would be the right of the people to institute such government as to them seems most likely to effect these rights. It would seem then that if the people in their good judgment and wisdom determine that the government has work to do in their behalf, then it is their right to impel that government to provide those works or be subject to natural revolution wherein the bonds that tie them to that government be broken.

do you think the government REALLY cares about the consent of the governed? do you think people care enough to know enough to know who they vote for outside of that one wears a nice suit, that one has a D next to his name, and that one has an R next to their name? they don't, our politicians stopped caring about our consent when they realized they could just market themselves as whatever idiots are interested in now. again life liberty and the pursuit of happiness are rights bestowed upon you at birth, the right to not live impoverished isn't.

also this thread has gone way off topic we were talking about apes and we should of stayed on the topic of apes. they are awesome. i also like bears.

 

[Avvocato Effetti]

Vic,

Are the poor obligated to follow the recommendations of the Sermon on the Mount?

 

[Moonbeam]

Vic,

Are the poor obligated to follow the recommendations of the Sermon on the Mount?

How can you be poor if you follow the recommendations of the Sermon on the Mount?

 

[Avvocato Effetti]

Moonbeam,

Congratulations!

You have answered correctly.

Instead of massive government tax and redistribution of wealth, why don't we distribute copies of the Sermon on the Mount?

()

 

[Ozoned]

So to help the poor you have to change the mentality they have that they are worthless and the external way you do this is replace failure with success.

If living my life the way I do, not worrying about the poor and downtrodden, taking care of number #1, doing things that I want to do, working and accumulating wealth, (you get the picture) results in someone else getting a job, rather than a welfare check, then I have achieved that.

That is my cold, callous, and egotistical pig Conservative contribution to everything Liberal.

I don't really need or want the recognition that I indirectly helped somebody.

I despise the Liberal that takes the fruit of my labor, keeps a huge cut, hands out what is left, and takes the credit as his own.

Your OP asks to choose: be like a loving Jesus or an egotistical pig conservative.

You made your choice based upon the way you stacked the deck. Not much value in that.

 

[Moonbeam]

If living my life the way I do, not worrying about the poor and downtrodden, taking care of number #1, doing things that I want to do, working and accumulating wealth, (you get the picture) results in someone else getting a job, rather than a welfare check, then I have achieved that.

That is my cold, callous, and egotistical pig Conservative contribution to everything Liberal.

I don't really need or want the recognition that I indirectly helped somebody.

I despise the Liberal that takes the fruit of my labor, keeps a huge cut, hands out what is left, and takes the credit as his own.

Your OP asks to choose: be like a loving Jesus or an egotistical pig conservative.

You made your choice based upon the way you stacked the deck. Not much value in that.

Your job is to show that I stacked the deck, not assert it as a fact known only to you. As a Liberal, of course, somebody with far greater insight into human nature than you have, I know, as I pointed out earlier, far better than you do what you want and what you need. It was the reason that Jesus came and spoke, no, that men live in darkness and know not of the kingdom of heaven?

You are only an egotist when you say you are happy with self gratification. You are happy to fill a void in feeling worthwhile that your self hate has left you with, but that isn't happiness, that is satisfying an itch. Your needs are the result of feelings you are unconscious that you have and the only way to the light is through the conscious awareness that your needs are the result of buying into lies.

 

[Ozoned]

Jesus cared for the poor as liberals do.


Watch how in everything conservatives say about welfare there is this hate of folk who can't make it on their own,

This is your stacked deck. These two statements simply are not true.