Some quick statistics for those accusing Israel of Genocide

[Doboji]

Assuming the high estimates of deaths in lebanon so far at 800 in 28 days.

That works out to: 28.5 deaths per day

which is: 10,402 deaths per year.

According to the CIA world factbook there are ~3,874,050 people in lebanon.

Population growth rate is 1.84%

This means that each year there are ~71,000 new lebanese.

Which means Israel would need to kill at least 71,000 lebanese per year in order to simply counter the population growth rate.

That would be... ~200 people per day. Assuming Israel was actually killing 800 people per day... it would take Israel 6,456 years to eliminate the entire Lebanese population.

 

[Rainsford]

Wow, I can't believe you just posted that... Well hell, if numbers are the new argument, we have no right to be upset about 9/11, do we? That was about 3,000 odd deaths in one day out of a population of 300 million or so. Relatively speaking, Israel has inflicted 2/3 of a 9/11 on Lebanon every day for the past 28 days. And WE invaded two countries over that, talk about an overreaction!

I realize that's a stupid argument, I'm just trying to prove a point here. The lengths you people go to to brush off those deaths like they are nothing is just pathetic...there is something really wrong with you guys, something fundamentally bad.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Wow, I can't believe you just posted that... Well hell, if numbers are the new argument, we have no right to be upset about 9/11, do we? That was about 3,000 odd deaths in one day out of a population of 300 million or so. Relatively speaking, Israel has inflicted 2/3 of a 9/11 on Lebanon every day for the past 28 days. And WE invaded two countries over that, talk about an overreaction!

I realize that's a stupid argument, I'm just trying to prove a point here. The lengths you people go to to brush off those deaths like they are nothing is just pathetic...there is something really wrong with you guys, something fundamentally bad.

I'm not brushing off the deaths... I'm arguing with those who would call this a genocide, or compare it to Nazi germany.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Wow, I can't believe you just posted that... Well hell, if numbers are the new argument, we have no right to be upset about 9/11, do we? That was about 3,000 odd deaths in one day out of a population of 300 million or so. Relatively speaking, Israel has inflicted 2/3 of a 9/11 on Lebanon every day for the past 28 days. And WE invaded two countries over that, talk about an overreaction!

I realize that's a stupid argument, I'm just trying to prove a point here. The lengths you people go to to brush off those deaths like they are nothing is just pathetic...there is something really wrong with you guys, something fundamentally bad.

The lengths you people go to support hezbollahs hiding behind women and children as well as dressing up as local people is justified? Causing the damage and destruction as well as not caring about people they hide behind as being perfectly acceptable?
Strange sort of logic you have there.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Wow, I can't believe you just posted that... Well hell, if numbers are the new argument, we have no right to be upset about 9/11, do we? That was about 3,000 odd deaths in one day out of a population of 300 million or so. Relatively speaking, Israel has inflicted 2/3 of a 9/11 on Lebanon every day for the past 28 days. And WE invaded two countries over that, talk about an overreaction!

I realize that's a stupid argument, I'm just trying to prove a point here. The lengths you people go to to brush off those deaths like they are nothing is just pathetic...there is something really wrong with you guys, something fundamentally bad.

None... NOT ONE of these deaths would have occurred if Hezbollah did not wage war from people's houses. Hundreds of thousands of innocents died to achieve victory in WW2, yet we are supposed to be calling for our own defeat over a small number of innocents whom Hezbollah places within the war zone?

If the deaths are to end, Hezbollah can surrender their war against Israel at any time. If that does not happen you will simply be calling for a ?Peace in Our Time? repeat from 1938. You cannot simply force Israel to surrender because their response to being attacked is costing Lebanon lives. To do so empowers Hezbollah.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Wow, I can't believe you just posted that... Well hell, if numbers are the new argument, we have no right to be upset about 9/11, do we? That was about 3,000 odd deaths in one day out of a population of 300 million or so. Relatively speaking, Israel has inflicted 2/3 of a 9/11 on Lebanon every day for the past 28 days. And WE invaded two countries over that, talk about an overreaction!

I realize that's a stupid argument, I'm just trying to prove a point here. The lengths you people go to to brush off those deaths like they are nothing is just pathetic...there is something really wrong with you guys, something fundamentally bad.

The lengths you people go to support hezbollahs hiding behind women and children as well as dressing up as local people is justified? Causing the damage and destruction as well as not caring about people they hide behind as being perfectly acceptable?
Strange sort of logic you have there.

So it would be OK for Al Qaida to bomb US cities if only they'd claim to be targetting a soldier or politician hiding in that city?

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Wow, I can't believe you just posted that... Well hell, if numbers are the new argument, we have no right to be upset about 9/11, do we? That was about 3,000 odd deaths in one day out of a population of 300 million or so. Relatively speaking, Israel has inflicted 2/3 of a 9/11 on Lebanon every day for the past 28 days. And WE invaded two countries over that, talk about an overreaction!

I realize that's a stupid argument, I'm just trying to prove a point here. The lengths you people go to to brush off those deaths like they are nothing is just pathetic...there is something really wrong with you guys, something fundamentally bad.

The lengths you people go to support hezbollahs hiding behind women and children as well as dressing up as local people is justified? Causing the damage and destruction as well as not caring about people they hide behind as being perfectly acceptable?
Strange sort of logic you have there.

So it would be OK for Al Qaida to bomb US cities if only they'd claim to be targetting a soldier or politician hiding in that city?

Exactly. That's the same warped apologism al Qaida could use to justify hitting the World Trade Centers. After all, there were government offices there, so the Towers were legitimate targets. Sure, there was "collateral damage" on civilians, but after all, "war is hell". Innocent people die in wars. That's just the way it is.

:roll:

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Wow, I can't believe you just posted that... Well hell, if numbers are the new argument, we have no right to be upset about 9/11, do we? That was about 3,000 odd deaths in one day out of a population of 300 million or so. Relatively speaking, Israel has inflicted 2/3 of a 9/11 on Lebanon every day for the past 28 days. And WE invaded two countries over that, talk about an overreaction!

I realize that's a stupid argument, I'm just trying to prove a point here. The lengths you people go to to brush off those deaths like they are nothing is just pathetic...there is something really wrong with you guys, something fundamentally bad.

The lengths you people go to support hezbollahs hiding behind women and children as well as dressing up as local people is justified? Causing the damage and destruction as well as not caring about people they hide behind as being perfectly acceptable?
Strange sort of logic you have there.

So it would be OK for Al Qaida to bomb US cities if only they'd claim to be targetting a soldier or politician hiding in that city?

Exactly. That's the same warped apologism al Qaida could use to justify hitting the World Trade Centers. After all, there were government offices there, so the Towers were legitimate targets. Sure, there was "collateral damage" on civilians, but after all, "war is hell". Innocent people die in wars. That's just the way it is.

:roll:

If the United States were at war with Al Qaida then the world trade centers would probably have been legitimate targets, the pentagon definitly would have been.... especially if Al Qaida was attacking Israeli style... How many casualties do you think there would have been on 9-11 if Al Qaida gave the United States 2 hours warning before the attack?

And then there's the matter of using civillian airliners as kamakazee attack planes.

If you can't see that Israel is NOT using the same methods as Hezbollah and Al Qaida, then I'm not sure there's anyway for us to continue this conversation. If Israel was using the same tactics as Hezbollah or Al Qaida i.e. inflict the maximum civillian casualties to shock the population into surrender... The death toll would be more like 800,000 by now.

-Max

 

[Czar]

Doboji,
do check out the definition of genocide

http://www.answers.com/genocide&r=67

Genocide can be committed in a number of ways, including killing members of a group or causing them serious mental or bodily harm, deliberately inflicting conditions that will bring about a group's physical destruction, imposing measures on a group to prevent births, and forcefully transferring children from one group to another.

edit.
And oh, Al queda was at war with the US, so according to you then the world trade center was probably a legitimate target.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: Czar
Doboji,
do check out the definition of genocide

http://www.answers.com/genocide&r=67

Genocide can be committed in a number of ways, including killing members of a group or causing them serious mental or bodily harm, deliberately inflicting conditions that will bring about a group's physical destruction, imposing measures on a group to prevent births, and forcefully transferring children from one group to another.

I don't see what that definition changes. In order to claim this was a genocide you would have to show that Israel was attempting to eliminate the Lebanese people as a whole. The statistics above prove that as impossible. And I find it really hard to imagine that you can really commit "mental" genocide.

edit.
And oh, Al queda was at war with the US, so according to you then the world trade center was probably a legitimate target.

Then they should have warned the civillians in the towers, and they shouldn't have used civillian airliners.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Exactly. That's the same warped apologism al Qaida could use to justify hitting the World Trade Centers. After all, there were government offices there, so the Towers were legitimate targets. Sure, there was "collateral damage" on civilians, but after all, "war is hell". Innocent people die in wars. That's just the way it is.

:roll:

If the United States were at war with Al Qaida then the world trade centers would probably have been legitimate targets, the pentagon definitly would have been.... especially if Al Qaida was attacking Israeli style... How many casualties do you think there would have been on 9-11 if Al Qaida gave the United States 2 hours warning before the attack?

And then there's the matter of using civillian airliners as kamakazee attack planes.

If you can't see that Israel is NOT using the same methods as Hezbollah and Al Qaida, then I'm not sure there's anyway for us to continue this conversation. If Israel was using the same tactics as Hezbollah or Al Qaida i.e. inflict the maximum civillian casualties to shock the population into surrender... The death toll would be more like 800,000 by now.

-Max

I did not suggest Israel was "using the same tactics", not even close. What Israel and its apologists share with AQ is the same warped dismissive justification of innocent deaths as collateral damage, an inevitable by-product of war. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Exactly. That's the same warped apologism al Qaida could use to justify hitting the World Trade Centers. After all, there were government offices there, so the Towers were legitimate targets. Sure, there was "collateral damage" on civilians, but after all, "war is hell". Innocent people die in wars. That's just the way it is.

:roll:

If the United States were at war with Al Qaida then the world trade centers would probably have been legitimate targets, the pentagon definitly would have been.... especially if Al Qaida was attacking Israeli style... How many casualties do you think there would have been on 9-11 if Al Qaida gave the United States 2 hours warning before the attack?

And then there's the matter of using civillian airliners as kamakazee attack planes.

If you can't see that Israel is NOT using the same methods as Hezbollah and Al Qaida, then I'm not sure there's anyway for us to continue this conversation. If Israel was using the same tactics as Hezbollah or Al Qaida i.e. inflict the maximum civillian casualties to shock the population into surrender... The death toll would be more like 800,000 by now.

-Max

I did not suggest Israel was "using the same tactics", not even close. What Israel and its apologists share with AQ is the same warped dismissive justification of innocent deaths as collateral damage, an inevitable by-product of war. Two wrongs don't make a right.

By your warped logic the United States should not have entered WWII, after all they killed innocent people, and two wrongs don't make a right.

-Max

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Doboji
Assuming the high estimates of deaths in lebanon so far at 800 in 28 days.

That works out to: 28.5 deaths per day

which is: 10,402 deaths per year.

According to the CIA world factbook there are ~3,874,050 people in lebanon.

Population growth rate is 1.84%

This means that each year there are ~71,000 new lebanese.

Which means Israel would need to kill at least 71,000 lebanese per year in order to simply counter the population growth rate.

That would be... ~200 people per day. Assuming Israel was actually killing 800 people per day... it would take Israel 6,456 years to eliminate the entire Lebanese population.

Your math if flawed. Your growth rate according to CIA world factbook assumes the peaceful Lebanon where people were enjoying themselves on the beach and trying to rebuild their country from the last Israeli operation. Instead Israel has blockaded the entire country and isolated the population into pockets and bombs any vehicle whatsoever found travelling on what's left of the roads. Right now there is a negative growth rate.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Czar
Doboji,
do check out the definition of genocide

http://www.answers.com/genocide&r=67

Genocide can be committed in a number of ways, including killing members of a group or causing them serious mental or bodily harm, deliberately inflicting conditions that will bring about a group's physical destruction, imposing measures on a group to prevent births, and forcefully transferring children from one group to another.

I don't see what that definition changes. In order to claim this was a genocide you would have to show that Israel was attempting to eliminate the Lebanese people as a whole. The statistics above prove that as impossible. And I find it really hard to imagine that you can really commit "mental" genocide.

edit.
And oh, Al queda was at war with the US, so according to you then the world trade center was probably a legitimate target.

Then they should have warned the civillians in the towers, and they shouldn't have used civillian airliners.

1. About one forth of the population displaced. Enough?

2. Maybe they left a note at the doorstep, who knows, but if they did then it would have been ok right?

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Doboji
Assuming the high estimates of deaths in lebanon so far at 800 in 28 days.

That works out to: 28.5 deaths per day

which is: 10,402 deaths per year.

According to the CIA world factbook there are ~3,874,050 people in lebanon.

Population growth rate is 1.84%

This means that each year there are ~71,000 new lebanese.

Which means Israel would need to kill at least 71,000 lebanese per year in order to simply counter the population growth rate.

That would be... ~200 people per day. Assuming Israel was actually killing 800 people per day... it would take Israel 6,456 years to eliminate the entire Lebanese population.

Your math if flawed. Your growth rate according to CIA world factbook assumes the peaceful Lebanon where people were enjoying themselves on the beach and trying to rebuild their country from the last Israeli operation. Instead Israel has blockaded the entire country and isolated the population into pockets and bombs any vehicle whatsoever found travelling on what's left of the roads. Right now there is a negative growth rate.

At the current rate of death it would take Israel 96 years to kill 1 million people.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Czar
Doboji,
do check out the definition of genocide

http://www.answers.com/genocide&r=67

Genocide can be committed in a number of ways, including killing members of a group or causing them serious mental or bodily harm, deliberately inflicting conditions that will bring about a group's physical destruction, imposing measures on a group to prevent births, and forcefully transferring children from one group to another.

I don't see what that definition changes. In order to claim this was a genocide you would have to show that Israel was attempting to eliminate the Lebanese people as a whole. The statistics above prove that as impossible. And I find it really hard to imagine that you can really commit "mental" genocide.

edit.
And oh, Al queda was at war with the US, so according to you then the world trade center was probably a legitimate target.

Then they should have warned the civillians in the towers, and they shouldn't have used civillian airliners.

1. About one forth of the population displaced. Enough?

2. Maybe they left a note at the doorstep, who knows, but if they did then it would have been ok right?

displaced population in wartime != genocide if this was the case Hezbollah is commiting a genocide against Israelis... a pretty substantial portion of Israel's population is displaced too you know.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Doboji
By your warped logic the United States should not have entered WWII, after all they killed innocent people, and two wrongs don't make a right.

-Max

Your words, not mine. I'm sorry if you are incapable -- or too partisan -- to see the difference.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Exactly. That's the same warped apologism al Qaida could use to justify hitting the World Trade Centers. After all, there were government offices there, so the Towers were legitimate targets. Sure, there was "collateral damage" on civilians, but after all, "war is hell". Innocent people die in wars. That's just the way it is.

:roll:

If the United States were at war with Al Qaida then the world trade centers would probably have been legitimate targets, the pentagon definitly would have been.... especially if Al Qaida was attacking Israeli style... How many casualties do you think there would have been on 9-11 if Al Qaida gave the United States 2 hours warning before the attack?

And then there's the matter of using civillian airliners as kamakazee attack planes.

If you can't see that Israel is NOT using the same methods as Hezbollah and Al Qaida, then I'm not sure there's anyway for us to continue this conversation. If Israel was using the same tactics as Hezbollah or Al Qaida i.e. inflict the maximum civillian casualties to shock the population into surrender... The death toll would be more like 800,000 by now.

-Max

I did not suggest Israel was "using the same tactics", not even close. What Israel and its apologists share with AQ is the same warped dismissive justification of innocent deaths as collateral damage, an inevitable by-product of war. Two wrongs don't make a right.

So you don't think innocent deaths are an inevitable by-product of war?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Czar
Doboji,
do check out the definition of genocide

http://www.answers.com/genocide&r=67

Genocide can be committed in a number of ways, including killing members of a group or causing them serious mental or bodily harm, deliberately inflicting conditions that will bring about a group's physical destruction, imposing measures on a group to prevent births, and forcefully transferring children from one group to another.

edit.
And oh, Al queda was at war with the US, so according to you then the world trade center was probably a legitimate target.

Wow the definition of genocide now extends to uncomfortable conditions? Never under estimate the pyscho babble from the left to change definitions to their agenda.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Czar
Doboji,
do check out the definition of genocide

http://www.answers.com/genocide&r=67

Genocide can be committed in a number of ways, including killing members of a group or causing them serious mental or bodily harm, deliberately inflicting conditions that will bring about a group's physical destruction, imposing measures on a group to prevent births, and forcefully transferring children from one group to another.

edit.
And oh, Al queda was at war with the US, so according to you then the world trade center was probably a legitimate target.

Wow the definition of genocide now extends to uncomfortable conditions? Never under estimate the pyscho babble from the left to change definitions to their agenda.

*cough* torture memos

 

[lozina]

Here's a way to put your number sin perspective. Lets compare your current numbers in Lebanon to the numbers during the Bosnian crisis.

Bosnian War lasted from April 1 1992 to December 14 1995
that's approx. 1330 days the conflict lasted.

The civilian casualties on Bosnian side looks like is 33,000

That comes out to about 25 civilian deaths per day.

Compare that to the 28.5 deaths per day you derived for the Lebanese conflict

The aftermath of the Bosnian War was accusations of genocide and ethnic cleansing and numerous war crimes against Serb leaders including the President. Anyone want to bet though that Israel will face any such consequences for their actions in Lebanon? Didnt think so...

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: lozina
Here's a way to put your number sin perspective. Lets compare your current numbers in Lebanon to the numbers during the Bosnian crisis.

Bosnian War lasted from April 1 1992 to December 14 1995
that's approx. 1330 days the conflict lasted.

The civilian casualties on Bosnian side looks like is 33,000

That comes out to about 25 civilian deaths per day.

Compare that to the 28.5 deaths per day you derived for the Lebanese conflict

The aftermath of the Bosnian War was accusations of genocide and ethnic cleansing and numerous war crimes against Serb leaders including the President. Anyone want to bet though that Israel will face any such consequences for their actions in Lebanon? Didnt think so...

Are Israeli's taking hundreds of Muslims, lining them up along ditches and putting bullets in the back of their heads?

Didnt think so, but nice try to equate the two.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Exactly. That's the same warped apologism al Qaida could use to justify hitting the World Trade Centers. After all, there were government offices there, so the Towers were legitimate targets. Sure, there was "collateral damage" on civilians, but after all, "war is hell". Innocent people die in wars. That's just the way it is.

:roll:

If the United States were at war with Al Qaida then the world trade centers would probably have been legitimate targets, the pentagon definitly would have been.... especially if Al Qaida was attacking Israeli style... How many casualties do you think there would have been on 9-11 if Al Qaida gave the United States 2 hours warning before the attack?

And then there's the matter of using civillian airliners as kamakazee attack planes.

If you can't see that Israel is NOT using the same methods as Hezbollah and Al Qaida, then I'm not sure there's anyway for us to continue this conversation. If Israel was using the same tactics as Hezbollah or Al Qaida i.e. inflict the maximum civillian casualties to shock the population into surrender... The death toll would be more like 800,000 by now.

-Max

I did not suggest Israel was "using the same tactics", not even close. What Israel and its apologists share with AQ is the same warped dismissive justification of innocent deaths as collateral damage, an inevitable by-product of war. Two wrongs don't make a right.

So you don't think innocent deaths are an inevitable by-product of war?

More trolling. Way to evade the point.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Exactly. That's the same warped apologism al Qaida could use to justify hitting the World Trade Centers. After all, there were government offices there, so the Towers were legitimate targets. Sure, there was "collateral damage" on civilians, but after all, "war is hell". Innocent people die in wars. That's just the way it is.

:roll:

If the United States were at war with Al Qaida then the world trade centers would probably have been legitimate targets, the pentagon definitly would have been.... especially if Al Qaida was attacking Israeli style... How many casualties do you think there would have been on 9-11 if Al Qaida gave the United States 2 hours warning before the attack?

And then there's the matter of using civillian airliners as kamakazee attack planes.

If you can't see that Israel is NOT using the same methods as Hezbollah and Al Qaida, then I'm not sure there's anyway for us to continue this conversation. If Israel was using the same tactics as Hezbollah or Al Qaida i.e. inflict the maximum civillian casualties to shock the population into surrender... The death toll would be more like 800,000 by now.

-Max

I did not suggest Israel was "using the same tactics", not even close. What Israel and its apologists share with AQ is the same warped dismissive justification of innocent deaths as collateral damage, an inevitable by-product of war. Two wrongs don't make a right.

So you don't think innocent deaths are an inevitable by-product of war?

More trolling. Way to evade the point.

What is the point, exactly, since you won't answer the question? It seems that any logic you don't like is considered "trolling" by you. :roll:

I'll ask it again, but you probably won't answer it because you don't want to expose your lack of logic. So you don't think innocent deaths are an inevitable by-product of war?

Since you've basically morally absolved every terrorist in the world of their actions, or likewise accused every participant in every war of terrorism.

In your world, governments cannot attack terrorists, because they are constantly mingled with civilians, and therefore any attack that could also take out civilians is wrong.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: lozina
Here's a way to put your number sin perspective. Lets compare your current numbers in Lebanon to the numbers during the Bosnian crisis.

Bosnian War lasted from April 1 1992 to December 14 1995
that's approx. 1330 days the conflict lasted.

The civilian casualties on Bosnian side looks like is 33,000

That comes out to about 25 civilian deaths per day.

Compare that to the 28.5 deaths per day you derived for the Lebanese conflict

The aftermath of the Bosnian War was accusations of genocide and ethnic cleansing and numerous war crimes against Serb leaders including the President. Anyone want to bet though that Israel will face any such consequences for their actions in Lebanon? Didnt think so...

Are Israeli's taking hundreds of Muslims, lining them up along ditches and putting bullets in the back of their heads?

Didnt think so, but nice try to equate the two.

Apparently they don't need to. Their laser-guided "smart bombs" which always hit their intended target unless the intended target draws criticism (hence it conveniently becomes a "mistake") are quite sufficient enough