Yes. The United Nations, if it didn't exist mainly for the interests of the rich, Western nations, would've been given more teeth to stop problems like these at their source. Instead, we just give aid and expect better behavior. People forget about these nations until they come back to bite us in the asshole, not unlike Afghanistan. Now we are spending billions upon billions there instead of doing it 20 years prior where the amount could've been a lot less money and dead Americans.
The simplest and smartest thing to do is talk to the men that have the most power, irrespective of their religious leanings. You try to get all of them at one table and discuss a powersharing agreement and an integration of their various forces into a national army. A United Nations-led coalition should be a part of the process to train these men and provide additional security.
The point is to have leaders responsible for the actions of the gunmen. Bringing them together will moderate the most extreme forces. The only time isolation should be applied to a particular group is if everyone else agrees to it. This is the first step.
Look, these people aren't savages. There was a power vacuum after the fall of the Soviet Union and you had a breakup of the country. This problem is not unique to Somalia. It happened in Yugoslavia as well, in addition to many other nations. What worked in those countries is sustained action and a determination to separate the reasonable people from the really bad apples. It can be done, but it cannot be done with half-heartedness.
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
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The leaders are responsible for the actions of the gunmen. They are building an economy based on piracy because that is the only way for them to make money.
And what makes you think they will each give up their little kingdoms in order to build a national army??
Do you know anything about human nature at all? When is the last time a tyrant gave up his power willingly and without the interference of some outside military force?
And what makes you think they will each give up their little kingdoms in order to build a national army??
Do you know anything about human nature at all? When is the last time a tyrant gave up his power willingly and without the interference of some outside military force?
They will do it when faced with annihilation or the threat of it. These people simply filled a vacuum. And their current state is not the best they can achieve. Even they know that. A more stable society is better for everyone, including the current gunmen.
And before you go giving advice, I'd remind you that trying to oust them didn't work last time because all we did was allowed Ethiopia to used brute force to force out the islamists and instill a government of our choosing. It didn't work because we did not talk to them.
Like I said, an endeavour like this requires sustained action and a combination of carrots and sticks. Simply killing people and leaving will just create another vacuum.
Send in Barney Frank dressed up like Pippy Long Stockings.
As the pirates are bent over double with laughter, whisk the hostage away using a team of navy seals.
edit: leave Frank there, he will fit in well.
As the pirates are bent over double with laughter, whisk the hostage away using a team of navy seals.
edit: leave Frank there, he will fit in well.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
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Your a bigger fool than we all knew you were if you think that this is at all entirely Obama`s problem.
What part of International issue do you not understand??
Your upset because you think we should already be out of Iraq yet this situation comes up and you think we should be the worlds Policemen.....
There is no pleasing a republican who lost the election to Obama and company!!
hahaaaaa
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
- 3,321
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Again give it up dude.....
This is NOT entirely Obama`s problem.
Do you understand this is the first ship in all the years this has been happenning that was bearing the American flag that was boarded??
The first out of how many that have been pirated ?
So now this is Obama`s problem all of a sudden?
I seriously think not!
This problem arose out of archaic rules governing weapons being on maritime ships....
The rules need changed and I am sorry obama is powerless to singloe handedly change the rules. This is an International maritime issue!!
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
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Really? I must have missed the post in which you detail what military force will be used to threaten them with annihilation.
Perhaps you can re-answer that question or provide me with the day and time of that post so I can read it myself.
Again, I want specifics. Not some pie in the sky "the UN will deal with this" type of post. But a list of what countries are going to provide the military troops needed to carry out the actions that YOU are proposing.
Idiot. Why don't you try looking at my posts in this thread from today. Once you figure it out then we can move on or else the discussing can die here.
While I'm no military strategist, I've already laid out a plan under which the multi-national naval force could effectively deal with this piracy problem. In lieu of a military solution, it would be quite easy to come up with a civil plan that would be equally effective:
Plan #1: Commercial vessels could combine efforts and hire several groups of private security. (What's Blackwater up to these days?) These groups of highly-trained and well-armed security personnel could be added to vessels traveling in pirate infested waters either during a previous port call, or perhaps mid-transit, transferred from some other vessel. Once past the pirate-infested parts of the Indian Ocean, the security detail steps off and is picked up by a commercial vessel heading the opposite direction.
Plan #2: Commercial vessels could travel in tight convoys protected by either armed naval vessels or several vessels of armed private security. Vessels meet up near Mombassa, hook up with their defense vessels, travel by convoy past Somalia where their armed escorts could drop off somewhere near Jeddah. Vessels heading the other direction would merely reverse this process.
Plan #1: Commercial vessels could combine efforts and hire several groups of private security. (What's Blackwater up to these days?) These groups of highly-trained and well-armed security personnel could be added to vessels traveling in pirate infested waters either during a previous port call, or perhaps mid-transit, transferred from some other vessel. Once past the pirate-infested parts of the Indian Ocean, the security detail steps off and is picked up by a commercial vessel heading the opposite direction.
Plan #2: Commercial vessels could travel in tight convoys protected by either armed naval vessels or several vessels of armed private security. Vessels meet up near Mombassa, hook up with their defense vessels, travel by convoy past Somalia where their armed escorts could drop off somewhere near Jeddah. Vessels heading the other direction would merely reverse this process.
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
- 7
- 0
Idiot?? You are the one who is incapable of providing the name of one country that will provide forces to carry out your plan.
Do you not understand that that United Nations and the African Union both have no military forces?
The UN and AU are incapable of doing anything unless someone else provides the military forces. And based on history I have a hard time thinking of countries that are going to volunteer forces to implement your plan.
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
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- 0
Now we are thinking...
I have no idea why #2 is not being implemented. It makes too much sense I guess. I am sure the logistics would be easy though and it would not take too many ships to make it happen.
One convoy a day protected by one cruiser or frigate. Might take 20-30 ships max to make it work.
There have already been countries that have volunteer to help in Somalia. Uganda and Nigeria are the two that come to mind. There were others as well but the main stumbling block has been money and additional (logistical) support from more advanced armies and a reluctance of the muslim nations to get involved.
The UN could do a lot more as well, namely being the umbrella organization to bring all the parties together. However, there has been no political will. Perhaps if Al Qaeda based itself in Somalia and launched attacks in America or Western Europe, the will to fight will be found?
lol. Do you guys have any ideas how many ships travel in these waters? Not to mention their objectives and political affiliations? No one would sign up to this considering their cargo, their destinations, and anything else they don't want other to know about.
For the pirates, this is nothing more than shooting at fish in a barrel.
trenchfoot
Lifer
- Aug 5, 2000
- 15,731
- 8,308
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How about this then:
Generally Speaking, as a framework to start with -
Blockade the Somali coastline by those Nations that either use or benefit from the use of the shipping lanes the Somali's are operating in to prevent further hijacking attempts. Any craft launching from the Somali coastline will only be allowed to navigate no further than two miles out to sea.
Simultaneously, inform those pirates already holding hostages at sea that they will receive amnesty, a reward for each hostage released and safe passage back to Somalia.
Hold firm to this policy and let the Somali's know there will be no other offer tendered, and that any craft violating a two mile limit will be confiscated, and that the use of overwhelming deadly force is authorized should the need arise.
Under UN control, use the blockade to start a dialog with those Somali leaders who have the most influence. The goal being to initially acquire cooperation, coerced or otherwise, and eventually steadily improving relations with other Nations.
Generally Speaking, as a framework to start with -
Blockade the Somali coastline by those Nations that either use or benefit from the use of the shipping lanes the Somali's are operating in to prevent further hijacking attempts. Any craft launching from the Somali coastline will only be allowed to navigate no further than two miles out to sea.
Simultaneously, inform those pirates already holding hostages at sea that they will receive amnesty, a reward for each hostage released and safe passage back to Somalia.
Hold firm to this policy and let the Somali's know there will be no other offer tendered, and that any craft violating a two mile limit will be confiscated, and that the use of overwhelming deadly force is authorized should the need arise.
Under UN control, use the blockade to start a dialog with those Somali leaders who have the most influence. The goal being to initially acquire cooperation, coerced or otherwise, and eventually steadily improving relations with other Nations.
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
- 7
- 0
I am in favor of the blockade idea. Seems pretty easy and will bring a ton of pressure to bear on the pirates as we force all their fishing boats to stay in port.
We will most likely have to provide food aid if we use such a plan since we will be cutting off part of their food supplies.
We will most likely have to provide food aid if we use such a plan since we will be cutting off part of their food supplies.
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
- 7
- 0
Dari... you are a joke...
Let's look at your last two posts
Countries will be unwilling to join together in sea convoys, but they will be willing to put feet on the ground and risk the lives of their soldiers??
Did I get that right?
Let's look at your last two posts
and
Let me try to understand your thinking...
Countries will be unwilling to join together in sea convoys, but they will be willing to put feet on the ground and risk the lives of their soldiers??
Did I get that right?
That means just about EVERY nation on Earth considering these are the primary routes to Europe and America for nations not on the Pacific rim. The smarter idea would be to nip the problem in the bud and make Somalia whole again. Then, and only then, will the Somalis have the power to stop these pirates from operating from their ports.
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