umbrella39
Lifer
- Jun 11, 2004
- 13,816
- 1,126
- 126
Starbuck1975
Lifer
- Jan 6, 2005
- 14,698
- 1,909
- 126
I doubt the soldiers involved attempted to cover up the incident, as they were probably not even aware that his death was fratricide until the completion of the after action report. More likely then not either a PR representative in the Pentagon or the media itself got the "hero" snowball rolling, and it just took off from there...and of course the blatant discrepancy became more pronounced once it was announced that he died of friendly fire.
lol right. But Pat Tillman is DEAD, which renders your entire speculation worthless and trivial.
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
- 86
Yeah. Excellent point. :roll:
Because in WWII we drafted 11,500,000 soldiers and in this war we drafted 0.
yllus
Elite Member & Lifer
- Aug 20, 2000
- 20,577
- 432
- 126
It is regrettable that the deaths of soldiers are used by either pro- or anti-war proponents to further their causes. Ideally, we could simply say, "He died serving his country, may whatever God he believed in watch over his soul," and that would be that. Not going to happen though - but at least it's a big improvement over the linking of the cause to the troops themselves like in the Vietnam era.
It would be nice if either side was required to get permission from the deceased's family before using the death as a springboard into political rhetoric. But the freedom of press and all that probably trump that.
It would be nice if either side was required to get permission from the deceased's family before using the death as a springboard into political rhetoric. But the freedom of press and all that probably trump that.
Doesn't want to be used, yet he's writing in the NRO, using the possibility of his own death for political purposes...
Not to support the effort in Iraq, either, but merely to attack the other side... cast false attributions and conjecture as to motives...
Sweet, with a spin factor 8 out of 10...
Funny how this whole Iraq fiasco plays out. One the one hand, Iraq was puffed up as a serious threat to our own safety and the stability of the region, but the cost of taking action is being downplayed insofar as possible... the dead and mangled whisked home under shrouds of darkness and obfuscation.
In WW2, pictures of our dead strengthened domestic resolve, reinforced the righteousness of our cause. The public readily accepted huge tax increases and rationing to achieve our ends, too... Now, all we get are news blackouts, censorship, and taxcuts for the wealthy... with official pronouncements similar the "Light at the end of the tunnel" routine so familiar to those of us who lived the Vietnam era...
Look to see a lot more faux rightwing outrage and faux patriotism before it's over....
Not to support the effort in Iraq, either, but merely to attack the other side... cast false attributions and conjecture as to motives...
Sweet, with a spin factor 8 out of 10...
Funny how this whole Iraq fiasco plays out. One the one hand, Iraq was puffed up as a serious threat to our own safety and the stability of the region, but the cost of taking action is being downplayed insofar as possible... the dead and mangled whisked home under shrouds of darkness and obfuscation.
In WW2, pictures of our dead strengthened domestic resolve, reinforced the righteousness of our cause. The public readily accepted huge tax increases and rationing to achieve our ends, too... Now, all we get are news blackouts, censorship, and taxcuts for the wealthy... with official pronouncements similar the "Light at the end of the tunnel" routine so familiar to those of us who lived the Vietnam era...
Look to see a lot more faux rightwing outrage and faux patriotism before it's over....
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
- 86
In 1940, 8% of the population of the US supported going to war. Isolationist fervor from the left was in full swing and the largest anti-war movement the US has ever seen, America First, was ruling the scene. We waited, and waited, and waited, not wanting to get involved, thinking that the Atlantic and Pacific were buffers between the US and that nasty problem over in Europe. So we let millions around the world die to protect our own butts.
December 7, 1941 changed everything. Americans now realized they were vulnerable to attack. Public opinion changed swiftly so now we geared up our military-industrial complex and inducted about 17 million men and women into the military, some of which would never see the US again. Could we have intervened previously and cut Hitler off at the knees and alleviated a lot of suffering in the process and saved a lot of lives? Of course we could have. That doesn't mean lives wouldn't have been lost, but far less would have.
Oh, and let's not forget all the conspiracy nuts of the time who, even in the 30s, contended that greedy industrialists and munitions manufacturers had provoked the United States to enter WWI. These nuts led to the Nye Commission who drafted a report called the "Senate Investigation of the Munitions Industries." According to this report, war-mongering profiteers had popularized gruesome tales of Germany atrocities to convince the United States to join the Allies and to invest heavily in war production. This report helped convince many Americans that they should ignore European "propagandists" who claimed to document the brutalities of Hitler, Mussolini, and Hirohito during the 1930s. Doesn't that kind of rhetoric and outrageous paranoia ring familiar when overlayed on the attitude of the left today?
Cue more than fifty years later, we'd almost forgotten the lessons that the isolationists and the "I don't want to get involved" crew should have taught us in WW2. We were already being attacked by an enemy that has similar goals to the Nazis - world domination - but who do it in a much more insispid and stealthy manner. Yet there are still those willing to allow them to creep along until we absolutely had to do something about it, and would lose far more in the process. Instead we are nipping this problem in the bud right now, which is actually something Clinton should have done in the first damn place.
People will die, innocents will be killed, but in the long run this war is necessary to the survivial of our society. Those focused only on the here and now won't ever try to see that or admit to it. But history will prove me right and in the future this war will be looked back upon as a smart move.
Here is another letter from a soldier
Letter From A Soldier
Today I leave for the war
Well it's time to go and do what I have been called to do. Today I head for to the war for the third time and I have some things to say. To me this is a blessing, a calling from God to do what I can to help our brave men and women in uniform. Also this post is for my family as some of them still don't understand why I am on my third trip to Iraq. First of all:
K, you have been the best sister a brother could ever have, you and I had some good fights when we were kids, but you were always there if I truly needed you. We don't see eye to eye on anything political, and you are one of those people calling for our troops to come home now. I love you, but you are wrong in this count, you have three boys and if we don't do this right, it will have to be done again and it could be your boys next time. When I'm in Iraq, I think about my three nephews and how I don't want to see them in DCU's in the next decade, I want to fight our enemies in their country until they either surrender or become so ineffective they aren't a threat to any of us. I don't want my nephews fighing a fight that I couldn't finish, I want them to go to college or play professional soccer, or be beach bums. However,if they choose to become soldiers I would be proud to be in the same chain that links all military personnel past present and future, the chain that holds America together. That being said I would prefer they not have to fight the war I have seen, I would prefer they not lose any friends like I have and I wish that they would never lose their innocence by having to kill another human being. War takes so much out of a person, it changes us in ways that are almost never positive and I would not want your boys to have to go through what I have. I hope one day you understand, that I don't do this for the money, that Bush is not Hitler, and that the people of Iraq deserve as much a chance at a better life as we were given. You and G and the boys will be on my mind the entire time I am in Kirkuk.
Mom, I was the baby of the family and I know you still view me as that little boy that wouldn't eat his green beans and only wanted peanut butter. I am still that little boy inside, but I am so much more now, I am a husband and a veteran, and now a successful man with my own family. I chose to go back to Iraq this time, because I believe in a better world. At 30 I am more of an idealist now than I was at 20, I believe one person can make a difference. I know you will worry about me the entire time I am gone, but you won't tell me how scared you are. I just wanted to say it's ok, I am on the path that brings me the greatest happiness. No matter what happens to me, I am doing what I believe is my destiny, I come from a family of warriors, your family and Dad's were all warriors, it's what they knew. I am a product of their collective service to nation, this isn't about adventure or money or some deathwish, it's about doing the right thing. The men and women and especially the children of Iraq are worth fighting for, when I see them I know that any sacrifice I can make is worth it. What kind of man would I be if I refused to help someone in need? How could I live my life knowing that someone was being tortured and I stood by and sipped my latte and refused to get off my ass? I don't know if you will ever understand what drives me Mom, just being able to help one Iraqi is worth my life. People on this planet are so hell bent on persecuting others, they are so concerned with appearing strong that they prey on the weak and the helpless. Mom, the people of Iraq were helpless and being crushed by a petty clone of Adolf Hitler, now they have hope where before they had none. Iraq is a mess, but it is a mess because freedom is messy, we had to fight a Civil War that nearly killed 500,000 of us just to make all men and women free. Iraq is already having to fight a soul searing conflict with itself to find itself. How could we abandon these people to this chaos? I will continue to support this cause until we win, we lose, or I am knocked out of commission. I cannot call myself a man and abandon the men, women and children of Iraq to brutal butchers, I've made my choice. You'll be in my heart everyday.
Dad, you are my hero, I don't know if I've ever told you that, but you are. You served in Vietnam and came back and made a life for yourself and your family. You did everything you could to provide for K and I, you worked extra hours to make sure we never went without. You never took sick time even though you were out in the elements everyday, you are the definition of what a man is, I hope one day I am half the man that you are. I think you understand what drives me and why I have to keep doing this job. When you were here in Hawaii to visit me and you told me you were proud of me was a moment I'll never forget. I can't let the people of Iraq suffer without doing something, I know I am only one person, but you were only one person and you did so many things in your life. I want to be like you, but I want to do so much more, I know I'm not going to "save the world", but everyday I can do a good deed, whether in Iraq or in Hawaii is a day that I feel like I have done my job as a man and an American. I know you understand!
Jan, my wife, my love, my life, this has got to be the hardest on you. This is the third time I have asked you to take a leap of faith and believe that no harm will come to me in Iraq. Three times I have left you and our puppies behind to pursue some quixotic belief that I can make the world a slightly better place. Three times I have left you behind to pay the bills, and manage the house and so many other things that no one should be forced to do by themselves. I have not been with you for 3 of our seven anniversary's because of my commitment to this. All I can say to you is thank you! I will always love you for your patience and your support of me and my ideals. I know that I make your life hard with these deployments, and for that I am sorry, I wish that it were easier to be away from you,but it's not. In fact, each deployment it gets harder and harder for me to say goodbye, I've lost friends now and had a few close calls myself, but I can't quit doing this. You know why, you more than anyone else understand why. You and I both believe it is our destiny to do whatever we can to make the world better. We are two tiny fish in the enormous universal ocean, but we both know one person can make a difference. When I am in Iraq I know you are in my heart at every moment and that our faith and love protects me. I firmly believe God has a plan for both of us, we are his instruments to do what we can to make the world better. So don't worry about me this time, I am doing what I was meant to do, and I have never been happier. So go and find my molly-molly and give her a scratch behind the ears.
For anyone that reads this; yes I am a 30 year old idealist, at 20 I was a cynic, but now I have a mission in life and a purpose. I found God, but I am far from a religious fanatic, I found a God that inspired me to do good deeds just for the sake of doing good. I can feel his prescence in everything around me, the sunset, the waves crashing on a Hawaiian beach and even in the evening breeze that is laced with plumeria. I would call myself a soldier of God, but not in any way that says he favors me or my cause. I am a soldier of our lord because I choose to serve the side of good, good is opening a door for a stranger, or helping your neighbor empty his trashcan, or going to Iraq because you want to help a people find their voice and feel what we feel when we think of our freedoms. The most fundamental question I ask myself everday is: If I have the chance to do good, even if there is a terrible price to pay, why wouldn't I? I wish more Americans would ask themselves this question, if you can do good, what on earth would stop you from following through?
Finally I just wanted to state one more time, Iraq is the whole bag of marbles, if our ideas win there, then militant islam will wither on the vine and eventually die. If we lose in Iraq, the world will become a much darker place where the evils of the past such as slavery and holy wars will become the norm. I ask the people of America this question; We are the last hope for this planet to realize its potential, the europeans are too weak to do it, what kind of world do we want for our children to live in? I made my choice, and now I leave to do what I believe is my duty. God bless my family, God bless our brave men and women in uniform, God bless all Americans and God bless America.
Caelestis
P.S. Love you my hummingbird
Letter From A Soldier
Today I leave for the war
Well it's time to go and do what I have been called to do. Today I head for to the war for the third time and I have some things to say. To me this is a blessing, a calling from God to do what I can to help our brave men and women in uniform. Also this post is for my family as some of them still don't understand why I am on my third trip to Iraq. First of all:
K, you have been the best sister a brother could ever have, you and I had some good fights when we were kids, but you were always there if I truly needed you. We don't see eye to eye on anything political, and you are one of those people calling for our troops to come home now. I love you, but you are wrong in this count, you have three boys and if we don't do this right, it will have to be done again and it could be your boys next time. When I'm in Iraq, I think about my three nephews and how I don't want to see them in DCU's in the next decade, I want to fight our enemies in their country until they either surrender or become so ineffective they aren't a threat to any of us. I don't want my nephews fighing a fight that I couldn't finish, I want them to go to college or play professional soccer, or be beach bums. However,if they choose to become soldiers I would be proud to be in the same chain that links all military personnel past present and future, the chain that holds America together. That being said I would prefer they not have to fight the war I have seen, I would prefer they not lose any friends like I have and I wish that they would never lose their innocence by having to kill another human being. War takes so much out of a person, it changes us in ways that are almost never positive and I would not want your boys to have to go through what I have. I hope one day you understand, that I don't do this for the money, that Bush is not Hitler, and that the people of Iraq deserve as much a chance at a better life as we were given. You and G and the boys will be on my mind the entire time I am in Kirkuk.
Mom, I was the baby of the family and I know you still view me as that little boy that wouldn't eat his green beans and only wanted peanut butter. I am still that little boy inside, but I am so much more now, I am a husband and a veteran, and now a successful man with my own family. I chose to go back to Iraq this time, because I believe in a better world. At 30 I am more of an idealist now than I was at 20, I believe one person can make a difference. I know you will worry about me the entire time I am gone, but you won't tell me how scared you are. I just wanted to say it's ok, I am on the path that brings me the greatest happiness. No matter what happens to me, I am doing what I believe is my destiny, I come from a family of warriors, your family and Dad's were all warriors, it's what they knew. I am a product of their collective service to nation, this isn't about adventure or money or some deathwish, it's about doing the right thing. The men and women and especially the children of Iraq are worth fighting for, when I see them I know that any sacrifice I can make is worth it. What kind of man would I be if I refused to help someone in need? How could I live my life knowing that someone was being tortured and I stood by and sipped my latte and refused to get off my ass? I don't know if you will ever understand what drives me Mom, just being able to help one Iraqi is worth my life. People on this planet are so hell bent on persecuting others, they are so concerned with appearing strong that they prey on the weak and the helpless. Mom, the people of Iraq were helpless and being crushed by a petty clone of Adolf Hitler, now they have hope where before they had none. Iraq is a mess, but it is a mess because freedom is messy, we had to fight a Civil War that nearly killed 500,000 of us just to make all men and women free. Iraq is already having to fight a soul searing conflict with itself to find itself. How could we abandon these people to this chaos? I will continue to support this cause until we win, we lose, or I am knocked out of commission. I cannot call myself a man and abandon the men, women and children of Iraq to brutal butchers, I've made my choice. You'll be in my heart everyday.
Dad, you are my hero, I don't know if I've ever told you that, but you are. You served in Vietnam and came back and made a life for yourself and your family. You did everything you could to provide for K and I, you worked extra hours to make sure we never went without. You never took sick time even though you were out in the elements everyday, you are the definition of what a man is, I hope one day I am half the man that you are. I think you understand what drives me and why I have to keep doing this job. When you were here in Hawaii to visit me and you told me you were proud of me was a moment I'll never forget. I can't let the people of Iraq suffer without doing something, I know I am only one person, but you were only one person and you did so many things in your life. I want to be like you, but I want to do so much more, I know I'm not going to "save the world", but everyday I can do a good deed, whether in Iraq or in Hawaii is a day that I feel like I have done my job as a man and an American. I know you understand!
Jan, my wife, my love, my life, this has got to be the hardest on you. This is the third time I have asked you to take a leap of faith and believe that no harm will come to me in Iraq. Three times I have left you and our puppies behind to pursue some quixotic belief that I can make the world a slightly better place. Three times I have left you behind to pay the bills, and manage the house and so many other things that no one should be forced to do by themselves. I have not been with you for 3 of our seven anniversary's because of my commitment to this. All I can say to you is thank you! I will always love you for your patience and your support of me and my ideals. I know that I make your life hard with these deployments, and for that I am sorry, I wish that it were easier to be away from you,but it's not. In fact, each deployment it gets harder and harder for me to say goodbye, I've lost friends now and had a few close calls myself, but I can't quit doing this. You know why, you more than anyone else understand why. You and I both believe it is our destiny to do whatever we can to make the world better. We are two tiny fish in the enormous universal ocean, but we both know one person can make a difference. When I am in Iraq I know you are in my heart at every moment and that our faith and love protects me. I firmly believe God has a plan for both of us, we are his instruments to do what we can to make the world better. So don't worry about me this time, I am doing what I was meant to do, and I have never been happier. So go and find my molly-molly and give her a scratch behind the ears.
For anyone that reads this; yes I am a 30 year old idealist, at 20 I was a cynic, but now I have a mission in life and a purpose. I found God, but I am far from a religious fanatic, I found a God that inspired me to do good deeds just for the sake of doing good. I can feel his prescence in everything around me, the sunset, the waves crashing on a Hawaiian beach and even in the evening breeze that is laced with plumeria. I would call myself a soldier of God, but not in any way that says he favors me or my cause. I am a soldier of our lord because I choose to serve the side of good, good is opening a door for a stranger, or helping your neighbor empty his trashcan, or going to Iraq because you want to help a people find their voice and feel what we feel when we think of our freedoms. The most fundamental question I ask myself everday is: If I have the chance to do good, even if there is a terrible price to pay, why wouldn't I? I wish more Americans would ask themselves this question, if you can do good, what on earth would stop you from following through?
Finally I just wanted to state one more time, Iraq is the whole bag of marbles, if our ideas win there, then militant islam will wither on the vine and eventually die. If we lose in Iraq, the world will become a much darker place where the evils of the past such as slavery and holy wars will become the norm. I ask the people of America this question; We are the last hope for this planet to realize its potential, the europeans are too weak to do it, what kind of world do we want for our children to live in? I made my choice, and now I leave to do what I believe is my duty. God bless my family, God bless our brave men and women in uniform, God bless all Americans and God bless America.
Caelestis
P.S. Love you my hummingbird
So, if Roosevelt attacked, let's say, Ecuador instead of Japan/Germany, you would've been ok with that?
I know this thread is on the old side, but I just noticed the post.
Everyone in this country was behind Bush's attack on Afghanistan, Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Everyone. Finishing the job there would've been the smart move, not the war on Iraq.
We have created more problems than we have solved. And no ridiculous comparison to WWII, which I think is insulting to everyone's intelligence, will convince me or millions of others in this country otherwise.
It's about time you faced up to the fact that you are defending a flawed (and that's the nicest term I could come up with) policy in the war on terror. Sometimes to be right, you have to admit when you're wrong and quit trying to convince yourself that your leaders are doing the right thing, when deep down, you know this is a terrible, terrible idea.
Where's the <puke> smiley?
Jeez...these people really need to stop drinking the kool-aid and put the Bible down and start doing some critical thinking. People like that are why America and its policies are more hated now than any point in our history.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter