Sociopath JFKerry: "Israel risks becoming an apartheid state if peace talks fail"

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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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call it anything you like......
have you actually lived in Israel?

no and fuck no--why would I ever do that?
Do you know anything about Israel other than what you have been spoon fed?
what have you been spoon-fed about Israel?

Probably not.....yet Dershowitz is revered and respected in Israel and by quite a few people!
Israel is NOT an apartheid state! Most of you idiots do not even understand the word!

claiming that Dershowitz is praised and respected in Israel to use him as a person capable of making unbiased comments about Israel, is a strategy limited to 3rd grade individuals.



...note that in the comment that I originally made--the one that you are responding to here--I was merely pointing out the blatant problems with you your argument, not the subject matter (I wasn't even presenting my own opinion on the subject).
Now, I know you have a history of reading comprehension problems around here, but please try to keep up.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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The real point here isn't whether Israel is right or wrong, or if one supports them or doesn't, it's that we have a Sec of State who isn't acting like one while involved in difficult, sensitive and important negotiations.

Diplomats should be diplomatic, not editorialize about such subjects while involved in them. It's as though he forgot he was SoS, the top diplomat, and fell back into a Senator role.

Assume his remarks were pointed in the other direct at Palestine. Do you think they would claim that Kerry was biased and refuse to participate with him? I think they would and rightfully so.

The upside is that there wasn't going to be any peace accord anyway. The 'no harm, no foul rule' can be invoked.

Fern

I actually agree with Fern here. It was very undiplomatic of Kerry.


Diplomats are supposed to lie to your face and smile while they're doing it.

BUT-I really do agree with you, Fern. (note that Fern never said that Kerry was wrong) ;)
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,797
572
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Palestinians have a higher birthrate than Israelis eventually Palestinians will outnumber Israelis.

talk about a SHtF situation....

Kerry is being raked over the coals for being blunt. I don't think anything he said was an outright lie.


....
 

squarecut1

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2013
2,230
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Okay, I'll break the silence. Israel is already an apartheid state and has been for decades. Kerry was wrong to state that Israel risks becoming an apartheid state as that has long since come to pass. Kerry should speak truthfully wrt Israel.

I would assume Kerry wants to continue as Sec of State and all the perks that come with it
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,154
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It might be undiplomatic of him, but at this point I can say that the usual stuff has been failing with Israel for decades. I mean I think it is pretty clear that what Kerry said is true.

Israel is basically the definition of an apartheid state at this point. I'm sure that's why Kerry will be forced to apologize for stating this.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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It might be undiplomatic of him, but at this point I can say that the usual stuff has been failing with Israel for decades. I mean I think it is pretty clear that what Kerry said is true.

Israel is basically the definition of an apartheid state at this point. I'm sure that's why Kerry will be forced to apologize for stating this.

Perhaps this is a sign that I really need to reconsider my position, but I agree with eskimospy 100% on this. Maybe Kerry was too blunt for a diplomat, but what he said is undeniably true. Actually, what he said was a much nicer version than the truth, he said it risks becoming and apartheid state -- it obviously already is.
 

berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
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Diplomacy isn't all about flowers and butterflies. Israel needs to hear that even its closest ally is getting tired of them doing horrendous shit then screaming antisemitism any time someone asks them to stop shooting civilians and seizing ships in international waters. The Palestinians need to hear that, too, if they're going to come back to the table with any belief that the US is acting in good faith.

Plus it's true.
 

cabri

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2012
3,616
1
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care to actually explain yourself? nah, just another troll i guess. same goes for you zinfamous.

actual facts do hurt when they are presented in your face.
Your clock starts too recently. The Arab revolt against the Ottoman Empire during WWI would be a better point to begin the discussion of the formation of the Israeli state.

Previously it was just land with no state that people have fought over/taken by force for prestige/religion for the previous 2000+ years.

The Arabs threw off the Ottoman yoke; gained control of the some of the Arabian peninsula and the victors of WWI split the rest of the area.

As always, to the winner goes the spoils. While it may not have been what the Arabs expected when they joined up with the Europeans; that is what they ended up with.

After WWII, the UN decided to create states from the area controlled/administered by the British/French and Russians(Soviets)


The Israeli state did not start until the UN set it up; again by the victors of WWII. Just like the other Arab states that were setup in the ME area.

That Arabs wanted it all; they did not get it all. The Palestinians (whom the other Arabs look down on), have been pawns in the ensuing power struggle as a result of that resentment.
 

HOSED

Senior member
Dec 30, 2013
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http://www.salon.com/2014/04/29/cha...making_resigning_type_statement_about_israel/
Apparently the all knowing Krauthammer (is he related to MC Hammer? ) wants Kerry to resign for exercising his right to free speech. I know he is paralyzed but does he also suffer from brain damage? (When I first saw the video in the link I thought it was an SNL try out video).

Also why is it that nearly all conservative commentators are pro Israel?
 
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cabri

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2012
3,616
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http://www.salon.com/2014/04/29/cha...making_resigning_type_statement_about_israel/
Apparently the all knowing Krauthammer (is he related to MC Hammer? ) wants Kerry to resign for exercising his right to free speech. I know he is paralyzed but does he also suffer from brain damage? (When I first saw the video in the link I thought it was an SNL try out video).

Also why is it that nearly all conservative commentators are pro Israel?
Many liberals have been convinced by the Arab PR of the Palestinians being the underdog.
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
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What a vapid and useless post:
Many liberals have been convinced by the Arab PR of the Palestinians being the underdog.
Quite some spin you've got there.

The reality is of Israeli occupation and colonisation of Palestinian territory is a high crime. Israel is quite alone against the consensus of the international community's condemnation.

You see, cabri, those without a sense of accurate and honest pereception often toss out silly terms such as liberal in a very stupid attempt of ad hominem attacks against those who are far more versed, aware, and can support their stance.

To present an easy example of just how stupid your post is far tarnishing those dirty liberals for being swindled by PR against Israel, here's the stance of Israel's most ardent and vocal supporters, the Conservative government of Canada under Stephen Harper:

Foreign Affairs

Status of Jerusalem

Canada considers the status of Jerusalem can be resolved only as part of a general settlement of the Palestinian-Israeli dispute. Canada does not recognize Israel's unilateral annexation of East Jerusalem.

Occupied Territories and Settlements

Canada does not recognize permanent Israeli control over territories occupied in 1967 (the Golan Heights, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip). The Fourth Geneva Convention applies in the occupied territories and establishes Israel's obligations as an occupying power, in particular with respect to the humane treatment of the inhabitants of the occupied territories. As referred to in UN Security Council Resolutions 446 and 465, Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The settlements also constitute a serious obstacle to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace.

Canada believes that both Israel and the Palestinian Authority must fully respect international human rights and humanitarian law which is key to ensuring the protection of civilians, and can contribute to the creation of a climate conducive to achieving a just, lasting and comprehensive peace settlement.

The Barrier

Canada recognizes Israel's right to protect its citizens from terrorist attacks, including through the restriction of access to its territory, and by building a barrier on its own territory for security purposes. However, Canada opposes Israel's construction of the barrier inside the West Bank and East Jerusalem which are occupied territories. This construction is contrary to international law under the Fourth Geneva Convention. Canada not only opposes Israel's construction of a barrier extending into the occupied territories, but also expropriations and the demolition of houses and economic infrastructure carried out for this purpose.
Even Canada, fairly alone as Israeli's most vocal ally and supporter, is quite clear upon the record of Israeli international crimes. As categorised above, perfectly jive with Kerry's categorisation of Apartheid.

My previous post explicitly outlines what the Crime of Apartheid is. Israel is guilty. Israel is quite alone in defiance and justification for its enacted policy of lebensraum,
"Suddenly we are short of space here in Israel, which has become full to capacity and needs lebensraum. Every cultured person knows that this is a despicable German concept, banned from use because of the associations it brings up. Still, people are starting to use it, if not outright then with a clear implication: We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country."


Again, Apartheid:
International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid, G.A. res. 3068 (XXVIII)), 28 U.N. GAOR Supp. (No. 30) at 75, U.N. Doc. A/9030 (1974), 1015 U.N.T.S. 243, entered into force July 18, 1976.


Considering the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples, in which the General Assembly stated that the process of liberation is irresistible and irreversible and that, in the interests of human dignity, progress and justice, an end must be put to colonialism and all practices of segregation and discrimination associated therewith,

Observing that, in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, certain acts which may also be qualified as acts of apartheid constitute a crime under international law,

Observing
that, in the Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory Limitations to War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity, "inhuman acts resulting from the policy of apartheid" are qualified as crimes against humanity, Observing that the General Assembly of the United Nations has adopted a number of resolutions in which the policies and practices of apartheid are condemned as a crime against humanity,

...

Article II
For the purpose of the present Convention, the term "the crime of
apartheid", which shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practised in southern Africa, shall apply to the following inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them:

(a) Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person:

..

(iii) By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment of the members of a racial group or groups;

(b) Deliberate imposition on a racial group or groups of living conditions calculated to cause its or their physical destruction in whole or in part;

(c) Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognized trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association;

...

d) Any measures including legislative measures, designed to divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members thereof;

..

(f) Persecution of organizations and persons, by depriving them of fundamental rights and freedoms, because they oppose apartheid.
 
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Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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I love how much shit John Kerry is getting for saying the thing that is undeniably true.

Whether true or not it was totally undiplomatic of him to say such a thing. You must consider the role that he is supposed to be performing.

You just hate it and don't like to recognize, or acknowledge, when someone in the Obama admin screws up.

It might be undiplomatic of him, but at this point I can say that the usual stuff has been failing with Israel for decades. I mean I think it is pretty clear that what Kerry said is true.

Israel is basically the definition of an apartheid state at this point. I'm sure that's why Kerry will be forced to apologize for stating this.

Yes, it's clear that the "usual stuff" has been failing for a long time. But you cannot seriously believe this is correct/new path to proceed down.

Fern
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I have but one comment for this thread: I cannot believe that "Sociopath JFKerry" has stood as a thread title for two days. I can't stand the guy, but I highly doubt he's a sociopath.
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
1,338
5
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Whether true or not it was totally undiplomatic of him to say such a thing. You must consider the role that he is supposed to be performing.
It depends. Extra pressure is sometimes deemed beneficial.

During the last US election, Bibi was hardly diplomatic with his interference and condemnation of the re-elected US president..

Though, in this case I think some cool was lost in response to non-publicised direct conversations with the US State Department's opposites in Israel. The Israeli government are likely quite at a loss and upon the verge of panicking at the realisation of no longer containing the Palestinians. Kerry and/or his staff heard quite a few unruly snipes from Israel and responded as they truly see the situation to be. With a return (though likely unstable) to a unity government with Gaza and the West Bank, plus moves towards indicting Israel under international law, it's a very realistic stance of Israel becoming a more openly stated international pariah -- as South Africa became. The authors and actors implementing expansionist militant Israeli Zionism are in fear -- justly so.

The propaganda of the anti-Semitic card against valid legal critiques or the necessity of occupation and settlements for self-justified Israeli security are becoming more and more perceived as vapid bluster. Israel is the party in control. Israel is colonising and displacing based upon ethnic preference. The Crime of Apartheid is present and recognised, with the public relations, diplomatic, and legal blowback will return Israel a heavy price.

The extra-jurisdictional occupation, colonisation and the ethnic displacement of the native population in favour of their own is an untenable long-term policy.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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Whether true or not it was totally undiplomatic of him to say such a thing. You must consider the role that he is supposed to be performing.

So, uhh, he should just pull a Cheney, shill for the Israelis? Never call them on their game, never point out that they're taking advantage of us by not acting in good faith?

What few understand is that the status quo with additional expropriations by Israel is the Netanyahu govt's definition of the peace they're willing to offer. Perpetual occupation is entirely acceptable to them.
 

cabri

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2012
3,616
1
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So, uhh, he should just pull a Cheney, shill for the Israelis? Never call them on their game, never point out that they're taking advantage of us by not acting in good faith?

What few understand is that the status quo with additional expropriations by Israel is the Netanyahu govt's definition of the peace they're willing to offer. Perpetual occupation is entirely acceptable to them.

http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-wont-recognise-israel-accept-quartet-terms-133913126.html

Hamas won't recognise Israel, accept Quartet terms

Gaza City (Palestinian Territories) (AFP) - Hamas will never recognise Israel and will not accept the conditions laid out by the Middle East peacemaking Quartet, according to the Islamist movement's deputy leader.
Speaking late on Saturday, Mussa Abu Marzuq said Hamas, which recently signed a reconciliation deal with the Western-backed Palestinian leadership in the occupied West Bank, would never agree to recognise Israel.

Recognising Israel is one of the key conditions laid out in the 2003 peacemaking roadmap of the Middle East Quartet, which brings together the United Nations, the European Union, the United States and Russia.
The other two key demands are a renunciation of violence and acceptance of all prior agreements with Israel.
Abbas, who is to head the new government, to consist of political independents, has insisted it will abide by all three principles.

But Abu Marzuq said Hamas would never accept the Quartet's conditions.
Hamas is part of the Palestinian government and they refuse.

Three legged stool and one leg is pulled away, the stool will topple, no matter what the other two legs try to do.

Until Hamas is gone they are preventing the Palestinians from moving forward.
Hamas actions end up benefiting Israel