Socially Conservative Left Wing

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Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,764
347
126
Most liberals I know are fairly conservative in their own lives. They don't go around getting high, pregnant, divorcing, and aborting fetuses all around. They get educated, marry, have kids, raise them well. They just don't believe in legislating morality and telling other people how to live their lives.
It's that last part that makes them the opposite of what I'm talking about.

The "authoritarian left" does want to legislate morality - not that extending giving the right to marry to gays is legislating morality, nor is anti-discrimination laws.

But rather working to destroy people that do not pass specific ideological tests. It's much like relegious "law of God", a defacto truth one must live under even if it is not the legitimate law of the land; else one suffer grievous economic or social harm.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
62,740
18,909
136
It's that last part that makes them the opposite of what I'm talking about.

The "authoritarian left" does want to legislate morality - not that extending giving the right to marry to gays is legislating morality, nor is anti-discrimination laws.

But rather working to destroy people that do not pass specific ideological tests. It's much like relegious "law of God", a defacto truth one must live under even if it is not the legitimate law of the land; else one suffer grievous economic or social harm.
What morality do the ones you're talking about want to legislate?
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
Posts proclaiming the superior thinking of modern man, as if we have escaped the human condition by knowing better, are hilarious to me.

If we spent equal time reading the words of those that came before us as we do the Washington Post, CNN, Breitbart (etc.), we would be dumbstruck by how much we have regressed.

Not a true comparison. The "words of those that came before us" were generally the words of intellectual and philosophical giants. We live in a world where the words of any random idiot are published widely, there is a cacophony of noise that surrounds the signal. The signal is still there if you look for it, most us appear to like the noise better.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,736
6,759
126
Assuming absolutely basic facts and notions about standard of living and such, it's completely uncontroversial that backwardness is disadvantageous and therefore negative. I mean, not even conservatives want to live without all the modern conveniences & benefits which resulted from the smart people figuring new things out using enlightenment virtues like objective reasoning.



We can all see that in a democracy the dummies are sometimes led one way or another. But it's problematic when people with integrity are disinclined to do this aggressively whereas their opposites have no such reluctance.

As an example, for a white person without much personal merit, there's a comparable benefit to either getting ahead via government handouts, or subjugating some "lesser" ethnic group, or maybe some long term growth prospect. #1 & 2 have the benefit of being much easier to understand and implement, and also tend to be favored by said less savory advocates. This is just the reality of things, to be understood before proposing and evaluating solutions.
You don't seem to use the word reality in a real way. By your usage one could say that hospitals are full of sick people and that's what you should consider when thinking about them. Your thinking gets frozen at a superficial level You assume endless givens as if they had no source or cause that demand nuanced parsing. It's a very conservative way of thinking, like saying the law is the law is the law when reality demands an understanding of its spirit, In the process you spread a lot of fud.

As for the authoritarian left not being a part of the liberal left it is by definition. And as for whatever concept you imagine you are rejecting regarding feelings of worthlessness explaining a mass of human behavior, I don't know what it is but it has noting to do with what I said. Remember, you are arguing with words from your head, rationalizing and spinning theories whereas I know what I am talking about from experiences you've not had.

It didn't take DC long to spot you either, seems to me. Ask yourself what you would feel if you were to discover you are what you criticize. If you hate what you see out there how do you suppose you will accept such truth about yourself. If you want to punish them, what should be done with you.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
Most liberals I know are fairly conservative in their own lives. They don't go around getting high, pregnant, divorcing, and aborting fetuses all around. They get educated, marry, have kids, raise them well. They just don't believe in legislating morality and telling other people how to live their lives.

Yeah, for a lot of them it is about virtue signaling, finding some way to make themselves interesting and edgy and some such.

Social conservatives are actually concerned about the outcomes of the poor and believe that words matter, cultural messages matter, culture matters. For liberals it is all about their own circle, being perceived as tolerant, their own feelings of goodness.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
62,740
18,909
136
Yeah, for a lot of them it is about virtue signaling, finding some way to make themselves interesting and edgy and some such.

Social conservatives are actually concerned about the outcomes of the poor and believe that words matter, cultural messages matter, culture matters. For liberals it is all about their own circle, being perceived as tolerant, their own feelings of goodness.
Yeah, right.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
On a serious note, liberals seem to think that everyone has the same solid upbringing as they do. They never seem to notice how social pathologies get passed on to children and that these cultural pathologies hamper their success in life. It is a statement of their own Christian virtues that they want to appear accepting and welcoming of difference. Ultimately, they are fine. They are just visiting.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
62,740
18,909
136
On a serious note, liberals seem to think that everyone has the same solid upbringing as they do. They never seem to notice how social pathologies get passed on to children and that these cultural pathologies hamper their success in life. It is a statement of their own Christian virtues that they want to appear accepting and welcoming of difference. Ultimately, they are fine. They are just visiting.
Got any more sweet, sweet nonsensical statements to spew on us?
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,764
347
126

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
62,740
18,909
136
I defined what I meant as "working to destroy people that do not pass specific ideological tests."

This Nobel laureate was fired for an inside homage to his wife, while also making fun of the sexism in science: he said "women don't belong in the lab, they steal our hears!"

Thisnis just one of many examples.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...-tim-hunt-resigns-trouble-with-girls-comments
Ah, so you did not actually mean "legislate", hence my confusion. Given that we're in P&N, you'll forgive me if I assume you're referring to actual legislation when you use that word.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,764
347
126
Ah, so you did not actually mean "legislate", hence my confusion. Given that we're in P&N, you'll forgive me if I assume you're referring to actual legislation when you use that word.
I'm getting at the real meaning of legitimate power - the ability to coerce people.

And the authoritarians on both sides do.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
86
Posts proclaiming the superior thinking of modern man, as if we have escaped the human condition by knowing better, are hilarious to me.

If we spent equal time reading the words of those that came before us as we do the Washington Post, CNN, Breitbart (etc.), we would be dumbstruck by how much we have regressed.

The correct answer was already mentioned in bshole's reply, that you're not comparing like to like. There's simply no comparison between the average thinker today and yesteryear, nevermind the cutting edge of knowledge and reasoning.

You don't seem to use the word reality in a real way. By your usage one could say that hospitals are full of sick people and that's what you should consider when thinking about them. Your thinking gets frozen at a superficial level You assume endless givens as if they had no source or cause that demand nuanced parsing. It's a very conservative way of thinking, like saying the law is the law is the law when reality demands an understanding of its spirit, In the process you spread a lot of fud.

As for the authoritarian left not being a part of the liberal left it is by definition. And as for whatever concept you imagine you are rejecting regarding feelings of worthlessness explaining a mass of human behavior, I don't know what it is but it has noting to do with what I said. Remember, you are arguing with words from your head, rationalizing and spinning theories whereas I know what I am talking about from experiences you've not had.

It didn't take DC long to spot you either, seems to me. Ask yourself what you would feel if you were to discover you are what you criticize. If you hate what you see out there how do you suppose you will accept such truth about yourself. If you want to punish them, what should be done with you.

Consider what superficial means here. I would think what people say are more superficial than what they do. For example people who claim to be liberal but have strong authoritarian tendencies, which you rather superficially consider to be liberal. Or people like desura who pretend to care about lower status people but adhere to traditions which not only don't but can be expected to be dishonest about such matters, which we see again and again with their policies towards them.

Empirical observation of actions and reasoning about them directly is a rather western liberal enlightenment attribute, rather the opposite of conservatism which you claim. On the other hand, there's the more archaic (human instinctive) tradition of rhetorical reasoning, which is comparatively free from observable facts, and you can see many conservatives here doing this.

As an example, you extrapolate from some experience you had to argue that literally all of human experience is distilled down to that with a lot of words but no observational evidence. While it's correct that personal insecurity resolved by social acceptance is an attribute beneficial to the group cohesion we see, it's but one phenomenon contending among many. There are plenty of "everything is really this one thing" hypothesis proposed in all sorts of endeavors, and they invariably fail for anything complex like humans. Or otherwise emulating a human would be far easier than it has turned out.

DC is just doing the typical BothSides equivalency, eg liberals are the Real racists, Real low iq dummies, or Real conservatives, etc. It's readily observed to be complete nonsense trite faux-intellectualism, one of those rhetorical arguments which you claim to not care for.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
86
Yeah, for a lot of them it is about virtue signaling, finding some way to make themselves interesting and edgy and some such.

Social conservatives are actually concerned about the outcomes of the poor and believe that words matter, cultural messages matter, culture matters. For liberals it is all about their own circle, being perceived as tolerant, their own feelings of goodness.

Basically this comes down to "liberals aren't tolerant because they're not tolerant of bigots like us". This is a good example of said rhetorical arguments typical of conservatism.

On a serious note, liberals seem to think that everyone has the same solid upbringing as they do. They never seem to notice how social pathologies get passed on to children and that these cultural pathologies hamper their success in life. It is a statement of their own Christian virtues that they want to appear accepting and welcoming of difference. Ultimately, they are fine. They are just visiting.

Christ was quite liberal for his day, which can't be said for many of his followers. In the best case they're stuck in 2k year old thinking, but really a great mass of them are the people Christ would use as a cautionary tale.

I'm getting at the real meaning of legitimate power - the ability to coerce people.

And the authoritarians on both sides do.

Yeah I'm sure pointing out backwards thinkers is the same thing as acting on backwards thinking.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,026
2,879
136
Not a true comparison. The "words of those that came before us" were generally the words of intellectual and philosophical giants. We live in a world where the words of any random idiot are published widely, there is a cacophony of noise that surrounds the signal. The signal is still there if you look for it, most us appear to like the noise better.

I'm not sure if I would know the signal if I saw it, but I'm happy to be proven wrong if you point me in that direction.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
86
I'm not sure if I would know the signal if I saw it, but I'm happy to be proven wrong if you point me in that direction.

Look at any number of contemporary academic papers, they are the cutting edge. Most these social matters are settled issues intellectually speaking, we're just looking at a bunch of laggards playing out their namesake.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,736
6,759
126
The correct answer was already mentioned in bshole's reply, that you're not comparing like to like. There's simply no comparison between the average thinker today and yesteryear, nevermind the cutting edge of knowledge and reasoning.



Consider what superficial means here. I would think what people say are more superficial than what they do. For example people who claim to be liberal but have strong authoritarian tendencies, which you rather superficially consider to be liberal. Or people like desura who pretend to care about lower status people but adhere to traditions which not only don't but can be expected to be dishonest about such matters, which we see again and again with their policies towards them.

Empirical observation of actions and reasoning about them directly is a rather western liberal enlightenment attribute, rather the opposite of conservatism which you claim. On the other hand, there's the more archaic (human instinctive) tradition of rhetorical reasoning, which is comparatively free from observable facts, and you can see many conservatives here doing this.

As an example, you extrapolate from some experience you had to argue that literally all of human experience is distilled down to that with a lot of words but no observational evidence. While it's correct that personal insecurity resolved by social acceptance is an attribute beneficial to the group cohesion we see, it's but one phenomenon contending among many. There are plenty of "everything is really this one thing" hypothesis proposed in all sorts of endeavors, and they invariably fail for anything complex like humans. Or otherwise emulating a human would be far easier than it has turned out.

DC is just doing the typical BothSides equivalency, eg liberals are the Real racists, Real low iq dummies, or Real conservatives, etc. It's readily observed to be complete nonsense trite faux-intellectualism, one of those rhetorical arguments which you claim to not care for.
You forgot what I said:
Remember, you are arguing with words from your head, rationalizing and spinning theories whereas I know what I am talking about from experiences you've not had.
You can't put an old head on young shoulders nor can you tell people anything if they do not have the grounding to comprehend it. For these reasons we have guilds and apprenticeships, etc. There is no point in my truing to pour new tea in your full tea cup. You foolishly, and if I may say, egotistically announce how you have DC pegged as one who seeks to equate the left with the right when, if you read his post and accept it as truthful, he started the thread with an question in mind. He was not motivated to identify the left as authoritarian as the right, but was questioning his dawning awareness that something like that was going on. He clearly stated that this was counter to what he grew up believing. In short, unlike you, he has the kind of personal humility required to learn against the grain, and to acquire insight through self questioning.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,764
347
126
DC is just doing the typical BothSides equivalency, eg liberals are the Real racists, Real low iq dummies, or Real conservatives, etc. It's readily observed to be complete nonsense trite faux-intellectualism, one of those rhetorical arguments which you claim to not care for.
My God man, I mean, clearly, this Trump fellow is a disaster, a total, unmitigated disaster, and the Neanderthal mindset he brings is a danger to society itself, no question.

And too, I am not making this simple, reductionist, "oh this side is just as bad, look at the hypocrites, look at how they do what they accuse the other side of" and so on..

No. What I am saying, and I let me be precise here, is that we should not be naive, we should not delude ourselves into thinking, oh just because the monster of the other side is a monster, and of that there is no doubt, that we ourselves are immune from monstrous behavior.

Here, and this is my assumption, I appeal to Hegel. Who is not this simple, as you know, you have the thesis, and it's opposite, and then you find a way to rise above them both, and there you go you have a synthesis and a solution: NO. I am saying that it precisely in NOT having the characteristics of the monster of the other side that, as we fall away into having any of those characteristics, we can look back to see that we immediately obtain them. And, in having them, a longing to return to where we do not have them. Now I am making a very particular point, so let me say it yet in another way.

There is no reason to think hitting a bully to defend ourselves is a bad thing, yes? We champion those who stick up for the little guy, and so on, but it is in that act, in the act of hitting the bully, that we fall away from our status as the repressed other so worthy of societal mourning. This, I claim, was the great insight of Gandhi and King; it is not the passiveness to gain, but the juxtaposition against the authoritarian alternative, that reveals the greater truth of, and I do not say passive here, resistance instead of violence. Or I will give you a story of my own upbringing, to perhaps help you grasp what I am now getting at, which I admit, was not what I was getting at when the thread started, so you will forgive me if I have learned from my interactions.

This, I say, reminds me of my time as a child growing up in a drug addicted house hold, who seeing the choice of Christianity as an alternative to a fallen world, a world filled with alcohol, drugs, abuse, hate and so on and so on. It was in this context I was drawn into the love of Christ as the active resistance against the evil world I seemed to have been born into. It is only later, as I noticed the bullying, the attacking, the authoritarian coercion of the Christian right that I realized my path forward. This was from a mature love, a realization that Christ is, for me, a means by which to express the need for, and desire to, love that is deeper than the fiction of my identity.

So I was surprised, and wanted to confirm or have denied, when I started to think that I was noticing this kind of bullying and authoritarianism on the left in some few places. I do not draw some dogmatic equivalence, or to say "both sides" or present the hate on the right as a foil against the left, My God Man, think of the human, and economic, and civil rights implications to make such a rancid argument. No, I am saying, that this is a kind of awakening for myself, a realization that, as far to the left as I, a self proclaimed socialist had run: there was a bridge too far, still even today in our liberal politics.

To say that there is a bridge too far on either side is, I submit, not to say that both bridges are equally well traveled or of equal distance away from enabling the good life. And in fact, for a mature sense, perhaps even a love, of my socialistic identity, I must embrace that I am to be perpetually the other; for I love Jesus, yes in a mature way, perhaps atheisticly, in a way that certainly my family members would call Atheistic. But so too, in a way that is completely true as far as can can fathom myself. I know this, not because it is a synthesis of past experience, but because the moment I get past that love, I get to self that, not that I fear, like some coward child beaten into not speaking a dirty word, but instead of a man who longs for home. Sad to be away.

So too was I sad when I noticed this authoritarianism on the left and a moment of falling in with it's sway. And as I return back to a cognitively aware, caring, and thoughtful socialistic left that does not seek or support or justify violence, I notice that same warmth of propriety return. It is for this reason, yes, I have greater sympathy for the people who, while factually wrong in a trivial way, are also right in the deeper sense to say no burden is too much to save a life and so on.

I hope now, it is, that you understand, and you take my meaning. I do not wish to confront you with this chatter about how each side is equal and so on, but to have an encounter. And truly, along this path, people in this very thread, have helped me along. So I thank them, and I thank you, for reflecting on what I have to say and my journey such as it is so far.
 
Last edited:

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
86
You forgot what I said:
Remember, you are arguing with words from your head, rationalizing and spinning theories whereas I know what I am talking about from experiences you've not had.
You can't put an old head on young shoulders nor can you tell people anything if they do not have the grounding to comprehend it. For these reasons we have guilds and apprenticeships, etc. There is no point in my truing to pour new tea in your full tea cup. You foolishly, and if I may say, egotistically announce how you have DC pegged as one who seeks to equate the left with the right when, if you read his post and accept it as truthful, he started the thread with an question in mind. He was not motivated to identify the left as authoritarian as the right, but was questioning his dawning awareness that something like that was going on. He clearly stated that this was counter to what he grew up believing. In short, unlike you, he has the kind of personal humility required to learn against the grain, and to acquire insight through self questioning.

The answer to the question, or at least an understanding of the situation, is relatively simple as mentioned. Consider the fact that whatever ethnics system a child is raised in is relatively arbitrary. For example, a person with authoritarian tendencies can very much be taught to believe in enlightenment ethics, same as they can be taught to believe in jesus. The problem is then one of classification, and not rhetoric. Namely, do we classify such a person to be liberal, even if they do not espouse liberal tendencies outside of what's recited from rote memorization/habit. That is certainly increasing true with time as education systems teach more liberalism, both in the absolute and process sense, such that even the most otherwise conservative/traditionalist might consider various liberal policies as absolute.

You & DC insist they should be classified as liberal, which might be useful for statistical purposes (eg voting), but not from any argument over liberal vs conservative tendencies or what they imply.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
86
My God man, I mean, clearly, this Trump fellow is a disaster, a total, unmitigated disaster, and the Neanderthal mindset he brings is a danger to society itself, no question.

And too, I am not making this simple, reductionist, "oh this side is just as bad, look at the hypocrites, look at how they do what they accuse the other side of" and so on..

No. What I am saying, and I let me be precise here, is that we should not be naive, we should not delude ourselves into thinking, oh just because the monster of the other side is a monster, and of that there is no doubt, that we ourselves are immune from monstrous behavior.

Here, and this is my assumption, I appeal to Hegel. Who is not this simple, as you know, you have the thesis, and it's opposite, and then you find a way to rise above them both, and there you go you have a synthesis and a solution: NO. I am saying that it precisely in NOT having the characteristics of the monster of the other side that, as we fall away into having any of those characteristics, we can look back to see that we immediately obtain them. And, in having them, a longing to return to where we do not have them. Now I am making a very particular point, so let me say it yet in another way.

There is no reason to think hitting a bully to defend ourselves is a bad thing, yes? We champion those who stick up for the little guy, and so on, but it is in that act, in the act of hitting the bully, that we fall away from our status as the repressed other so worthy of societal mourning. This, I claim, was the great insight of Gandhi and King; it is not the passiveness to gain, but the juxtaposition against the authoritarian alternative, that reveals the greater truth of, and I do not say passive here, resistance instead of violence. Or I will give you a story of my own upbringing, to perhaps help you grasp what I am now getting at, which I admit, was not what I was getting at when the thread started, so you will forgive me if I have learned from my interactions.

This, I say, reminds me of my time as a child growing up in a drug addicted house hold, who seeing the choice of Christianity as an alternative to a fallen world, a world filled with alcohol, drugs, abuse, hate and so on and so on. It was in this context I was drawn into the love of Christ as the active resistance against the evil world I seemed to have been born into. It is only later, as I noticed the bullying, the attacking, the authoritarian coercion of the Christian right that I realized my path forward. This was from a mature love, a realization that Christ is, for me, a means by which to express the need for, and desire to, love that is deeper than the fiction of my identity.

So I was surprised, and wanted to confirm or have denied, when I started to think that I was noticing this kind of bullying and authoritarianism on the left in some few places. I do not draw some dogmatic equivalence, or to say "both sides" or present the hate on the right as a foil against the left, My God Man, think of the human, and economic, and civil rights implications to make such a rancid argument. No, I am saying, that this is a kind of awakening for myself, a realization that, as far to the left as I, a self proclaimed socialist had run: there was a bridge too far, still even today in our liberal politics.

To say that there is a bridge too far on either side is, I submit, not to say that both bridges are equally well traveled or of equal distance away from enabling the good life. And in fact, for a mature sense, perhaps even a love, of my socialistic identity, I must embrace that I am to be perpetually the other; for I love Jesus, yes in a mature way, perhaps atheisticly, in a way that certainly my family members would call Atheistic. But so too, in a way that is completely true as far as can can fathom myself. I know this, not because it is a synthesis of past experience, but because the moment I get past that love, I get to self that, not that I fear, like some coward child beaten into not speaking a dirty word, but instead of a man who longs for home. Sad to be away.

So too was I sad when I noticed this authoritarianism on the left and a moment of falling in with it's sway. And as I return back to a cognitively aware, caring, and thoughtful socialistic left that does not seek or support or justify violence, I notice that same warmth of propriety return. It is for this reason, yes, I have greater sympathy for the people who, while factually wrong in a trivial way, are also right in the deeper sense to say no burden is too much to save a life and so on.

I hope now, it is, that you understand, and you take my meaning. I do not wish to confront you with this chatter about how each side is equal and so on, but to have an encounter. And truly, along this path, people in this very thread, have helped me along. So I thank them, and I thank you, for reflecting on what I have to say and my journey such as it is so far.

What you're essentially proposing is that there's some generally optimal solution to dealing with bad behavior, when this is not in evidence. What you're exhibiting with King/Gandhi is just survivorship bias, ie solutions which may work sometimes given circumstances, remembered in large part due to some positive message or whatever; esp considering they are already proposed as exceptional cases. Now it might be that backwardness can be killed with kindness, but seems even the patience & commitment of god/jesus is questionable when it comes to turning the other cheek. As a practical observation, notice that liberals here often exhibit incredible patience explaining the factual reasoning for various things, to ~zero avail with the common blustering buckshit types. Sometimes dealing with such problems demand some understanding of game theory, namely dealing with perverse/selfish strategy (eg always defect) in prisoner's dilemma. Given events as of late, remaining polite to the kind of people who'd hand the country to Trump types is simply stupid.

Of course authoritarians who just happen to espouse leftists policy can be problematic. Just look at all the (peasant) revolutions by people who are hardly students of the enlightenment. But consider the post just above and how we need to define things meaningfully for this discussion. Is "liberalism" as an ideal the problem or some people who happen to learn those ideals? Speaking of Hegelian history, I've mentioned a couple times as of late it's popularly misunderstood as a todo list, like we should overthrow capitalism/abrahamic-religion tomorrow for shits and giggles, when the right way of putting horse and cart here is to say that certain systems are a natural consequence of human development. That's why Marx talks of importance of class conscience, which evidently relatively few americans have, and as a consequences there will be no socialist/communist outcome. Same for religion, etc.

Also some explanation of notions I sometimes propose: of course not every last conservative is the vilest human to ever exist, and that some continuum exists for stubborn/dumb traditionalists unable to process modernity. However, it's very much worth viewing and reasoning about behavior as objective phenomena, from which it can be readily seen that they were always shits historical speaking, there's no exception as of late. It's simply the case that liberals in this country became less traditionalist/shitty over some decades thus the greater contrast we see today.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,764
347
126
What you're essentially proposing is that there's some generally optimal solution to dealing with bad behavior, when this is not in evidence. What you're exhibiting with King/Gandhi is just survivorship bias, ie solutions which may work sometimes given circumstances, remembered in large part due to some positive message or whatever; esp considering they are already proposed as exceptional cases. Now it might be that backwardness can be killed with kindness, but seems even the patience & commitment of god/jesus is questionable when it comes to turning the other cheek. As a practical observation, notice that liberals here often exhibit incredible patience explaining the factual reasoning for various things, to ~zero avail with the common blustering buckshit types. Sometimes dealing with such problems demand some understanding of game theory, namely dealing with perverse/selfish strategy (eg always defect) in prisoner's dilemma. Given events as of late, remaining polite to the kind of people who'd hand the country to Trump types is simply stupid.

Of course authoritarians who just happen to espouse leftists policy can be problematic. Just look at all the (peasant) revolutions by people who are hardly students of the enlightenment. But consider the post just above and how we need to define things meaningfully for this discussion. Is "liberalism" as an ideal the problem or some people who happen to learn those ideals? Speaking of Hegelian history, I've mentioned a couple times as of late it's popularly misunderstood as a todo list, like we should overthrow capitalism/abrahamic-religion tomorrow for shits and giggles, when the right way of putting horse and cart here is to say that certain systems are a natural consequence of human development. That's why Marx talks of importance of class conscience, which evidently relatively few americans have, and as a consequences there will be no socialist/communist outcome. Same for religion, etc.

Also some explanation of notions I sometimes propose: of course not every last conservative is the vilest human to ever exist, and that some continuum exists for stubborn/dumb traditionalists unable to process modernity. However, it's very much worth viewing and reasoning about behavior as objective phenomena, from which it can be readily seen that they were always shits historical speaking, there's no exception as of late. It's simply the case that liberals in this country became less traditionalist/shitty over some decades thus the greater contrast we see today.
I see where you are coming from. Also, you are quite right about Marx.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Yeah, for a lot of them it is about virtue signaling, finding some way to make themselves interesting and edgy and some such.

Social conservatives are actually concerned about the outcomes of the poor and believe that words matter, cultural messages matter, culture matters. For liberals it is all about their own circle, being perceived as tolerant, their own feelings of goodness.

Outcomes matter, and outcomes of conservative policies are pretty miserable. Cultural messages matter?
map_conservative_regional_divorce.jpg

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