Socially Conservative Left Wing

[Dr. Zaus]

i think I figured out why my side (progressives) fail when they should win - we are backed by people who are socially conservative.

These are people that demand ethics and social behavior be simple.

Examples of "no" to questions that are more complex:

Is it ever a good idea to make any kind of abortion illegal?

Is it ever appropriate to say the N word?

Should we ever fail to spend as much as is needed to try to save a life?

Are there any good reasons to use nuclear power?

These sound like real questions, they are not, they are sociological flags - conservative stances which make no sense (all all-statements are wrong) but which one is required to believe.

 

[Jaskalas]

i think I figured out why my side (progressives) fail when they should win - we are backed by people who are socially conservative.

And as of 2016 those folks are focused entirely on group purity and attacking the "enemy" rather than how this country can be transformed in a sorely needed economic new deal. There are divisive languages being tossed around left and right, but few voices on how to help our fellow Americans improve their lives. Suppose they think they'll inspire hope and dreams in people once the war is "won".

IMO, all they need to do to "win" is remember 2008 and inspire people to hope again.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

And as of 2016 those folks are focused entirely on group purity and attacking the "enemy" rather than how this country can be transformed in a sorely needed economic new deal. There are divisive languages being tossed around left and right, but few voices on how to help our fellow Americans improve their lives. Suppose they think they'll inspire hope and dreams in people once the war is "won".

IMO, all they need to do to "win" is remember 2008 and inspire people to hope again.

MLK>>BLM ?

 

[Moonbeam]

If one were required to believe those things on could never say no, no? But looking at the spirit rather than the letter, I would answer no to all of them.

 

[shortylickens]

Moonie?
MOONIE!

I have no idea what you are saying, bro.
You sometimes dont make sense to me.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

i think I figured out why my side (progressives) fail when they should win - we are backed by people who are socially conservative.

Are you a time-travelling transplant from the Prohibition Era? I'm fairly certain this isn't an accurate statement today.

 

[Jhhnn]

If the answer is Yes, how is that progressive?

 

[imported_tajmahal]

i think I figured out why my side (progressives) fail when they should win - we are backed by people who are socially conservative.

These are people that demand ethics and social behavior be simple.

Examples:

Is it ever a good idea to make any kind of abortion illegal?

Is it ever appropriate to say the N word?

Should we ever fail to spend as much as is needed to try to save a life?

Are there any good reasons to use nuclear power?

These sound like real questions, they are not, they are sociological flags - conservative stances which make no sense (all all-statements are wrong) but which one is required to believe.

1. Yes - Abortion at 9 months or after the fetus is viable.
2. No -
3. Yes - At what point does it become cost prohibitive? $2,000,000.00 a month? $7,000,000.00 a month and a dedicated hospital wing with 50 full time staffers?
4. Yes - It's a cleaner way of making power than coal, as we develop better systems it will make more and more sense.

I'm glad you think you've found definitive answers to those questions though. I hope they work for you.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

1. Yes - Abortion at 9 months or after the fetus is viable.
2. No -
3. Yes - At what point does it become cost prohibitive? $2,000,000.00 a month? $7,000,000.00 a month and a dedicated hospital wing with 50 full time staffers?
4. Yes - It's a cleaner way of making power than coal, as we develop better systems it will make more and more sense.

I'm glad you think you've found definitive answers to those questions though. I hope they work for you.

Actually, that's my point.

I've updated the OP because of confusion.

Can you really not think of any instance where anyone might legitimately use the N word?

 

[bshole]

Can you really not think of any instance where anyone might legitimately use the N word?

My son uses it on his black friends and they use it on him. It is very weird. They are clearly using it as a term of acceptance. I think they shouldn't be using it but I haven't said anything. I am not sure that the younger generation uses it in the same way as my generation. It could have something to do with Rap music which they are all into.

 

[Moonbeam]

Moonie?
MOONIE!

I have no idea what you are saying, bro.
You sometimes dont make sense to me.

Well I have a typo in there. Should have read:
If one were required to believe those things one could never say no, no? But looking at the spirit rather than the letter, I would answer no to all of them. If you came into the thread before DC edited it, it used to read that conservative liberals were required to say yes to all those points. My point was that if it was a real requirement nobody could disagree and I feel no compulsion of that kind because I can answer differently than what was termed a requirement.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Well I have a typo in there. Should have read:
If one were required to believe those things one could never say no, no? But looking at the spirit rather than the letter, I would answer no to all of them. If you came into the thread before DC edited it, it used to read that conservative liberals were required to say yes to all those points. My point was that if it was a real requirement nobody could disagree and I feel no compulsion of that kind because I can answer differently than what was termed a requirement.

Well I have a typo in there. Should have read:
If one were required to believe those things one could never say no, no? But looking at the spirit rather than the letter, I would answer no to all of them. If you came into the thread before DC edited it, it used to read that conservative liberals were required to say yes to all those points. My point was that if it was a real requirement nobody could disagree and I feel no compulsion of that kind because I can answer differently than what was termed a requirement.

What brings this to mind is that in simply explaining that there are very few universals in normative behavior, I was "corrected" and accused of hating women.

It seems there or a hyper orthodox perspective and even pointing to limitations of that orthodox way of thinking comes with the kinds of accusations that could end a career.

 

[Moonbeam]

I have a lot of trouble with absolutes because I was told they absolutely do not exist. It occurred to me also that if nobody ever used the N word very soon nobody would know what the N word is and a word that nobody knows is a word that doesn't exist. This is probasbly why nobody ever says the p word. Are you with me shorty?

 

[Moonbeam]

What brings this to mind is that in simply explaining that there are very few universals in normative behavior, I was "corrected" and accused of hating women.

It seems there or a hyper orthodox perspective and even pointing to limitations of that orthodox way of thinking comes with the kinds of accusations that could end a career.

As you probably know I have an answer to that. People do two things. They identify with their opinions, tie their estimation of the worth of their ego to them while simultaneously hating themselves, the result being that any attack on their opinions translates to them that you and not they are the one who feels they are worthless. I can promise you that people would rather die than face the truth of how they really feel. Fortunately, I don't suffer as intensely as some seem to from this because I'm a worthless nobody.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

As you probably know I have an answer to that. People do two things. They identify with their opinions, tie their estimation of the worth of their ego to them while simultaneously hating themselves, the result being that any attack on their opinions translates to them that you and not they are the one who feels they are worthless. I can promise you that people would rather die than face the truth of how they really feel. Fortunately, I don't suffer as intensely as some seem to from this because I'm a worthless nobody.

So then it's likely that I'm only posting here about these folks I see as 'less than', in the same way as the social conservatives that are conservative, because I myself am struggling with a sense of worthlessness.

Probably a prime motivation for all the egoistic behavior I see all around me; and if I see it everywhere, i'm probably the source.

 

[Jaskalas]

MLK>>BLM ?

Bit sparse on the information there. Am I to reply?
If weighing the two, then obviously the inclusive message is superior. MLK faced a harsher reality and rose a greater man.
BLM? Quite a mess, not sure I'd call it progressive. Don't think that's even the point. It's to address and/or react to a specific ill in society. The rampant crime and violence leading to unequal outcomes. And given it's our society involved, there's guns... and people are dying. It's no easy solution, but MLK had a better answer for it many years ago than our people find for themselves today.

Does your reply somehow tie back to your OP? In what way...
Oh... hope is it? I spoke of that because there's a great deal of partisanship where people are drawing lines. In consequence of the last election I identify more with Progressives than anyone. But those who would think like, and act like, conservative minds would label me their enemy due to argument on various topics. Not the least of which is whether I hate certain people enough to "fit in". There's a litmus test going around to decide whether people are "others", isn't there? Too many, I find, are eager to point fingers. McCarthyism is ridiculed and yet somehow vigorously upheld in equal measure. Not just in passive actions either.

We are living through economic turmoil. Many do not see the poverty in America. But the voters who suffer cried out.
And their desperate action is not met by everyone with gentle resolve. To look at them in pity and aim to heal wounds.
A progressive answer is not held by nearly enough people. If it did, a person like Sanders would be President.

 

[agent00f]

Bit sparse on the information there. Am I to reply?
If weighing the two, then obviously the inclusive message is superior. MLK faced a harsher reality and rose a greater man.
BLM? Quite a mess, not sure I'd call it progressive. Don't think that's even the point. It's to address and/or react to a specific ill in society. The rampant crime and violence leading to unequal outcomes. And given it's our society involved, there's guns... and people are dying. It's no easy solution, but MLK had a better answer for it many years ago than our people find for themselves today.

Does your reply somehow tie back to your OP? In what way...
Oh... hope is it? I spoke of that because there's a great deal of partisanship where people are drawing lines. In consequence of the last election I identify more with Progressives than anyone. But those who would think like, and act like, conservative minds would label me their enemy due to argument on various topics. Not the least of which is whether I hate certain people enough to "fit in". There's a litmus test going around to decide whether people are "others", isn't there? Too many, I find, are eager to point fingers. McCarthyism is ridiculed and yet somehow vigorously upheld in equal measure. Not just in passive actions either.

We are living through economic turmoil. Many do not see the poverty in America. But the voters who suffer cried out.
And their desperate action is not met by everyone with gentle resolve. To look at them in pity and aim to heal wounds.
A progressive answer is not held by nearly enough people. If it did, a person like Sanders would be President.

There's a division in the country because there's an inescapable substantial gap between pre-enlightenment vs modern thinking, that's only ever grown since the 50/60's.

Asking folks living in the 21st century to somehow accommodate the ignorant & worthless past is by definition backwards and an insult to human accomplishment.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

"There's a litmus test going around to decide whether people are "others", isn't there?"
Yes, precisely my point.


"Rage is about expectations, revolution occurs in a very open society"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByKXcIPi7MI

 

[agent00f]

"There's a litmus test going around to decide whether people are "others", isn't there?"
Yes, precisely my point.


"Rage is about expectations, revolution occurs in a very open society"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByKXcIPi7MI

That guy is rather typical of marxists who put the cart before the horse: https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...ack-intelligence.2499515/page-3#post-38744812. Though in all fairness Marx was guilty of the same in contradiction to his own Hegelian/historical arguments. Or put another way, his economic-history was that socialism then communism was the shape of things to come, which is suppose to be an eventual consequence of human/social development; ie not a system to hammer together next sunday. Suffice to say people haven't exactly developed that far.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

That guy is rather typical of marxists who put the cart before the horse: https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...ack-intelligence.2499515/page-3#post-38744812. Though in all fairness Marx was guilty of the same in contradiction to his own Hegelian/historical arguments. Or put another way, his economic-history was that socialism then communism was the shape of things to come, which is suppose to be an eventual consequence of human/social development; ie not a system to hammer together next sunday. Suffice to say people haven't exactly developed that far.

We're close; closer yet still if we stopped pitting segment of the workers against another. But, in my view, such is the cost of social conservatives on both sides. As is clearly perpetuated by "I don't get shot by the cops" status, which also happens to correlate with conservatism of both kinds, as purchasable based on zip code.

 

[agent00f]

We're close; closer yet still if we stopped pitting segment of the workers against another. But, in my view, such is the cost of social conservatives on both sides. As is clearly perpetuated by "I don't get shot by the cops" status, which also happens to correlate with conservatism of both kinds, as purchasable based on zip code.

Maybe it's just me, but I really don't think the "hurr durr, them damn commies" crowd are developed enough to be commies.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

And yet they also won't give up their social security. Even the most regressive populism is hugely socialistic compared to Marx's day.

No, those people who said that thing you just quoted (and who are why I call myself a communist despite dedicating my life to improving business).

But a few generations from now their willingness to let poor people die without medical care, or get shot by the police, or go without free education as needed to contribute to the human project, or spend their time destroying the earth... those will be a s sick and sad as the British murder of Turing for being gay.

But this socially conservative mindset is very dangerous.

 

[agent00f]

And yet they also won't give up their social security. Even the most regressive populism is hugely socialistic compared to Marx's day.

No, those people who said that thing you just quoted (and who are why I call myself a communist despite dedicating my life to improving business).

But a few generations from now their willingness to let poor people die without medical care, or get shot by the police, or go without free education as needed to contribute to the human project, or spend their time destroying the earth... those will be a s sick and sad as the British murder of Turing for being gay.

But this socially conservative mindset is very dangerous.

Keep in mind political correctness and such was designed for said crowd to avoid embarrassing themselves in enlightened company, with a clear benefit to future generation who need not suffer their backward ignorance.

It's simply a reality that certain segments of the population are an anchor dragging their betters down, and the sooner reality is recognized the better for the modern human situation.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Keep in mind political correctness and such was designed for said crowd to avoid embarrassing themselves in enlightened company, with a clear benefit to future generation who need not suffer their backward ignorance.

It's simply a reality that certain segments of the population are an anchor dragging their betters down, and the sooner reality is recognized the better for the modern human situation.

This "betters" are just as backward and stupid in many ways. Diversity helps us see where and fix it.

 

[agent00f]

This "betters" are just as backward and stupid in many ways. Diversity helps us see where and fix it.

Typical BothSides idiocy. https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...rest-to-be-as-degenerate-as-possible.2498580/, https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...endents-wont-bothsides.2499400/#post-38741210

Diversity also doesn't mean purposely mixing in negative traits like backwardness, any more than sticking hardened criminals into refined environments.