So, yet another study showing public education isn't working.

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May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
The problem is that research doesn't support that at all. Once you account for other factors the ONLY significant correlation between schools and achievement of students is the socio-economic status of the students...not the teachers or the school. Throwing money at educating people who can't afford basic life needs is pointless. We need societal change and economic stability/equality. Nothing else will allow educational achievement.
Or maybe some of the poor are poor partly because of their attitude towards education and self improvement in general? Nahhh, we can't lay any of the blame them. It's always somebody elses fault. Poor kids don't fail math because they screw around in class and their parents don't help with their homework. It's because daddy doesn't drive a Benz. Typical victim mentality bullshit.

Not at all. There are certainly people at all economic levels that have bad attitudes. However there are some completely logical observations about why SES is associated with achievement that have nothing to do about attitude. Poor people are less healthy in general in part because they are more stressed, don't eat as well, don't have proper medical coverage, and so on. This lack of overall health and increased stress creates a poor learning (as well as living) environment. People at the middle low to low middle incomes frequently are working multiple jobs to get that money. That means they're not only more stressed, they're not in the home to be there for the kids. It develops the mentality that making money is more important than self-realization and education - which forms a general societal attitude that doesn't reward intelligence and education. Single parents have lower SES than two parent households quite frequently. That equates directly to there being less in home support available, as well as less money to make their lives better. As I already mentioned in a previous post people of means are able to pay for much of their responsibilities to be handled by others (like domestic help) thus allowing for more focus on the kids.

None of this is any kind of normative statement about incomes. It's merely statements of fact which have held up in research and make good logical sense. There are other factors as well. People with bad attitudes will certainly pass those attitudes to their offspring, thus creating an environment of failure. There's no question that this happens as well...but it is NOT the only issue.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: Mardeth
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

I can name dozens or hundreds of instances where the rise of unions ended exploitation, abuse, endangerment, and so on. I personally think that counts for WAY more than making the rich richer.

Nobody is getting rich of K-12 education, except maybe the unions... And when it comes to unions in general, it hinders competitiveness and in todays global world, that is what matters. Like it or not.

Unions used to be great, now their power is abused.

Totally agree...but I also see that government and businesses have grown so powerful that there is little recourse for the common man against them, and next to no voice speaking out for him. Unions may not be great, but they're better than returning to the outright abuses and exploitation of pre-union America. I'd be all for doing away with them if we empower the individual to have the necessary power against those who would abuse and exploit him.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: Isla
Originally posted by: BlancoNino
IMO, we need to dispose of the need for a masters degree at the K-12 level (not all states require this). It simply isn't necessary.

Secondly, teachers need to be held accountable. Don't increase their pay if they aren't performing...and for heavens sake threaten to fire them if they suck (I remember especially in middle school having classes where we sat around and hardly did anything neither did the administration when they were informed of it) and give them an incentive to do better at the same time.

.

Please explain how thinking a MA in Ed isn't necessary and that teacher performance should be a factor at the same time. If I understand your post correctly, you don't think teaching needs any advanced degree but you think teachers should be the best they can be? Because the BEST teachers I know have Master's degrees. In my state, a Master's isn't required, but if you have one, you can be paid an average of 10K more.

There are components to teaching that are very complex, such as the psychology of learning, motivation, and developing curriculum. A BA in education just skims these things. Fortunately, my school district provides continuous training to make sure all teachers have the opportunity to develop their craft.


We also have Pay for Performance in my state. It is somewhat controversial, but in the end I don't think it is a bad thing. At least I get bonuses, which help me pay for all the 'extras' I do for my students.

By the way, I don't have a Master's, but the BA I earned in school was more intensive than a regular education degree. I studied developmental and educational psych. It serves me quite well in the classroom.

In a perfect world every teacher would be required to have a PhD in every subject they taught, and full degrees (not just certification) in Education AND Psychology. I would personally suggest a BS in Psychology (with emphasis on cognitive and developmental), a MA in Education and then on to field work as a pretty good path. Those three things are essential to be the best teacher you can really be. However, that's not going to happen unless you find a way to compensate teachers for those job requirements. Mind you this is for secondary education. Primary teachers are a whole different beast. For them I'd suggest their MS in Psychology becaues so much of early childhood development is psychology, not education based. I would further expand their education degree requirements to be the equivalent of a PhD, but covering all of the subjects taught. Since an elementary teacher generally teaches all subjects they really need much more extensive training than they currently receive.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: jjzelinski
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
When you plot the fall of education scores and the rise of teachers unions you will notice that they are inversely proportional, the more powerful the unions became the lower the scores got.

Can anyone name any instance in which a union came into power and the product of their members actually improved? Unions are really good at raisings costs of their product, but totally worthless at improving quality.

Even if what you said was 100% true, (which it's not) that is specious reasoning. So I checked out SAT scores from 1976 to present. Average verbal score went from 530 down to 508, a 22 point decrease, while math went from 509 to 520, an 11 point increase.

So total we had about a 4% decrease in verbal, and a 2% increase in math scores. I did some simple statistical analysis on those numbers and found that respectively the standard error of those data sets was 7.5% and 8.1%. That means that deviations that small don't even merit the 66% confidence interval and therefore have absolutely zero statistical significance. Meaning...those numbers mean approximately.... nothing. Our test scores in a statistical sense have not budged in more then 30 years.

So please explain to me how these test scores have been dropping and what the teachers did to cause it? Or were you just making things up as usual?


lol, awesome...

As for the purpose of teachers unions? It's to protect our teachers from lazy, resentful, idiotic parents that would blame a teacher for the weather before employing a an iota of constructive and consistent parenting.

This is is just another example of conservatives attacking the "intelligencia". Resentful, ignorant pricks.

Word! People who haven't had to deal with parents in an education environment have no idea how totally worthless so many of them are. Forget better licensing requirements for teachers, how about some license requirements on breeding.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: piasabird
I disagree that teaching is one of the lowest paid professions. However, for the training required to be a teacher which is a Master's Degree in many places it is low on the scale for people with a Master's Degree. Plenty of professions make about what a teacher makes. If you take into account that a teacher does not work 3 months out of the year then that puts things in a different light.

There are some things I dont like about the teaching profession. I do not like how teachers get so many days off during the school year to go to conferences. This is something we need to change. Let them have their confrences in the evening or on the weekends, or during the summer or spring break or something like that.

Again, you fail to understand the concept of hours worked. Teachers put in the same hours in a year as every other profession, they just do it in a shorter period of time. If salary is about an amount paid per hour then look at it that way. Teachers are usually paid less than other equally educated fields for working the same number of hours.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: Isla
Originally posted by: BlancoNino
IMO, we need to dispose of the need for a masters degree at the K-12 level (not all states require this). It simply isn't necessary.

Secondly, teachers need to be held accountable. Don't increase their pay if they aren't performing...and for heavens sake threaten to fire them if they suck (I remember especially in middle school having classes where we sat around and hardly did anything neither did the administration when they were informed of it) and give them an incentive to do better at the same time.

.

Please explain how thinking a MA in Ed isn't necessary and that teacher performance should be a factor at the same time. If I understand your post correctly, you don't think teaching needs any advanced degree but you think teachers should be the best they can be? Because the BEST teachers I know have Master's degrees. In my state, a Master's isn't required, but if you have one, you can be paid an average of 10K more.

There are components to teaching that are very complex, such as the psychology of learning, motivation, and developing curriculum. A BA in education just skims these things. Fortunately, my school district provides continuous training to make sure all teachers have the opportunity to develop their craft.


We also have Pay for Performance in my state. It is somewhat controversial, but in the end I don't think it is a bad thing. At least I get bonuses, which help me pay for all the 'extras' I do for my students.

By the way, I don't have a Master's, but the BA I earned in school was more intensive than a regular education degree. I studied developmental and educational psych. It serves me quite well in the classroom.

In a perfect world every teacher would be required to have a PhD in every subject they taught, and full degrees (not just certification) in Education AND Psychology. I would personally suggest a BS in Psychology (with emphasis on cognitive and developmental), a MA in Education and then on to field work as a pretty good path. Those three things are essential to be the best teacher you can really be. However, that's not going to happen unless you find a way to compensate teachers for those job requirements. Mind you this is for secondary education. Primary teachers are a whole different beast. For them I'd suggest their MS in Psychology becaues so much of early childhood development is psychology, not education based. I would further expand their education degree requirements to be the equivalent of a PhD, but covering all of the subjects taught. Since an elementary teacher generally teaches all subjects they really need much more extensive training than they currently receive.

That isn't really a hard problem to solve. Raise teachers' salaries to the point where the competition to be a math teacher in the Bronx is like getting into the astronaut program at NASA. Labor is a market just like anything else, if you want good quality, you have to be willing to pay for it.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Cerb
Using SATs as a test to compare across years is idiotic. The scores do not drop or raise by design.

Uhmm.... wrong.

No, they're right. The SAT has been purposefully crafted to keep scores up. Every time they change the test it's about equalizing scores. The same is generally true of grades (grade inflation) and education in general. A high school senior in 1950 would have a far more rounded, and deeper, education than one today with equivalent grades (except for the modern focus shift towards science and the accompanying advances). The education system in America has become perfected to teaching to and for the average.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: Isla
Originally posted by: BlancoNino
IMO, we need to dispose of the need for a masters degree at the K-12 level (not all states require this). It simply isn't necessary.

Secondly, teachers need to be held accountable. Don't increase their pay if they aren't performing...and for heavens sake threaten to fire them if they suck (I remember especially in middle school having classes where we sat around and hardly did anything neither did the administration when they were informed of it) and give them an incentive to do better at the same time.

.

Please explain how thinking a MA in Ed isn't necessary and that teacher performance should be a factor at the same time. If I understand your post correctly, you don't think teaching needs any advanced degree but you think teachers should be the best they can be? Because the BEST teachers I know have Master's degrees. In my state, a Master's isn't required, but if you have one, you can be paid an average of 10K more.

There are components to teaching that are very complex, such as the psychology of learning, motivation, and developing curriculum. A BA in education just skims these things. Fortunately, my school district provides continuous training to make sure all teachers have the opportunity to develop their craft.


We also have Pay for Performance in my state. It is somewhat controversial, but in the end I don't think it is a bad thing. At least I get bonuses, which help me pay for all the 'extras' I do for my students.

By the way, I don't have a Master's, but the BA I earned in school was more intensive than a regular education degree. I studied developmental and educational psych. It serves me quite well in the classroom.

In a perfect world every teacher would be required to have a PhD in every subject they taught, and full degrees (not just certification) in Education AND Psychology. I would personally suggest a BS in Psychology (with emphasis on cognitive and developmental), a MA in Education and then on to field work as a pretty good path. Those three things are essential to be the best teacher you can really be. However, that's not going to happen unless you find a way to compensate teachers for those job requirements. Mind you this is for secondary education. Primary teachers are a whole different beast. For them I'd suggest their MS in Psychology becaues so much of early childhood development is psychology, not education based. I would further expand their education degree requirements to be the equivalent of a PhD, but covering all of the subjects taught. Since an elementary teacher generally teaches all subjects they really need much more extensive training than they currently receive.

That isn't really a hard problem to solve. Raise teachers' salaries to the point where the competition to be a math teacher in the Bronx is like getting into the astronaut program at NASA. Labor is a market just like anything else, if you want good quality, you have to be willing to pay for it.

That's part of it, but if you're going to require that much education then you need to create programs to get dedicated teachers through them, regardless of cost. Otherwise people who might otherwise be the best teachers will never get the chance becaues they couldn't afford all the school to qualify.
 

Isla

Elite member
Sep 12, 2000
7,749
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Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: Isla
Originally posted by: BlancoNino
IMO, we need to dispose of the need for a masters degree at the K-12 level (not all states require this). It simply isn't necessary.

Secondly, teachers need to be held accountable. Don't increase their pay if they aren't performing...and for heavens sake threaten to fire them if they suck (I remember especially in middle school having classes where we sat around and hardly did anything neither did the administration when they were informed of it) and give them an incentive to do better at the same time.

.

Please explain how thinking a MA in Ed isn't necessary and that teacher performance should be a factor at the same time. If I understand your post correctly, you don't think teaching needs any advanced degree but you think teachers should be the best they can be? Because the BEST teachers I know have Master's degrees. In my state, a Master's isn't required, but if you have one, you can be paid an average of 10K more.

There are components to teaching that are very complex, such as the psychology of learning, motivation, and developing curriculum. A BA in education just skims these things. Fortunately, my school district provides continuous training to make sure all teachers have the opportunity to develop their craft.


We also have Pay for Performance in my state. It is somewhat controversial, but in the end I don't think it is a bad thing. At least I get bonuses, which help me pay for all the 'extras' I do for my students.

By the way, I don't have a Master's, but the BA I earned in school was more intensive than a regular education degree. I studied developmental and educational psych. It serves me quite well in the classroom.

In a perfect world every teacher would be required to have a PhD in every subject they taught, and full degrees (not just certification) in Education AND Psychology. I would personally suggest a BS in Psychology (with emphasis on cognitive and developmental), a MA in Education and then on to field work as a pretty good path. Those three things are essential to be the best teacher you can really be. However, that's not going to happen unless you find a way to compensate teachers for those job requirements. Mind you this is for secondary education. Primary teachers are a whole different beast. For them I'd suggest their MS in Psychology becaues so much of early childhood development is psychology, not education based. I would further expand their education degree requirements to be the equivalent of a PhD, but covering all of the subjects taught. Since an elementary teacher generally teaches all subjects they really need much more extensive training than they currently receive.

That isn't really a hard problem to solve. Raise teachers' salaries to the point where the competition to be a math teacher in the Bronx is like getting into the astronaut program at NASA. Labor is a market just like anything else, if you want good quality, you have to be willing to pay for it.

That's part of it, but if you're going to require that much education then you need to create programs to get dedicated teachers through them, regardless of cost. Otherwise people who might otherwise be the best teachers will never get the chance becaues they couldn't afford all the school to qualify.


Well, it's very nice to see that there IS some intelligent, thoughtful discussion going on regarding this subject!

I have my BA in psych (with a minor in Soc) and plan to start working on my MA in Education (not sure what area yet) in the next year or so. One of the reasons I haven't started working on the MA yet is because of the cost. I am also a (gasp!) 39 year old mother of 3, and martial arts class and piano lessons are a big part of our weekly routine. I will have to look at a Master's program that will fit in with my schedule... basically, at night and/or on line. I'm not in a hurry, though. I participate in regular workshops that our school board offers (either a week of all day sessions or 10 weeks of on-line instruction) to continue my education. We are required to do this anyway to renew our teaching certificates. Also, I get something called "Pay For Performance" each year if I can prove that I have gone above and beyond (ranked 'outstanding') through my principal's observations and a portfolio of documention. I know a lot of teachers who have similar backgrounds to mine. Maybe it is just because my principal is smart and knows how to get us and keep us. I will admit that I live and work in an upper-middle class community and that DEFINITELY has an impact on our schools. I am not the kind of saint who could work at school in a blighted area. I've done it before... it is way too heartbreaking. It's bad enough having some students in my class with troubled families... I couldn't stay where the MAJORITY of the children have parents in jail, etc.

And *yawn* sure, I could have gone to college to be in a career that makes more money. But money isn't why I teach. It is more of a self-actualization thing. It is truly amazing to be able to do what you love and be loved for what you do.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: Isla
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: Isla
Originally posted by: BlancoNino
IMO, we need to dispose of the need for a masters degree at the K-12 level (not all states require this). It simply isn't necessary.

Secondly, teachers need to be held accountable. Don't increase their pay if they aren't performing...and for heavens sake threaten to fire them if they suck (I remember especially in middle school having classes where we sat around and hardly did anything neither did the administration when they were informed of it) and give them an incentive to do better at the same time.

.

Please explain how thinking a MA in Ed isn't necessary and that teacher performance should be a factor at the same time. If I understand your post correctly, you don't think teaching needs any advanced degree but you think teachers should be the best they can be? Because the BEST teachers I know have Master's degrees. In my state, a Master's isn't required, but if you have one, you can be paid an average of 10K more.

There are components to teaching that are very complex, such as the psychology of learning, motivation, and developing curriculum. A BA in education just skims these things. Fortunately, my school district provides continuous training to make sure all teachers have the opportunity to develop their craft.


We also have Pay for Performance in my state. It is somewhat controversial, but in the end I don't think it is a bad thing. At least I get bonuses, which help me pay for all the 'extras' I do for my students.

By the way, I don't have a Master's, but the BA I earned in school was more intensive than a regular education degree. I studied developmental and educational psych. It serves me quite well in the classroom.

In a perfect world every teacher would be required to have a PhD in every subject they taught, and full degrees (not just certification) in Education AND Psychology. I would personally suggest a BS in Psychology (with emphasis on cognitive and developmental), a MA in Education and then on to field work as a pretty good path. Those three things are essential to be the best teacher you can really be. However, that's not going to happen unless you find a way to compensate teachers for those job requirements. Mind you this is for secondary education. Primary teachers are a whole different beast. For them I'd suggest their MS in Psychology becaues so much of early childhood development is psychology, not education based. I would further expand their education degree requirements to be the equivalent of a PhD, but covering all of the subjects taught. Since an elementary teacher generally teaches all subjects they really need much more extensive training than they currently receive.

That isn't really a hard problem to solve. Raise teachers' salaries to the point where the competition to be a math teacher in the Bronx is like getting into the astronaut program at NASA. Labor is a market just like anything else, if you want good quality, you have to be willing to pay for it.

That's part of it, but if you're going to require that much education then you need to create programs to get dedicated teachers through them, regardless of cost. Otherwise people who might otherwise be the best teachers will never get the chance becaues they couldn't afford all the school to qualify.


Well, it's very nice to see that there IS some intelligent, thoughtful discussion going on regarding this subject!

I have my BA in psych (with a minor in Soc) and plan to start working on my MA in Education (not sure what area yet) in the next year or so. One of the reasons I haven't started working on the MA yet is because of the cost. I am also a (gasp!) 39 year old mother of 3, and martial arts class and piano lessons are a big part of our weekly routine. I will have to look at a Master's program that will fit in with my schedule... basically, at night and/or on line. I'm not in a hurry, though. I participate in regular workshops that our school board offers (either a week of all day sessions or 10 weeks of on-line instruction) to continue my education. We are required to do this anyway to renew our teaching certificates. Also, I get something called "Pay For Performance" each year if I can prove that I have gone above and beyond (ranked 'outstanding') through my principal's observations and a portfolio of documention. I know a lot of teachers who have similar backgrounds to mine. Maybe it is just because my principal is smart and knows how to get us and keep us. I will admit that I live and work in an upper-middle class community and that DEFINITELY has an impact on our schools. I am not the kind of saint who could work at school in a blighted area. I've done it before... it is way too heartbreaking. It's bad enough having some students in my class with troubled families... I couldn't stay where the MAJORITY of the children have parents in jail, etc.

And *yawn* sure, I could have gone to college to be in a career that makes more money. But money isn't why I teach. It is more of a self-actualization thing. It is truly amazing to be able to do what you love and be loved for what you do.

I won't be teaching inner-city either, but not because I don't want to work with those kids. I just HATE cities. I'll probably end up very rural...even looking into teahing in the bush in Alaska. That would be a good fit for me given the number of widely different degrees I'm getting (bush teachers tend to teach many subjects to a wide range of ages).
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,136
55,661
136
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Cerb
Using SATs as a test to compare across years is idiotic. The scores do not drop or raise by design.

Uhmm.... wrong.

No, they're right. The SAT has been purposefully crafted to keep scores up. Every time they change the test it's about equalizing scores. The same is generally true of grades (grade inflation) and education in general. A high school senior in 1950 would have a far more rounded, and deeper, education than one today with equivalent grades (except for the modern focus shift towards science and the accompanying advances). The education system in America has become perfected to teaching to and for the average.

No, they're not right. Scores when related between years are controlled for readjustments... so all the numbers are on the same scale. The test has not been dumbed down, nor have standards been lowered.... nor have test scores declined in any meaningful way since the 70's (which can be attributed to increased participation by more segments of the population that in the test that would have otherwise never gone to college before then).

Do you know where that 1000 point average came from? Read this and find out. You will notice in there it is mentioned that the original scale came from the test performance of about 10,000 extremely self selected students that are just not in any way representative of normal high school students taking the SAT.

I have seen no evidence to support the assertion that a high school senior in 1950 had a better education then today. Particularly not the average college bound high school senior. (nowadays a significantly higher percentage of kids are in/complete high school then back then, and so with a larger proportion of the population you are now including people who would have otherwise dropped out).

Not only that, but you admit that today's science and math is more comprehensive then in the past. So what are you talking about exactly? They are less well read in the classics? Why are you valuing certain types of education over others? What defines "deepness" of education?

Last thing: You said the school system is geared towards teaching to the average. Who else should they be gearing it towards?
 

Isla

Elite member
Sep 12, 2000
7,749
2
0
I won't be teaching inner-city either, but not because I don't want to work with those kids. I just HATE cities. I'll probably end up very rural...even looking into teahing in the bush in Alaska. That would be a good fit for me given the number of widely different degrees I'm getting (bush teachers tend to teach many subjects to a wide range of ages).


That sounds awesome. You will never have a boring day! :D

I do have a very diverse class, because I am certified to teach special ed as well as gifted. I currently have an autistic student, an educably mentally handicapped student, one who is diagnosed specific learning disabled and 2 who have reports pending, PLUS several academically gifted students and 'regular' kids. Essentially, I have 3 very different classes in one, and meeting all their needs is a neat trick. I don't think I could do it if I didn't have the background in Psych. I also think that the 'average' teacher isn't prepared for the reality of the classroom. Anyone who goes into teaching thinking it will be easy is going to be disillusioned quickly.

Again, I have to laugh at the peanut gallery here who love to criticize members of a profession they couldn't excel at, either!

At least my engineer husband has the sense to know he wouldn't last 5 minutes in a classroom. :p
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Cerb
Using SATs as a test to compare across years is idiotic. The scores do not drop or raise by design.

Uhmm.... wrong.

No, they're right. The SAT has been purposefully crafted to keep scores up. Every time they change the test it's about equalizing scores. The same is generally true of grades (grade inflation) and education in general. A high school senior in 1950 would have a far more rounded, and deeper, education than one today with equivalent grades (except for the modern focus shift towards science and the accompanying advances). The education system in America has become perfected to teaching to and for the average.

No, they're not right. Scores when related between years are controlled for readjustments... so all the numbers are on the same scale. The test has not been dumbed down, nor have standards been lowered.... nor have test scores declined in any meaningful way since the 70's (which can be attributed to increased participation by more segments of the population that in the test that would have otherwise never gone to college before then).

Do you know where that 1000 point average came from? Read this and find out. You will notice in there it is mentioned that the original scale came from the test performance of about 10,000 extremely self selected students that are just not in any way representative of normal high school students taking the SAT.

I have seen no evidence to support the assertion that a high school senior in 1950 had a better education then today. Particularly not the average college bound high school senior. (nowadays a significantly higher percentage of kids are in/complete high school then back then, and so with a larger proportion of the population you are now including people who would have otherwise dropped out).

Not only that, but you admit that today's science and math is more comprehensive then in the past. So what are you talking about exactly? They are less well read in the classics? Why are you valuing certain types of education over others? What defines "deepness" of education?

Last thing: You said the school system is geared towards teaching to the average. Who else should they be gearing it towards?

So let me see if I understand the logic: Before 1964 only the upper segment was likely to attend college. Not that wealth = intelligence, but as stated high SES is positively correlated to school achievement. Therefore the people taking the SAT's in 1964 generally had the highest testing aptitude. Then there's a major shift in college attendence over four decades, and people who would never have considered college before (and may not be qualified in general) are now taking the SAT's. Since we've established that these people are generally not as academically inclined how is it that the scores remain the same? Furthermore since the '70s there has been increasing interest in scoring discrepencies between genders and races. That gap has lessened significantly, out of proportion to other indicators of differences. Also, studies have shown that since the '70s foreign students score increasingly well on the SAT's (higher than Americans btw), despite scoring the same or lower on their own college testing which has followed an opposite path than here in the US (many nations attempt to weed out those not qualified for higher education and are therefore increasing testing and admission difficulty). In other words, American students are declining when compared against other students, but are scoring the same after numerous revampings of the SAT. That clearly indicates the test is being designed to allow higher scores (or at least scores less 'biased' against gender, race, and SES).

In the middle of the twentieth century American school students scored among the highest in the world in all sorts of ways. Now we score horribly when compared. Those foreign students are maintaining constant scoring by their own methodology, thereby indicating that it's our students declining, and not some other factor. Furthermore I have had the opportunity to review tests from the period in various topics and then compare them to modern tests. There is NO question that more was expected of previous students with regards to critical reasoning, and knowledge.

Curriculum changes are fairly apparant. Previously balanced education with inclusion of arts, humanities, classics, math, science, civics, and so on have been trimmed down to those classes which will be tested (math, english, etc) with a few designed to get people out into society (computer skills and so on). I have no problem with the expansion of science and math, but removing other equally important disciplines is unacceptable to me. Now, there is no question that I have made a normative judgement about the purpose and benefits of different types of education. I am 100% committed to education being about the ability to reason and the imparting of a baseline of knowledge that gives all people a common grounding to progress from. I absolutely refute the goal of education being social adaptation or workforce preparation, though I acknowlege the legitimacy of opinon for people who desire those goals.

Abilities of individuals vary. Any person with capabilities above average become wasted in a system designed to be average. I applaud the desire to provide an environment for the below average, but sacficing the above average to attain it is just trading one wrong for another (of equal numbers). The goal and method of education should be to teach to the maximum potential of every student. Those with a 170IQ or exceptional knowledge and ability should not be forced into the same situation as those with an IQ of 90 or no particular skillset. Funding for below average programs is many times the funding for gifted programs. Other nations consider intelligence and education exceptional qualities, encourage them, and are geared towards allowing those with the ability to progress accordingly. By not teaching to averages they allow their students to reach their maximum potential, without unduly restricting the chances for a highly determined 'average' person.
 

Isla

Elite member
Sep 12, 2000
7,749
2
0
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Cerb
Using SATs as a test to compare across years is idiotic. The scores do not drop or raise by design.

Uhmm.... wrong.

No, they're right. The SAT has been purposefully crafted to keep scores up. Every time they change the test it's about equalizing scores. The same is generally true of grades (grade inflation) and education in general. A high school senior in 1950 would have a far more rounded, and deeper, education than one today with equivalent grades (except for the modern focus shift towards science and the accompanying advances). The education system in America has become perfected to teaching to and for the average.

No, they're not right. Scores when related between years are controlled for readjustments... so all the numbers are on the same scale. The test has not been dumbed down, nor have standards been lowered.... nor have test scores declined in any meaningful way since the 70's (which can be attributed to increased participation by more segments of the population that in the test that would have otherwise never gone to college before then).

Do you know where that 1000 point average came from? Read this and find out. You will notice in there it is mentioned that the original scale came from the test performance of about 10,000 extremely self selected students that are just not in any way representative of normal high school students taking the SAT.

I have seen no evidence to support the assertion that a high school senior in 1950 had a better education then today. Particularly not the average college bound high school senior. (nowadays a significantly higher percentage of kids are in/complete high school then back then, and so with a larger proportion of the population you are now including people who would have otherwise dropped out).

Not only that, but you admit that today's science and math is more comprehensive then in the past. So what are you talking about exactly? They are less well read in the classics? Why are you valuing certain types of education over others? What defines "deepness" of education?

Last thing: You said the school system is geared towards teaching to the average. Who else should they be gearing it towards?

So let me see if I understand the logic: Before 1964 only the upper segment was likely to attend college. Not that wealth = intelligence, but as stated high SES is positively correlated to school achievement. Therefore the people taking the SAT's in 1964 generally had the highest testing aptitude. Then there's a major shift in college attendence over four decades, and people who would never have considered college before (and may not be qualified in general) are now taking the SAT's. Since we've established that these people are generally not as academically inclined how is it that the scores remain the same? Furthermore since the '70s there has been increasing interest in scoring discrepencies between genders and races. That gap has lessened significantly, out of proportion to other indicators of differences. Also, studies have shown that since the '70s foreign students score increasingly well on the SAT's (higher than Americans btw), despite scoring the same or lower on their own college testing which has followed an opposite path than here in the US (many nations attempt to weed out those not qualified for higher education and are therefore increasing testing and admission difficulty). In other words, American students are declining when compared against other students, but are scoring the same after numerous revampings of the SAT. That clearly indicates the test is being designed to allow higher scores (or at least scores less 'biased' against gender, race, and SES).

In the middle of the twentieth century American school students scored among the highest in the world in all sorts of ways. Now we score horribly when compared. Those foreign students are maintaining constant scoring by their own methodology, thereby indicating that it's our students declining, and not some other factor. Furthermore I have had the opportunity to review tests from the period in various topics and then compare them to modern tests. There is NO question that more was expected of previous students with regards to critical reasoning, and knowledge.

Curriculum changes are fairly apparant. Previously balanced education with inclusion of arts, humanities, classics, math, science, civics, and so on have been trimmed down to those classes which will be tested (math, english, etc) with a few designed to get people out into society (computer skills and so on). I have no problem with the expansion of science and math, but removing other equally important disciplines is unacceptable to me. Now, there is no question that I have made a normative judgement about the purpose and benefits of different types of education. I am 100% committed to education being about the ability to reason and the imparting of a baseline of knowledge that gives all people a common grounding to progress from. I absolutely refute the goal of education being social adaptation or workforce preparation, though I acknowlege the legitimacy of opinon for people who desire those goals.

Abilities of individuals vary. Any person with capabilities above average become wasted in a system designed to be average. I applaud the desire to provide an environment for the below average, but sacficing the above average to attain it is just trading one wrong for another (of equal numbers). The goal and method of education should be to teach to the maximum potential of every student. Those with a 170IQ or exceptional knowledge and ability should not be forced into the same situation as those with an IQ of 90 or no particular skillset. Funding for below average programs is many times the funding for gifted programs. Other nations consider intelligence and education exceptional qualities, encourage them, and are geared towards allowing those with the ability to progress accordingly. By not teaching to averages they allow their students to reach their maximum potential, without unduly restricting the chances for a highly determined 'average' person.

I love it when someone who actually knows what they are talking about checks in. :)

 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: Isla
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Cerb
Using SATs as a test to compare across years is idiotic. The scores do not drop or raise by design.

Uhmm.... wrong.

No, they're right. The SAT has been purposefully crafted to keep scores up. Every time they change the test it's about equalizing scores. The same is generally true of grades (grade inflation) and education in general. A high school senior in 1950 would have a far more rounded, and deeper, education than one today with equivalent grades (except for the modern focus shift towards science and the accompanying advances). The education system in America has become perfected to teaching to and for the average.

No, they're not right. Scores when related between years are controlled for readjustments... so all the numbers are on the same scale. The test has not been dumbed down, nor have standards been lowered.... nor have test scores declined in any meaningful way since the 70's (which can be attributed to increased participation by more segments of the population that in the test that would have otherwise never gone to college before then).

Do you know where that 1000 point average came from? Read this and find out. You will notice in there it is mentioned that the original scale came from the test performance of about 10,000 extremely self selected students that are just not in any way representative of normal high school students taking the SAT.

I have seen no evidence to support the assertion that a high school senior in 1950 had a better education then today. Particularly not the average college bound high school senior. (nowadays a significantly higher percentage of kids are in/complete high school then back then, and so with a larger proportion of the population you are now including people who would have otherwise dropped out).

Not only that, but you admit that today's science and math is more comprehensive then in the past. So what are you talking about exactly? They are less well read in the classics? Why are you valuing certain types of education over others? What defines "deepness" of education?

Last thing: You said the school system is geared towards teaching to the average. Who else should they be gearing it towards?

So let me see if I understand the logic: Before 1964 only the upper segment was likely to attend college. Not that wealth = intelligence, but as stated high SES is positively correlated to school achievement. Therefore the people taking the SAT's in 1964 generally had the highest testing aptitude. Then there's a major shift in college attendence over four decades, and people who would never have considered college before (and may not be qualified in general) are now taking the SAT's. Since we've established that these people are generally not as academically inclined how is it that the scores remain the same? Furthermore since the '70s there has been increasing interest in scoring discrepencies between genders and races. That gap has lessened significantly, out of proportion to other indicators of differences. Also, studies have shown that since the '70s foreign students score increasingly well on the SAT's (higher than Americans btw), despite scoring the same or lower on their own college testing which has followed an opposite path than here in the US (many nations attempt to weed out those not qualified for higher education and are therefore increasing testing and admission difficulty). In other words, American students are declining when compared against other students, but are scoring the same after numerous revampings of the SAT. That clearly indicates the test is being designed to allow higher scores (or at least scores less 'biased' against gender, race, and SES).

In the middle of the twentieth century American school students scored among the highest in the world in all sorts of ways. Now we score horribly when compared. Those foreign students are maintaining constant scoring by their own methodology, thereby indicating that it's our students declining, and not some other factor. Furthermore I have had the opportunity to review tests from the period in various topics and then compare them to modern tests. There is NO question that more was expected of previous students with regards to critical reasoning, and knowledge.

Curriculum changes are fairly apparant. Previously balanced education with inclusion of arts, humanities, classics, math, science, civics, and so on have been trimmed down to those classes which will be tested (math, english, etc) with a few designed to get people out into society (computer skills and so on). I have no problem with the expansion of science and math, but removing other equally important disciplines is unacceptable to me. Now, there is no question that I have made a normative judgement about the purpose and benefits of different types of education. I am 100% committed to education being about the ability to reason and the imparting of a baseline of knowledge that gives all people a common grounding to progress from. I absolutely refute the goal of education being social adaptation or workforce preparation, though I acknowlege the legitimacy of opinon for people who desire those goals.

Abilities of individuals vary. Any person with capabilities above average become wasted in a system designed to be average. I applaud the desire to provide an environment for the below average, but sacficing the above average to attain it is just trading one wrong for another (of equal numbers). The goal and method of education should be to teach to the maximum potential of every student. Those with a 170IQ or exceptional knowledge and ability should not be forced into the same situation as those with an IQ of 90 or no particular skillset. Funding for below average programs is many times the funding for gifted programs. Other nations consider intelligence and education exceptional qualities, encourage them, and are geared towards allowing those with the ability to progress accordingly. By not teaching to averages they allow their students to reach their maximum potential, without unduly restricting the chances for a highly determined 'average' person.

I love it when someone who actually knows what they are talking about checks in. :)

Well, I'd say I have a supportable opinion...then again so does the opposition. The ETS and College board have spent a lot of money 'proving' that the SAT's aren't dumbed down and are an accurate reflection of knowledge/ability. Unfortunately other groups have shown the opposite. Damn statistics. :cool:

I can understand their reasoning and goals...I just find it convenient that it also provides a remarkable increase in earnings for those groups, and the business of higher education in general. It also coincides remarkably well with the evolution of our education system into a socialized worker-mill of averages.

*shrug* This is one of the debates that I don't believe is 'winnable'. There are simply too many variables and ways of intrpreting the data. I stick by my opinion mostly because of my underlying idealistic beliefs about the ideal nature of education itself.

I would love to have the resources to perform an experiment to give us more data: I'd like to take 500 people aged 30-45 and have them take an SAT issued in 1960, then one issued in 1985, and finally one in 2007. Then I'd want different groups of 500 in that age to take them in all of the possible orders. I'd then have groups of 500 people aged 18 do the same thing, followed by groups of people over age 55. Then we could look at the data and see.
 

wiin

Senior member
Oct 28, 1999
937
0
76
I am guessing here that you are not and have never been a teacher. Accountable to the students? Before you blame teachers, very many of whom are working more than their required hours per day, why don't you look at why studens are failing? I can give you several examples to start with. for example, look at the number of students who are failing. You will find that these are the students who don't attend class, don't do their assignments, and are distruptive in class(yapping in class while the teacher is teaching, disturbing other students). Next, look at how many parents go to parent teacher conference and how many complain about their children's failing grade. You will find that these parents do not know anything about their childrens school activities even though thier children are given lessons plan way ahead of time.

America has the best school system in the world. It is free and students are given every opportunity to excell. It is not the fault of teachers or the school system that some students are not doing well. Success in school is a 30/70 proposition. The 70 percent is your( the students) responsibility.

Originally posted by: Shivetya
http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_5438779

Well of course the teacher's union would be opposed. Currently in California a teacher can be fired if they have been there less than two years. Past that an tenure protects them, requiring thousands of dollars to be wasted just to oust a rotten teacher. Some times it can take 5 years to get rid of one.

Of course the teachers claim its the adminstrators that need to be looked into.


I have a better idea, hold them both to the same standards. If more money is needed for teachers then get rid of the over abundance of adminstrative people (and the percentage of them can be very high) but also fire teachers who cannot prove their competence.

We can't fix the system if it not accountable to the students.

 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,136
55,661
136
No, I guess you missed an important part of that article and of my post. I said scores have remained unchanged since the 70's. There was in fact a significant drop during the 50's and 60's when these other demographics were added into the mix. It is simply a fact that scores have remained statistically unchanged since the 70's. Don't take my word for it... look it up. If the scores drop when you add in less smart people and then stay the same afterwards there appear to be two competing theories. Either A.) People have always had about the same distribution of ability and so this greater inclusion now more closely resembles the normal curve or B.) we're getting dumber and hiding it with tests. The simplest solution is the most likely one, and so B seems unlikely to me.

Anyways, to cross check what I did with the SAT, I compared the ACT results from 1970 to present as well (check the notes for info on score normalization) Score changes in that test as well have not changed in any statistically significant way. Is another independant body also dumbing their tests down at the same rate as the SAT? This seems very unlikely.

It's strange that you mention the lack of classic literature in schools. I went to a pretty good public school, and we read Chaucer, Plato, etc. My mom teaches at what was at one time (and is still relatively close to) the worst public school in Pennsylvania as an english teacher. They still read shakespere, plato, and things like that. Sure it's anecdotal evidence... but I think its interesting that schools from the best to the worst are still teaching those things at least where I know of.

The idea that an educational system should teach to the maximum potential of everyone is all well and good, but that simply costs far more money then we as a society are willing to spend. So... within our budget constraints your perfect school is extremely unlikely. Special education recieves significantly more funding then gifted programs primarily because of behavioral problems. You need extra people to control the kids that you simply don't need in gifted environments. These extra personnel are an extremely expensive prerequisite to getting anything done.

All the things I have seen and read about "dumbing down" of tests seems to be anecdotal or due to a lack of understanding of when the scores were recentered on the SAT. I just haven't seen any evidence that would lead me to believe otherwise.
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,549
1,130
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Teachers I know of make around 30-40k a year with summers off and not to mention lots of benefits. I don't see how that's much different than most college graduates with a Bachelor's degree looking for work.

Your numbers are simply wrong, and the "summer off" thing is crap. Anyone who actually knows a teacher knows that they put in WAY longer hours then your average person during the school year. Here's some actual numbers on it. The starting salary for a teacher is around $30,000 a year... which is about 25% less then a person in another field with an equal level of education. The numbers for one town are just plain irrelevant.

EDIT: I screwed up my link

The avg starting salary of someone with a BA is $28k.

The only people making $40k+ are those in biz and engineering. Or they went to Ivys.

To put things into perspective, a person with an ADN can make $60k their first year. RadTechs and PharmTechs make abouy $40k their first year as well.

And dont try to compare a MBA, MD, or JD to a teacher, they spend significantly more on their education. Anywhere from $60-250k more. The later two also work twice as much as a teacher, without such things as Winter Break, Spring Break, and Summer.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,136
55,661
136
Originally posted by: Wreckem

The avg starting salary of someone with a BA is $28k.

The only people making $40k+ are those in biz and engineering. Or they went to Ivys.

Business and engineering encompasses.. well... pretty much the rest of the college educated workforce of the United States.

Also there are lots and lots of teachers who have a BS instead of a BA.

I can't believe people are still trying to debate that. (oh, and we already covered the summer off thing earlier. it's crap.)
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,513
14,903
146
Gotta love people who blame the teachers, when in reality, the fault lies with "Johnny" and his parents. Johnny wants to listen to his Ipod all fvcking day, and his parents don't give 2 sh*ts about whether he actually does his homework or not, as long as the school system babysits him during the day, so they can work...but, if he fails a class, they may scream bloody murder, and accuse the teacher of being a bad teacher...
Are there bad teachers? You betcha, just like there are bad engineers, bad IT people, bad doctors, etc...Contrary to popular belief, most school districts have ways of getting rid of the truly BAD ones, although yes, some manage to slip thru the bureaucratic BS and stay...Here in Kahleeforneeya, we have such a terrible teacher shortage, that they can't fill the spots with qualified teachers.

http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage....odeId=136&languageId=1&contentId=14927
"California Teacher Requirements Under Fire

California's teacher hiring policy came under fire last week, with a U.S Congressman, federal and state officials quibbling over whether it is up to snuff. The criticism is a sign of the nationwide confusion over one of the most controversial provisions of the federal "No Child Left Behind"law.

The law mandates that low-income school districts hire only those new teachers this year who are certified and "highly qualified," which the law defines as teachers who have at least a bachelor's degree and pass a "rigorous" state certification exam. It says that by 2006, all teachers must be "highly qualified" and school districts that fail to comply risk losing their federal funding.

But this year, confusion and frustration - reign over the definition of "highly qualified" and whether, and how, the law's provision can be enforced.

California education officials consider teacher interns and teaching novices with bachelor degrees and emergency teaching permits as "highly qualified" because they meet the degree requirement. California's Board of Education said so in a routine funding application to the U.S. Department of Education in May, which was approved in June.

But when California U.S. Rep. George Miller, an architect of the "No Child Left Behind Act", found out last week that these types of teachers are allowed in California classrooms, he lambasted the state board of education for accepting hiring standards that he said are in violation of the law.

In a letter to state board members, Miller declared: "This is an audacious and reckless action that suggests a lack of regard for students, parents and taxpayers."

California school officials defended the state's standards, maintaining that they meet the federal requirements.

The U.S. Department of Education, which is supposed to enforce the law, sounded as confused as everyone else. Last week a department spokesman told reporters that California's policy "would not pass muster."

But later, in a separate interview, Stephanie Babyak, a U.S. Department of Education spokeswoman, acknowledged that the federal agency had not reviewed California's definition of a "highly qualified" teacher in the application before it was approved.

"It's kind of confusing," Babyak said.

The commotion over California's teaching standards is compounding the already ambiguous nature of the new federal requirement on teacher quality, which many states say they cannot meet. Fortunately for them, federal officials are not planning to crack the whip anytime soon.

"There are consequences we can impose, including cutting off of public funds," says Jane Glickman, another department spokeswoman. "But a state would have to be blatantly thumbing its nose at the law for us to act."

Congress included the teacher quality provisions in the "No Child Left Behind" Act in order to boost the caliber of teaching in the nation's public schools. Numerous studies show that good teacher quality, more than class size and other factors, leads to high student achievement.

The most up-to-date definition of "highly qualified" is in a federal guidance to the states that has yet to be finalized (although department officials say its not likely to change). Elementary school teachers new to the profession must have at least a bachelor's degree and pass a rigorous state test on basic elementary school curriculum. New middle and secondary school teachers must pass tests on the subject matter they will teach or have graduate degree, academic major or advanced certification in the subject.

What exactly the department means by "rigorous" remains unclear.

But what's certain is that the federal agency views many states' requirements as unacceptable.

A report by the department released in June called "Meeting The Highly Qualified Teachers Challenge" found that most states set minimum levels for their certification exams that are "shockingly low." Raising the bar is more difficult than it seems, many state education officials said because of widespread teacher shortages. Even with the low standards, many school districts are having problems filling all their teacher slots.

"It's challenging because in most states there aren't a lot of teachers in the pipeline," said Patty Sullivan of the Washington DC.-based Council of Chief State School Officers. "States have to fill their classrooms one way or another. If you're a superintendent and you post a job and no one answers, what are you supposed to do?"

"It's not that we don't want to have all of our teachers fully certified," said Andy Tompkin, commissioner of education in Kansas, where not all special education and middle school teachers are fully certified. "It's that we have some supply problems."

Still, if not this year, states will eventually have to make changes to their requirements that satisfy federal officials. California's experience is a reminder of that fact.

"My suspicion is that other states will look at what happened in California and try to be more subtle about any changes they make," says Kati Kaycock, director of the Education Trust, a non-profit organization that promotes education reform. "

 

feelingshorter

Platinum Member
May 5, 2004
2,439
0
71
I agree. Its all Johnny's fault for the most part. Good teachers are another thing but the student has to have a will to learn first.
 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
A problem with teaching and 'bad' teachers in general is that there's not enough monetary compensation to make it worth their while. So many of the people who would be excellent teachers go off to other, higher paying careers, and rightly so. Teachers need to get paid more while they're working, and that starts and ends with cutting pensions. School budgets are hamstrung by retired teachers who are pulling in a large chunk of their salary. And many times there are teachers who are just hanging in there so they can qualify for pensions - and they stop caring about teaching. And then there are those who retire as soon as possible to get a pension because it's just not worth the effort anymore.

So cut pensions and pay teachers more while they're working. A better-paid teacher is one who is more likely to be motivated and care.
 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
And by 'cutting' pensions, I don't mean eliminating them, that's ridiculous, just reduce the amount.
 

BlancoNino

Diamond Member
Oct 31, 2005
5,695
0
0
Originally posted by: Isla
Please explain how thinking a MA in Ed isn't necessary and that teacher performance should be a factor at the same time. If I understand your post correctly, you don't think teaching needs any advanced degree but you think teachers should be the best they can be? Because the BEST teachers I know have Master's degrees. In my state, a Master's isn't required, but if you have one, you can be paid an average of 10K more.

And honestly they are probably good teachers because they are the type to want to work hard and get an MA (along with teach well).

IMO, 2 years of experience > 2 years of college. Obviously there are much harder things to teach (usually at the college level) and stuff and perhaps an MA should be needed for certain stuff.

It could be debated for a very long time what's wrong with our education or what could be improved, and I think we should start looking at what our nation was doing when we were number 1 in education in the world. Good discipline and stressing the 3 Rs over everything else.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
No, I guess you missed an important part of that article and of my post. I said scores have remained unchanged since the 70's. There was in fact a significant drop during the 50's and 60's when these other demographics were added into the mix. It is simply a fact that scores have remained statistically unchanged since the 70's. Don't take my word for it... look it up. If the scores drop when you add in less smart people and then stay the same afterwards there appear to be two competing theories. Either A.) People have always had about the same distribution of ability and so this greater inclusion now more closely resembles the normal curve or B.) we're getting dumber and hiding it with tests. The simplest solution is the most likely one, and so B seems unlikely to me.

Anyways, to cross check what I did with the SAT, I compared the ACT results from 1970 to present as well (check the notes for info on score normalization) Score changes in that test as well have not changed in any statistically significant way. Is another independant body also dumbing their tests down at the same rate as the SAT? This seems very unlikely.

It's strange that you mention the lack of classic literature in schools. I went to a pretty good public school, and we read Chaucer, Plato, etc. My mom teaches at what was at one time (and is still relatively close to) the worst public school in Pennsylvania as an english teacher. They still read shakespere, plato, and things like that. Sure it's anecdotal evidence... but I think its interesting that schools from the best to the worst are still teaching those things at least where I know of.

The idea that an educational system should teach to the maximum potential of everyone is all well and good, but that simply costs far more money then we as a society are willing to spend. So... within our budget constraints your perfect school is extremely unlikely. Special education recieves significantly more funding then gifted programs primarily because of behavioral problems. You need extra people to control the kids that you simply don't need in gifted environments. These extra personnel are an extremely expensive prerequisite to getting anything done.

All the things I have seen and read about "dumbing down" of tests seems to be anecdotal or due to a lack of understanding of when the scores were recentered on the SAT. I just haven't seen any evidence that would lead me to believe otherwise.

Ok, here's some other thoughts for you.

From 1966 to 1995 verbal scores dropped from an average of 466 to an average of 428. In 1995 the test was 'recentered' (which brought a 76 point jump in verbal, 24 in math) under the new calculation system. Since then scores began to climb (4 pts verbal, 10 points math), excep that in 2006 (when they changed the test format) they dropped again (5 points verbal, 2 points math) for a net loss in verbal, and a net gain in math since 1996. Is it a big loss? No, and it probably is more about the new type of test than anything else, although minority test taking was at an all time high (up 60-90% depending on ethnicity) and shouldn't be discounted. However the drop from 1966 to 1995 (of almost 10%) is pretty significant and leads many to question the 'recentering'. Even if you throw out the recentering issue you're still looking at a 44 point drop in verbal scores between 1966 and 1996 and that's clearly significant. Our test scores have gone down as much as 10%, while our grades have increased drastically. I'll refer you back to the fact that many foreign nations are scoring roughly the same on their standardized tests which have not changed while their students scored higher on the SAT's than in previous decades. In other words, without changing their teaching the students of other countries are scoring higher on our SAT's than they used to. As to the ACT, a new version began being used in 1990 where there was *mock shock* a sudden rise of about 10% in scores which had been roughly stable before that. Why stable? I'm glad you asked that. Low SES and minority students (vaguely redundant) have historically taken the SAT in MUCH larger numbers than those demographics take the ACT. In fact, the percentage of ACT takers from those groups rose only slightly for most of the twentieth century, while the SAT's saw a very large increase in those groups participating. Is that the only explanation? No, but it is interesting.

So, test results where SES and minority has increased showed a drop up until the test makers 'recentered' and changed their tests, then there was a sudden jump in scores. In tests where SES and minorities have historically played less of a role scores remained unchanged until those tests were also changed (remarkably at the same time low SES and minority participation began increasing). Is it proof? No. It's very interesting though.

There's a huge difference between reading a Shakesperean play, and having a 'classical' education. There were very few 'classics' at my school. Now our anectdotals cancel each other out. Now we'll move on to factual: cuts in funding affect non-tested areas first. Electives are the first to go. Non-core classes (those not being tested) are quickly disappearing. Music, art, and drama are all but gone, and electives within tested fields are quickly following. There is simply no on in America arguing that we have the same bredth and depth of subjects generally available as we used to...because we don't. Modern education is moving away from 'classical' education, even in areas not being cut. A big part of that is just changes in methodology, which happen cyclically. Another factor could be (and I believe is) a change towards education as a business and as a social acclimation tool, instead of a place to provide reason and knowledge. This is also somewhat cyclical in nature.

Other nations manage a different view of education, and their societies have a different view of intelligence (in my opinion the latter causes the former). These nations manage to offer much better education for those average to exceptional. Sadly many do not do as well with their special needs education, but some do both. I disagree completely with your assessment of special education in America. Funding isn't just about teachers; it's about classrooms, programs, teachers, aides, research, equipment, political agendas, social/cultural perceptions, and much more. We don't just spend on extra teachers in special ed, we spend in countless ways intended to get as many as possible as close to average as possible - and in so doing we have the same affect on those above as those below (we bring them to average). Sure having more money and people allow the challenged to reach their potential - but those same measures are necessary to allow anyone to reach their potential. Every class, and every level of ability, would profit from the extra attention in just the same ways. The difference is that as a society we do not value intelligence as much as we value gardening our vegetables (my apologies for the crass analogy). We don't like smart people, in fact we belittle then, and we fear them...which is really too bad since average people merely carely on the status quo while the exceptional people move the world forward.