So, yet another study showing public education isn't working.

[imported_Shivetya]

http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_5438779

Well of course the teacher's union would be opposed. Currently in California a teacher can be fired if they have been there less than two years. Past that an tenure protects them, requiring thousands of dollars to be wasted just to oust a rotten teacher. Some times it can take 5 years to get rid of one.

Of course the teachers claim its the adminstrators that need to be looked into.


I have a better idea, hold them both to the same standards. If more money is needed for teachers then get rid of the over abundance of adminstrative people (and the percentage of them can be very high) but also fire teachers who cannot prove their competence.

We can't fix the system if it not accountable to the students.

 

[CycloWizard]

Schools are a government institution. No one in the government can be fired - they can only be promoted. As a government employee once told me, "Cream rises to the top, but so does feces."

 

[piasabird]

Maybe all teacher's unions need to be outlawed. Most federal employees do not have unions. I see no justification for teacher's unions. What I do see is that in many large cities, there is a shortage of qualified people to fill any teaching position.

I can see some definite problems with this kind of thing.

Teachers could be hired or fired by people with a political agenda. I have watched some of the antics of school boards like the one in St Louis, MO and a lot of the hiring and firing is based on politics. First they made all of the coaching positions virtually one year contract jobs. Then one school did not hire back a coach that had won several State Championships, and made a decision that no other school in the district could hire him and tried to publicly humiliate him, ruin his career, and then tried to also ruin his family.

The biggest problem is school boards are invoved in hiring and firing, and they tend to be very political.

Besides that it only takes a few undocumented workers or non-english speaking immigrants with children to ruin the average test scores in any school district.

 

[fskimospy]

Ok, first of all... teachers aren't federal employees.

Second of all, teachers are some of the lowest paid of the professional working class that there is. If you want top notch teachers, you have to provide top notch pay. (which you won't do, as you cry about salaries already). What motivation is there for the best to go teach when they can make way more money doing something else?

Teachers already have a thankless job where they are pulled in a hundred different directions by a thousand different interests, all the way being used as a scapegoat by politicians and parents who think that it's the teachers fault their kid got an F, not their kid who didn't do his homework.

Did you ever notice that achievement tracks very closely by school, and school district... not by classroom? Considering all California administrations are similarly 'hamstrung' by the inability to fire crappy teachers, do you think the schools in bad areas are just exceptionally bad/unlucky in the hiring process? Or would it just MAYBE be reasonable to think that something else was to blame?

Strange, La Jolla High School has amazing achievement scores, but Chula Vista down here doesn't. Maybe its because the kids in La Jolla are taught by their parents to value education, and the kids in Chula Vista aren't so much. Maybe failing schools are a cultural problem. Do you think firing some teachers will solve this?

Of course not. Then again, I probably just put more thought into this in the last 2 minutes then you ever have in your entire life. Just go on and make a new topic though about the 'dummycrats' or something else that you have no knowledge about. I guess you're a good troll if nothing else.

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Ok, first of all... teachers aren't federal employees.

Second of all, teachers are some of the lowest paid of the professional working class that there is. If you want top notch teachers, you have to provide top notch pay. (which you won't do, as you cry about salaries already). What motivation is there for the best to go teach when they can make way more money doing something else?

Teachers already have a thankless job where they are pulled in a hundred different directions by a thousand different interests, all the way being used as a scapegoat by politicians and parents who think that it's the teachers fault their kid got an F, not their kid who didn't do his homework.

Did you ever notice that achievement tracks very closely by school, and school district... not by classroom? Considering all California administrations are similarly 'hamstrung' by the inability to fire crappy teachers, do you think the schools in bad areas are just exceptionally bad/unlucky in the hiring process? Or would it just MAYBE be reasonable to think that something else was to blame?

Strange, La Jolla High School has amazing achievement scores, but Chula Vista down here doesn't. Maybe its because the kids in La Jolla are taught by their parents to value education, and the kids in Chula Vista aren't so much. Maybe failing schools are a cultural problem. Do you think firing some teachers will solve this?

Of course not. Then again, I probably just put more thought into this in the last 2 minutes then you ever have in your entire life. Just go on and make a new topic though about the 'dummycrats' or something else that you have no knowledge about. I guess you're a good troll if nothing else.

I do agree with your statement regarding how parents teach their children to value education. I grew up the same way. My parents taught me pretty much if you want to be something in life you have to go to college. That one thing they told me paid off. We live in a generation today where American Idol are the role modles of young teens. Where a rapper, actor, singer has a higher chance of getting laid then a molecular biologist or computer programmer and educated indivduals are looked at as privaledged, upitty and cocky. While these are the very same people that just took the RIGHT steps in society to ensure their success.

But, one thing that I don't like is today's schools contain students who don't want to learn and those who do. Those who don't are the same ones that eventually never learn anything and their misguided nature pulls down those who have the high potential to become something. Public school systems should have higher if not strictor academic requirements that provide expulsion to students who continuoully jerk around and cause trouble. When you filter out all these negative kids who we pay good tax dollars to TRY to educate, the one's that drop out to become low-life, rapist, murderors, drug-dealers that leach on society you are left with the pure student who wants to learn. That is what I call a dollar well spent.

 

[fskimospy]

Well, what happens to these people you expel? Chances are very good that they're going to end up doing things the community doesn't like. They may end up doing that anyway... but I just don't know if expulsion is a good idea.

If you get someone through high school with a diploma, when they decide that maybe they don't want to act like a turd 5 or 10 years later they at least have some sort of credential (however small) that they can use to get a job. High school dropout? He pretty much has no choice but crime.

But, while I don't think expulsion is a good idea... I don't have an answer for it myself. I really have absolutely no idea how to fix that problem.

 

[IronWing]

Funny, there was nothing wrong with public education until the end of segregation and poor kids started attending the same schools the kids of rich parents attended. After that, lots of affluent parents "discovered" that public education was just terrible. The proposed solutions always come down to "Give me public money to send my kid to a school w/o poor kids; that will fix the system."

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Well, what happens to these people you expel? Chances are very good that they're going to end up doing things the community doesn't like. They may end up doing that anyway... but I just don't know if expulsion is a good idea.

If you get someone through high school with a diploma, when they decide that maybe they don't want to act like a turd 5 or 10 years later they at least have some sort of credential (however small) that they can use to get a job. High school dropout? He pretty much has no choice but crime.

But, while I don't think expulsion is a good idea... I don't have an answer for it myself. I really have absolutely no idea how to fix that problem.

It's like this you know private schools always boast and brag their real good post achievement results in their students, high SAT schools, how many go to ivy league etc. etc. etc. These factors are why students do better in private schools.

1. Parents who spend the MONEY to put their kids in private schools expect their kids to do well. The kids kind of know they have to do well or face the consequences of the parents and the school.

2. Parents who send their kids to these schools are commonly educated, upright people as well.

3. Private schools are commonly gender segregated so when they start getting attracted to the opposite sex you don?t have to worry about it happening in the classroom (attention).

4. The teachers teach a smaller population with a smaller amount of problems (discipline) as mentioned above. Therefore you get a better teaching environment. Teachers I imagine make more and commonly are required to have higher credentialing and training.

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: ironwing
Funny, there was nothing wrong with public education until the end of segregation and poor kids started attending the same schools the kids of rich parents attended. After that, lots of affluent parents "discovered" that public education was just terrible. The proposed solutions always come down to "Give me public money to send my kid to a school w/o poor kids; that will fix the system."

That is what they said when they took the bible out of schools. It's a lot of different factors. And to just say it's regarding segragation is just racist.

 

[BlancoNino]

Teachers I know of make around 30-40k a year with summers off and not to mention lots of benefits. I don't see how that's much different than most college graduates with a Bachelor's degree looking for work.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Teachers I know of make around 30-40k a year with summers off and not to mention lots of benefits. I don't see how that's much different than most college graduates with a Bachelor's degree looking for work.

Wow, most teachers here start at 40k/yr. Depending on experience as well as continuing education, that can go up to 95k/yr or so.

Don't believe me?
http://www.naperville203.org/assets/NUEA%5FSalary%5FSchedule%2Epdf

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Teachers I know of make around 30-40k a year with summers off and not to mention lots of benefits. I don't see how that's much different than most college graduates with a Bachelor's degree looking for work.

Your numbers are simply wrong, and the "summer off" thing is crap. Anyone who actually knows a teacher knows that they put in WAY longer hours then your average person during the school year. Here's some actual numbers on it. The starting salary for a teacher is around $30,000 a year... which is about 25% less then a person in another field with an equal level of education. The numbers for one town are just plain irrelevant.

EDIT: I screwed up my link

 

[Moonbeam]

What the world needs now is love, sweet love
It's the only thing that there's just too little of
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No not just for some but for everyone.

Lord, we don't need another mountain,
There are mountains and hillsides enough to climb
There are oceans and rivers enough to cross,
Enough to last till the end of time.

What the world needs now is love, sweet love
It's the only thing that there's just too little of
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No, not just for some but for everyone.

Lord, we don't need another meadow
There are cornfields and wheat fields enough to grow
There are sunbeams and moonbeams enough to shine
Oh listen, lord, if you want to know.

What the world needs now is love, sweet love
It's the only thing that there's just too little of
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No, not just for some but for everyone.

No, not just for some, oh, but just for everyone.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Ten++ years ago, a teacher's union rep made the statement 'there's never been a teacher de-certified in Ontario', as if this spoke to the quality of education.

I remember thinking at the time (I was probably 13 or so) 'A province of millions of people, and tens of thousands of teachers, all human, and none of them had ever been de-certified? '

What a joke.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What the world needs now is love, sweet love
It's the only thing that there's just too little of
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No not just for some but for everyone.

Lord, we don't need another mountain,
There are mountains and hillsides enough to climb
There are oceans and rivers enough to cross,
Enough to last till the end of time.

What the world needs now is love, sweet love
It's the only thing that there's just too little of
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No, not just for some but for everyone.

Lord, we don't need another meadow
There are cornfields and wheat fields enough to grow
There are sunbeams and moonbeams enough to shine
Oh listen, lord, if you want to know.

What the world needs now is love, sweet love
It's the only thing that there's just too little of
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No, not just for some but for everyone.

No, not just for some, oh, but just for everyone.

You're shining today!

Love and carne asada tacos.

 

[Darthvoy]

I hate the teacher's union. Bunch of greedy fvcks. Did any of you guys watch that special on 20/20 regarding American publics schools?

Edit: During high school I worked in the library and saw the amount of money wasted by the administrators. In my opinion the problem is with bad teachers and administrators combined.

 

[Isla]

Whenever I read threads like this I have to laugh.

How many of YOU would make good teachers? Great ones?

I get lots of love and appreciation from my students AND their parents every day, and I only make 34K. I'd like to see just ONE of you do what I do, do it as well as I do, and accept the pay that I do.

I won't hold my breath.

 

[Isla]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Teachers I know of make around 30-40k a year with summers off and not to mention lots of benefits. I don't see how that's much different than most college graduates with a Bachelor's degree looking for work.

Your numbers are simply wrong, and the "summer off" thing is crap. Anyone who actually knows a teacher knows that they put in WAY longer hours then your average person during the school year. Here's some actual numbers on it. The starting salary for a teacher is around $30,000 a year... which is about 25% less then a person in another field with an equal level of education. The numbers for one town are just plain irrelevant.

EDIT: I screwed up my link

He's absolutely right.

One of the reasons I teach is because I can AFFORD to teach. My oldest wants to teach, and I tell her, "Well, you better marry an engineer then!".

 

[PrinceofWands]

I agree that both sides (admin and teachers) need oversight, standards, and thinning out. The unfortunate thing is that won't correct the problems because they're much deeper than that. Studies have already shown fairly conclusively that failings in education correlate most strikingly to low socio-economic status so unless you can address that you aren't going to fix lower performing schools (which are almost always in low socio-economic areas).

We need total attitude and lifestyle reformation in America. We need two parent (or guardian) households with one at home as their primary job and responsibility. We need to move away from matierialism, instant gratification, and social pandering. We need to re-establish the importance of place in our lives, especially the centrality and stability of 'home'. We need to recreate the importance of community or collective living (and yes, that can be done without losing individuality). We need education and intelligence to become respected, no, REVERED individual traits once again.

It's only after we make those larger social mindset changes that children will be programmed to succeed in education, and until they are then no system will compensate.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Well, what happens to these people you expel? Chances are very good that they're going to end up doing things the community doesn't like. They may end up doing that anyway... but I just don't know if expulsion is a good idea.

If you get someone through high school with a diploma, when they decide that maybe they don't want to act like a turd 5 or 10 years later they at least have some sort of credential (however small) that they can use to get a job. High school dropout? He pretty much has no choice but crime.

But, while I don't think expulsion is a good idea... I don't have an answer for it myself. I really have absolutely no idea how to fix that problem.

It's like this you know private schools always boast and brag their real good post achievement results in their students, high SAT schools, how many go to ivy league etc. etc. etc. These factors are why students do better in private schools.

1. Parents who spend the MONEY to put their kids in private schools expect their kids to do well. The kids kind of know they have to do well or face the consequences of the parents and the school.

2. Parents who send their kids to these schools are commonly educated, upright people as well.

3. Private schools are commonly gender segregated so when they start getting attracted to the opposite sex you don?t have to worry about it happening in the classroom (attention).

4. The teachers teach a smaller population with a smaller amount of problems (discipline) as mentioned above. Therefore you get a better teaching environment. Teachers I imagine make more and commonly are required to have higher credentialing and training.

This is really misleading. Studies have shown that once socio-economic factors are controlled for (specifically family income and living conditions) private schools are no better than public schools in achievment. That means when it comes down to it the biggest single factor in education is how wealthy your family is. When you study that phenomenon you learn that it isn't that better people become rich, but that wealth allows a lifestyle which is conducive to education. One parent is often at home full time, or if not then there is domestic help available. They can eat healthier, they have insurance, they have leisure activities, they do things as a family (because they have the time), they live in a safer environment, they're less likely to get involved in 'bad things' becaues they're less in need of those things to replace missing elements in their home life, etc.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Teachers I know of make around 30-40k a year with summers off and not to mention lots of benefits. I don't see how that's much different than most college graduates with a Bachelor's degree looking for work.

As I've mentioned MANY times; teachers work the same number of hours in a year as any other profession but they do it in 9 months. Also, most teaching positions (at least at the secondary level) now require a Bachelors for EVERY subject taught, AND a Masters, AND a teaching degree or certificate (quite often that Masters degree is combined with the certificate but the total credits are still the same).

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Teachers I know of make around 30-40k a year with summers off and not to mention lots of benefits. I don't see how that's much different than most college graduates with a Bachelor's degree looking for work.

Wow, most teachers here start at 40k/yr. Depending on experience as well as continuing education, that can go up to 95k/yr or so.

Don't believe me?
http://www.naperville203.org/assets/NUEA%5FSalary%5FSchedule%2Epdf

That's nice. Teachers in Washington with a PhD start at 40k max and don't get to 60k until about 20 years.

Don't believe me?

Yes, that's just the allocated funds, but it provides a pretty good base level. In negotiations you'll get a bit more depending on what you do (like 3000 a year if you coach debate, or that sort of thing). Of course, that's for a FTE possition. A LOT of the positions opening now are .4's or .6's, so you're not even going to make scale.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Isla
Whenever I read threads like this I have to laugh.

How many of YOU would make good teachers? Great ones?

I get lots of love and appreciation from my students AND their parents every day, and I only make 34K. I'd like to see just ONE of you do what I do, do it as well as I do, and accept the pay that I do.

I won't hold my breath.

Lots of people do. We call them 'good teachers'.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Shivetya
http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_5438779

Well of course the teacher's union would be opposed. Currently in California a teacher can be fired if they have been there less than two years. Past that an tenure protects them, requiring thousands of dollars to be wasted just to oust a rotten teacher. Some times it can take 5 years to get rid of one.

Of course the teachers claim its the adminstrators that need to be looked into.


I have a better idea, hold them both to the same standards. If more money is needed for teachers then get rid of the over abundance of adminstrative people (and the percentage of them can be very high) but also fire teachers who cannot prove their competence.

We can't fix the system if it not accountable to the students.

Along with that pay the teachers a wage that coincides with their impotance in society. Maybe we'll get a higher quality of educators.

 

[Rainsford]

Every time I hear people bitching about the low quality of public education and blaming the teachers, or the administrators, or "socialism" I have to laugh. You people are idiots. Education is a difficult job, and our teachers and administrators are being asked to do it with a ridiculously small amount of money. And you know why? Because you are a bunch of cheap bastards who expect to have your cake and eat it too. Everyone wants good education, but you sure as hell don't want to PAY for it. But it's not your fault, it must be those "greedy" teachers...what kind of crazy person wants job security and a salary above 40k when all they have is a masters degree and a desire to help your kids?

Seriously though, I'd like to see some of those virtues of modern capitalism like Google or Microsoft do their jobs with the budget of an average American school. Google does a great job with their products because they spend what it takes to hire top notch talent and give them whatever resources they need. Imagine if you put a salary cap of $40k on their engineering staff and made it so that employees had to buy their own computers if they wanted anything decent. Free market enterprise or not, I bet they wouldn't be nearly so impressive then.

This bitching about school seems rooted in the conservative myth that "accountability" and emulating the "free market" solves all your problems, without any other action needed. This is the core of "No Child Left Behind"...applying standards without applying funding. But you only have to look at Republicans' favorite government program to realize how full of crap that idea is. Our military is far and away the best in the world, better than the next 10 countries put together. Is it because we turned over control of the military to private enterprise? Or that we made them operate on a shoestring budget but demanded "higher standards"? Of course not, it's because we spent hundreds of billions of dollars to give them WHATEVER they needed to be the best. We spend more on equipment and training and support for a single soldier than many countries do on any 100 of their soldiers. And we give that soldier a support system consisting of satellites and aircraft carriers and multi-million dollar missiles and state of the art electronic warfare equipment. According to the department of education's website, they have about $1000 per student that they can spend in 2008. And we're surprised that demanding higher test scores doesn't cause them to magically materialize?

Conservatives have it right in one respect, it IS about capitalism. Only it's about something a lot more basic than they think...the golden rule of economic transactions, you get what you pay for. You think it's some sort of magic that makes public schools that have a lot of money work better and public schools in Harlem do worse? This isn't even Econ 101, it's like the stuff you pick up if you can add two digit numbers together. If we want good schools, we have to pay for them. And castigating the education system for "failing" when we're not willing to pay for them to do a good job is just stupid.