So, why wouldn't privatizing SS work in the US? Works in Chile.

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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I'd love to see some kind of transition to a private system that you could potentially opt-out of if you so choose.

This forced government run retirement insurance is crap and I don't want it and don't want to pay 12% of my salary into it any longer.

Privatization is a great idea IMO.

Yes it sure worked great before SS - when we had 90% elder poverty.

It's a GREAT idea to abandon economic security for seniors to a base income and instead to shift trillions of their dollars into Wall Street's hands.

Let's bring back the starving seniors, the *actual* result of your great plan.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
There's no way "conservatively managed" pension funds earn 9.23% annually above inflation for 30 years.

Nobody should accept such a wild claim without a great deal more explanation and proof.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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The initial ruling may never have been according to several things I've read, it was a preface statement offered by the Chief Justice at the time:



http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2469/how-can-a-corporation-be-legally-considered-a-person

Yes. A little history:

First understand that the US in the post-industrial revolution late 19th century had an insane 'pro-business culture'. The ideology, the rulings, the Supreme Court were nuts.

The world had never been through that economy and it took some adjusting, as a popular backlash built up from the early 20th century culminating in FDR.

Anyway, corporations had long fought for more rights as 'persons'; Thomas Jefferson tried to explicitly limit them in the constitution, and it did not pass.

After the 14th amendment was ratified in 1868, corporations began a constant barrage of cases arguing for it to be interpreted to count corporations as people.

They lost in case after case, but had the money to keep pushing the argument - until a case decided in 1886.

Now, why would corporations have gone to great effort on this, beside the benefit?

Because railroad representatives had participated in the drafting of the 14th amendment, and intentionally pressured to have it worded with 'persons', intending for that to be used later for this argument for corporations, unknown to the Congressmen who passed it. However, the word 'persons' had long been used, including in the constitution, to mean only natural persons.

The 14th amendment was explicitly for the interests of former second-class citizens - slaves, mostly black - but there were far MORE cases heard in the courts based on that new amendment of corporations trying to use it than were heard for any actual 'people', black, Americans.

Finally, there was one mysterious, bizarre case. One other thing to realize is that there was an unusual role with the court for its 'reporter' then. It wasn't some typist doing as they're told, really, but a much more powerful position I won't get too much into describing now, but it was a powerful position. Especially telling is that one of the most powerful industries were the railroads; this 'court reporter' was the former head of a railroad; and the case in question involved a railroad.

In this case, the Chief Justice had verbally told the lawyers not to argue the 'personhood' issue, to assume the court agreed in the arguments - but he told the reporter explicitly, and the decision showed, that the court had intentionally not made any ruling on the issue.

This reporter who wasn't on the court made a notation in the 'notes' for the case that wasn't in the ruling, about the verbal comment. But then, unfortunately, in later decisions the court began to rule on that basis with that decision as a 'precedent' of sorts, and it became actual law.

Thom Hartmann wrote a good book on this called 'Unequal Protection'. It actually covers corporate history going back to the world's first major corporation, the East India company started by Queen Elizabeth for the benefit of the nobility in England to profit around the world but not be charged for wrongs.

Looking more closely, there was likely pressure from one of the Justices, who was very closely linked to the railroads, wanting them to pay for his presidential campaigns, who had been pushing the corporatehood claim. He actually sat on both a court of appeals and the Supreme Court, and he'd rule for personhood in cases at the Appeals court that would then be appealed to the Supreme Court where he'd be reversed.

In this case, he wanted the court to rule for personhood, and he wrote a concurring opinion, to agree with the ruling on the tax issue but also complain that the court did not rule on the personhood issue, making his case how now that almost everything important in society was done by corporations, it was important to give them those rights.

The Chief Justice had left it up to the reporter whether to mention the verbal comment, since it wasn't ruled on; it's suspected this other Justice might have pushed for it.

Here's a great excerpt from Hartmann on the history of this:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2002/01/unequal-protection-theft-human-rights
 

matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
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Yes it sure worked great before SS - when we had 90% elder poverty.

It's a GREAT idea to abandon economic security for seniors to a base income and instead to shift trillions of their dollars into Wall Street's hands.

Let's bring back the starving seniors, the *actual* result of your great plan.

Oh you mean fuckin 85 years ago?
When people were a lot less off in general than today?

How about shifting dollars into the peoples hands and let them to what they wish with it? Oh no we couldn't possibly have that! Oh no! :rolleyes:

God forbid people save for their own retirement!

Your precious big government has pushed interest rates down to 0 where people can't even save their money anymore, the currency erodes in value every year, who the fuck is gonna save their money in a bank?

Yeah, lets make everyone invest in risky securities and funnel money to wall street! Brilliant!

Now because of people all the young people are forced into a shitty retirement scheme they don't want to pay for all the people going into retirement. Lets see if we get anything close to the amount we put in.

Fuck your shitty ideas that you force on to people.

I'd gladly opt-out of this forced "insurance" program. Hope they somehow get rid of it soon.
 
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ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
Yeah, lets make everyone invest in risky securities and funnel money to wall street! Brilliant!
You nailed it perfect.

Social Security is great because is encourages people to spend money since they no longer need to save it. If you put it in the bank, it rots to nothing, and if you invest it you're probably going to lose it (why the fuck do people still buy mutual funds when 110% of them can't even beat the index!?!?!?!)
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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You nailed it perfect.

Social Security is great because is encourages people to spend money since they no longer need to save it. If you put it in the bank, it rots to nothing, and if you invest it you're probably going to lose it (why the fuck do people still buy mutual funds when 110% of them can't even beat the index!?!?!?!)

It's bad enough that he has a rude, idiotic, irrational, frothing at the mouth attack against what actually works, based on ridiculous, simplistic fallacies.

But then he even argues against himself, without realizing it.

Pathetic.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
This is complaint, not a solution. Would-be privatizers are just as caught up in unreality as those who chant "Don't touch my Social Security."

In a microcosm, this is the fundamental problem with the political dialogue in the United States: Far too many incredibly stupid people.

A fundamental problem is that hacks pick an either/or attitude. Only the government can save stupid people from themselves by ruling over them or only the private sector can do X.

What incredibly stupid people do is pick a position and stick with it. There is no reason that closely managed funds can't work. The unspoken problem and the true reason it will never happen is that it takes money that the government wants out of their hands and places it elsewhere.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,585
3,796
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If SS contributions would belong to the worker, where would the funding come from to pay existing retirees and not-yet-retired people who have already paid substantial amounts into SS? Somehow, this little detail is never addressed by those who think privatizing SS is a great idea.

If only there was some way to not have a sudden switch. If only there was some term that would describe a slow switch from one system to another. Perhaps I will create such a term. I will call it 'gradual'

Perhaps a 'gradual' change (remember - that means slowly progressing) could be used to move from one system to another. Say after 5 more years the system will be changed at a rate of 5% more of SS will be moved to a privatized fund every year

Doesn't even have to be at that rate - I am just throwing it out there. Yes, some people will lose out a little. Is that fair? No. But it is also not fair that in the future people will be putting in 100% of their tax but only getting 80% back. The goal is to minimize the issues now AND later. It seems both sides are oblivious to any compromise.

But anyway - I have a way to fix SS with almost no fuss. Just raise the goddamn age to recieve benefits. Use the same 'gradual' change mentioned before. After 5 years the retirement age will be raised 1 year every 2 years until it reaches the average life expectancy*. Then peg to life expectancy. You want to retire earlier - save your own damn money.

*Just examples of numbers to use
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
You know why privatization is popular ?

The same reason 85% of people think they're above average.

That's a helluva reason to throw away a successful retirement program.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,585
3,796
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You know why privatization is popular ?

Its popular because people see how much it costs and many are now seeing that while they pay in 100% they will only get 80% out. They tend to view that as not successful
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
You know why privatization is popular ?

The same reason 85% of people think they're above average.

That's a helluva reason to throw away a successful retirement program.

It's popular because people ought not be forced into funding their own retirement.
 

Axon

Platinum Member
Sep 25, 2003
2,541
1
76
Don't overspend and put a lot into savings each paycheck. You'll be fine. I can save almost $1500 a month...except when new CPUs launch. :p

As to SS: I'd love to see it cut, but it will never happen.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
If only there was some way to not have a sudden switch. If only there was some term that would describe a slow switch from one system to another. Perhaps I will create such a term. I will call it 'gradual'

Perhaps a 'gradual' change (remember - that means slowly progressing) could be used to move from one system to another. Say after 5 more years the system will be changed at a rate of 5% more of SS will be moved to a privatized fund every year

Doesn't even have to be at that rate - I am just throwing it out there. Yes, some people will lose out a little. Is that fair? No. But it is also not fair that in the future people will be putting in 100% of their tax but only getting 80% back. The goal is to minimize the issues now AND later. It seems both sides are oblivious to any compromise.

But anyway - I have a way to fix SS with almost no fuss. Just raise the goddamn age to recieve benefits. Use the same 'gradual' change mentioned before. After 5 years the retirement age will be raised 1 year every 2 years until it reaches the average life expectancy*. Then peg to life expectancy. You want to retire earlier - save your own damn money.

*Just examples of numbers to use

Actually, SS is easy to fix: Slowly change the COLA formula; slowly increase the age of eligibility; mildly means-test benefits; slowly increase the wage limit subject to SS taxes. No individual change needs to be rapid or drastic.

SS is easy. Medicare is the 400-pound gorilla.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
Actually, SS is easy to fix: Slowly change the COLA formula; slowly increase the age of eligibility; mildly means-test benefits; slowly increase the wage limit subject to SS taxes. No individual change needs to be rapid or drastic.

SS is easy. Medicare is the 400-pound gorilla.
-force schools to admit more med/nurse students
-wages drop like a rock due to surplus of doctors (case study: people who work in chem labs with a 4 year degree are paid less than non-union unskilled construction workers because so many people have a chem degree)
-save $trillions$
-win

Before anyone brings up the notion that we should only take the brightest people into medicine, let me remind all of you that doctors are retards. Go in with any problem, they look at it and say "if it doesn't get better, come back tomorrow." A mexican janitor could do that. Llámeme mañana, cuando su condición empeora.

Medicare could also be fixed by making all drugs OTC. Instead of going to the doctor a billion times per year to fill the same damn prescription at an astronomical cost, just buy the medication without seeing a doctor. I'm not a senior but I've been taking the same medication for about 4 years and I still need to fuck around with doctors every single time. It wastes my time, it wastes the time of other patients who need to wait behind me, and it wastes the doctors time.
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
1,307
0
0
There's no way "conservatively managed" pension funds earn 9.23% annually above inflation for 30 years.

Nobody should accept such a wild claim without a great deal more explanation and proof.

Took 5 pages but someone finally asked the real question that needs answered. IMO
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
Its popular because people see how much it costs and many are now seeing that while they pay in 100% they will only get 80% out. They tend to view that as not successful

That has never happened in the aggregate. Many people get a lot more than they put in. a LOT more.

Something that actually DID happen is, some people lost more than half their wealth from trusting Wall Street.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
SS encourages people not to save money. Just end all SS now.

People already dont pay health insurance to save money.

Maybe people should be reminded that they have a right to starve to death.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,585
3,796
126
That has never happened in the aggregate. Many people get a lot more than they put in. a LOT more.

Just because it has never happened doesn't mean there isn't an issue. SS very clearly needs to be fixed because currently by the time I retire I will either:
A) Live to or past my life expectency and get paid less than I put in (Break even is 1.5 years prior to life epxectancy)
B) Die early and get more than I put in

But the general opinion of older people seems to be that it is fine because they get more than they put in. How old are you again? :p
 
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Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,585
3,796
126
Actually, SS is easy to fix: Slowly change the COLA formula; slowly increase the age of eligibility; mildly means-test benefits; slowly increase the wage limit subject to SS taxes. No individual change needs to be rapid or drastic.

SS is easy. Medicare is the 400-pound gorilla.

I would actually like to see it pegged to life excetancy. That way we don't have to revisit this issue if it suddenly jumps

I agree that SS should be easier to fix than we are making it. If we can't agree to fix this I am worried whats going to happen with Medicare
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
Maybe people should be reminded that they have a right to starve to death.
lol human psychology fail. If I need to choose between starving to death or stabbing you and taking your wallet, I would totally stab the hell out of you. Most humans would. We are creatures of survival, and we'll take out other humans to survive if that's what it comes to.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
So, uhh, what happens to people in Chile who outlive their money? Do their fund managers send them a cyanide pill with the last payment, or would that cut into the profit margin too much?

You seem to have no idea on how investments work, but here is a clue... It would be your money, and your survivor's money in your death.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
That has never happened in the aggregate. Many people get a lot more than they put in. a LOT more.

Something that actually DID happen is, some people lost more than half their wealth from trusting Wall Street.

No they don't. Did you not note the rate of return comparisons between SSI and private investments?
 

JimW1949

Senior member
Mar 22, 2011
244
0
0
I don't understand why you would want to push back the retirement age closer to the life expectancy age. One of the main ideas for people retiring is to open up jobs for younger employees. Also, people should be able to retire at a point in their lives where they can still do things and enjoy their retirement years instead of working right up till the day they die.

Besides that, a lot of people here object to paying everyone a livable wage. How are people supposed to save for retirement when they can't can't even make a living now?