So, why wouldn't privatizing SS work in the US? Works in Chile.

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Paul Krugman comments on Chile's system

Think Social Security Myths Are Dead? Think Again.

By Paul Krugman Jul 05 2010

The biggest threats to Social Security in the United States these days are zombies — that is, arguments that have been debunked but keep coming back and confusing matters again and again.

Five years ago, privatizing Social Security was all the rage here, and for a while conservatives were in love with Chile — that land of the wonderfully perfect retirement system that proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, private accounts were the way to go. During former President George W. Bush’s campaign to partially privatize Social Security, he often cited its shining example when explaining how to cure the system’s ills. Then some people started looking closely and discovered that the Chilean system actually had big problems — including very high administrative costs — and that Chileans actually hated the thing. The effort quickly fizzled in the United States. Then in 2008, President Michelle Bachelet, using billions in revenues saved from copper sales, launched pension reforms and supplemented Chile’s troubled private system, finally putting an end to the argument.

Now those zombies are stirring again in the United States. Earlier this year the Obama administration established an 18-member commission of Serious People, led by former Senator Alan K. Simpson, a Republican from Wyoming, to develop plans to bring the federal budget under control. Mr. Simpson quickly resurrected the old nonsense about how Social Security will be bankrupt as soon as payroll tax revenues fall short of benefit payments, maybe even this year. And never mind about the quarter-century of surpluses that started in the ‘80s.

We went through all this back in 2005, but let’s repeat it yet again.

The Social Security program is funded by a dedicated tax. There are two ways to look at this. First, you can simply view the program as part of the federal budget, and the dedicated tax as just a formality.There’s a lot to be said for that point of view: benefits are a federal cost, payroll taxes a source of revenue, and they don’t have anything to do with each other. Or you can look at the program in isolation. And as a practical matter, this has considerable significance: as long as Social Security still has money in its trust fund, it doesn’t need new legislation to keep paying benefits.

But you can’t have it both ways.

You can’t say that Social Security ran surpluses for 25 years, but that it didn’t mean anything because it’s just part of the federal government’s budget, then turn around and claim that when payroll taxes fall short of benefits, Social Security is broke, even though there’s lots of money in the trust fund.

What happens when payroll receipts fall short of benefits? Nothing.

The checks just keep going out, drawn from the surplus.

So why has the co-chair of the commission resurrected these lies? Either because he isn’t willing to deal with the public honestly or zombies have eaten his brain. In either case, there’s no point in continuing this farce.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
So, uhh, what happens to people in Chile who outlive their money?

Some people who are not stupid (unlike you), have figured out things like "annuities". There are lots of investment vehicles that allow for a certain amount of income over a lifetime, regardless of how old someone lives to be. People could get guaranteed returns on their money better than what SS is offering today.
 

sMiLeYz

Platinum Member
Feb 3, 2003
2,696
0
76
Why fix what ain't broken? Social Security is not in trouble, it's ran surpluses every year, it has it's own dedicated tax, and it legally can't take in money from federal budget.

It's probably the most successful social program in the United States for the past 75 years
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Some people who are not stupid (unlike you), have figured out things like "annuities". There are lots of investment vehicles that allow for a certain amount of income over a lifetime, regardless of how old someone lives to be. People could get guaranteed returns on their money better than what SS is offering today.

Aww.. You're so cute when reduced to sputtering ad homs, and when making the usual faith based assertions so favored by fringe-whacks.

Better returns? Backed by the full faith and credit of the US govt, or by Wall St shysters, kinda like the returns on MBS bought during the bubble? Some of us weren't born yesterday.

As usual, Krugman with his hackery and drivel that somehow (surprise!) always seems to come up with more government as the answer to everything. Spare us.

And attacking the messenger, too! I'm nominating you for the triple crown of empty libertopian raving, as opposed to actual argument, because you haven't actually presented any of the latter.

Would you prefer to chant Ron Paul! Ron Paul! Ron Paul! or just USA! USA! USA!? Your choice, really- either will fill the space between your ears, allow you to express your beliefs in the foaming at the mouth glassy-eyed way so favored by Righties...
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
As has been said the government stole our SS money. It doesn't exist to put into a different system.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
Aww.. You're so cute when reduced to sputtering ad homs, and when making the usual faith based assertions

An annuity is a "faith based assertion"? Only to the mathematics challenged. Nothing magical about it, there are plenty of vehicles to ensure lifelong income streams. They already exist and people use them all the time.

Better returns? Backed by the full faith and credit of the US govt,

It could be backed by whatever you want. The government could simply guarantee a minimum level of returns if the person invests in "approved" investments. In case you hadn't noticed, when wall street decided to drive the train off the cliff not to long ago, government money was used to bail it out anyway.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Privatizing SS is a risk that doesn't make any sense realistically when SS isn't meant to have great returns, it is meant as a sure-fire supplemental option for those who don't/can't save. Sure-fire money, as in no risk of it being lost. So any investment that claims to return 9%+ has significantly more risk than U.S. T-bills, in other words. If you want great returns then invest the max in your 401K, invest in an index fund or put money in an actively managed fund with better returns (but more risk).
 

tydas

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2000
1,284
0
76
Isn't this really a moral question as well...

group 1: F*** them, they did not handle thier money right then off to the street you go! (by the way, keep them to hell out of my town)

group 2: ok, lets all pitch in to help the poor sap..
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Some of us weren't born yesterday.

I pay a dedicated tax on top of everything else for SS. Why can't what I've payed in be taken and put into a managed fund? I mean it's there right?

Oh yeah, the government took our full faith and ran up it's credit with our money.

Those of us who weren't born yesterday are as powerless as those who were.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Just stop SS now. Also quite paying child care to sluts. If you have a baby, it is your problem.
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
4
81
So wait, we're suposed to look to Chile for our SS program, but we're not suposed to look at any of a number of first world countries for our healthcare?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
If we quit paying for child care maybe a lot of Mexicans will not cross the border illegally. We did not force them to come here, so we dont owe them anything.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
So wait, we're suposed to look to Chile for our SS program, but we're not suposed to look at any of a number of first world countries for our healthcare?


SS programs are relatively simple. Health care is not. Further, health care reform isn't on the table in any meaningful sense. Making political hay is.

Politicians will want control of the system. Bureaucrats will make sure regulations are followed. We'll be screwed. This isn't France. It's the home of The Two Parties.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Because Americans as a whole are dumb. If they stopped taking SS and just said invest as you see fit. Most Americans would not invest it. They would just spend that money on crap. Then when they are old with no retirement we will have to take care of them on the tax payers dime again. SS is a neccessity in my opinion. The problem comes when you dip into SS for pet projects.

All the dipping did was speed up the inevitable. But you are right... people will not save because they know they have the government to bail them out... welfare, food stamps, etc... why save for retirement?
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
So wait, we're suposed to look to Chile for our SS program, but we're not suposed to look at any of a number of first world countries for our healthcare?

Healthcare requires people to dedicate a part of thier lives to learning medicine. Not everyone can do it. We cannot expect these people to practice medicine for little or no pay. When a doctor sees a medicare patient it is basically working for little or no pay... imagine that expanded.

With SS we do not need a group of people like doctors and nurses. So something like comparing Chile's SS system is more apt to work versus implementing government run healthcare because it works so well in some European country.
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
4
81
Healthcare requires people to dedicate a part of thier lives to learning medicine. Not everyone can do it. We cannot expect these people to practice medicine for little or no pay. When a doctor sees a medicare patient it is basically working for little or no pay... imagine that expanded.

With SS we do not need a group of people like doctors and nurses. So something like comparing Chile's SS system is more apt to work versus implementing government run healthcare because it works so well in some European country.

So you're saying the financial sector requires no one of skill. They should probably all be making minimum wage instead of hundreds of thousands.
 

bpatters69

Senior member
Aug 25, 2004
314
1
81
"The gov't has determined you're too stupid to make your own financial decisions."

That may very well be true for a certain percentage of the population. Unfortunately, that same percentage of the population would probably make the most noise and would elect politicians who would somehow reward their stupidity. My problem with SS is the same as others have stated - I don't expect to see $1 from SS when I get ready to retire. Then again, I have a very different attitude towards my retirement - my retirement is just that...MINE. I am responsible for what happens to me and I will not rely on Govco or some other lunatic to determine how much $$ I will need when I retire.

I feel sorry for those who think that SS will be there so support them in their Golden years. To be fair, SS was billed as a system that would fully support retirees upon its inception. The problem is that people are living longer and we have a huge portion of the population that is about to retire who will gut SS of most of its funding - the Baby Boomers. Sadly and I base this statement on anecdotal evidence but Baby Boomers were not savers.. they are expecting to live and work forever.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
The gov't has determined you're too stupid to make your own financial decisions.

(and the sad part is, for a lot of Americans, the gov't is probably right)

My employer has decided this as well. I asked HR if I had any control over the way the pension was invested and the answer was no :\

(probably for the best. half of P&N would invest their pension in gold, lose all of it, then bitch about it)
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
So you're saying the financial sector requires no one of skill. They should probably all be making minimum wage instead of hundreds of thousands.

Either you are being purposefully obtuse or are genuinely ignorant. You decide to pick something that wasn't said then make an absurd conclusion.

Is this a gag?
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
4
81
Either you are being purposefully obtuse or are genuinely ignorant. You decide to pick something that wasn't said then make an absurd conclusion.

Is this a gag?

I compared managing finances to healthcare. People retorted saying Medical care is too complicated and takes skill. Implying that these private institution that would manage SS must not take skill or dedication therefore nothing could go wrong with privatizing it like chile... You don't see the stupidity in that? What am I supposed to say besides a gag after that?
 

ConstipatedVigilante

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2006
7,670
1
0
Why fix what ain't broken? Social Security is not in trouble, it's ran surpluses every year, it has it's own dedicated tax, and it legally can't take in money from federal budget.

It's probably the most successful social program in the United States for the past 75 years

Tell that to a Finance professor and prepare to be laughed out of the room.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
I compared managing finances to healthcare. People retorted saying Medical care is too complicated and takes skill. Implying that these private institution that would manage SS must not take skill or dedication therefore nothing could go wrong with privatizing it like chile... You don't see the stupidity in that? What am I supposed to say besides a gag after that?

I think he means the reform is simple. Privatizing SS is easy as hell. All you do is say "it's now private" and boom it's now private. Let the free market deal with it, it's no longer the government's problem.
Taking healthcare from private to public is very complicated and involves the government acquiring a lot of stuff they don't have.

It's the difference between selling a car and buying a car. Selling a car is easy - you have a car and you sell it. Buying a car is difficult - there are 20 different cars you could buy, there are different financing options, lease options, warranty options, how big should the car be, how much power should it have, what kind of transmission do you want, should you get the nav package yes or no, and it goes on like that.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Why fix what ain't broken? Social Security is not in trouble, it's ran surpluses every year, it has it's own dedicated tax, and it legally can't take in money from federal budget.

What's your basis for that assertion?

It's probably the most successful social program in the United States for the past 75 years

Madoff's scheme worked for a while, too.