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Discussion So why is the US still using Coal for energy?

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GobBluth

Senior member
Sep 18, 2012
703
45
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Per the title why is my Country burning the very dirty and filthy fossil known as Coal when there are much cheaper and cleaner sources of energy available? Other Nations are heavily investing in renewable power?

Our senile POTUS is trying to bring coal back despite the experts saying that coal is a lost cause?
It freaks me out knowing that the Earth under my feet looks like swiss cheese thanks to the decades and decades of mining that has gone on. thousands of miles of rock and dirt extracted right out from under us.
 

Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
8,754
2,669
136
It freaks me out knowing that the Earth under my feet looks like swiss cheese thanks to the decades and decades of mining that has gone on. thousands of miles of rock and dirt extracted right out from under us.
Don't worry open pit mining will fix that.
 
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Reactions: thilanliyan
Jun 18, 2000
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You must have missed where I been saying coal IS BAD, but wind and solar ISNT as good as they try to make them out to be, thanks for proving my point more, and still no one has told me what can be done about non sunny windy days, how do these two supposed to produce the much needed power fur ur phones? Wind and solar just cannot produce steady, all the time power needed all the time no matter what that people seem to think they can for they dont go outside and notice it isnt sunny or windy, just that they been told these are the saving grace, when they are flawed. Hence, that no one has brought up like I did, if you live near the ocean need to look into tidal generators for power. OH and you forgot my questioning about the hazards and waste to produce them too, not just when they wear out. Check out how they are made, or if I get time, I wil find a link, so you see, they are hazardous to produce as well as get rid of ;)

So ready to put me down, but no one has told me how these are going to make the power needed on no sunny and non windy days, and the fact they are not 100% eco friendly either as people are led to believe, I want better if we are going to get off fossil fuels or nuke that can work all day long no matter the weather out side, or which way your house faces the sun, or the non eco friendly batteries needed to be used, and replaced, to go with your roof solar, or if it is cloudy, or windless, and the power runs out of them, how do you then run your house since you cut the cord and got rid of coal and nuke in favor of them.

Kinda like elctric cars, go 250 miles in them, and hope they dont run out on the road, or there is a charging place near by, but wait 6+ hours for the battery to charge and do 250+ miles again, when it take 5 minutes to put gas in my car, get 300+ miles per tank, and I keep going pretty much break free. Not everyone has family near them where 250 is just fine, mine are all over the usa, and much more then 250+ miles away, and I dont really feel like going 250 miles, and then waiting 6 hours or so for my $60K car to charge, when I paid $12K for the one I got and can just keep putting fuel in it and go pretty much non stop to get to them. Its flawed, but we are told they do sooo much bad for the eco, when a modern car hardly puts anything out it but water as the byproduct, when cows are MUCCCCCCCCH worse then a car will ever be, but then too Im still going to have my burgers for breakfast, lunch, and dinner :D

So before we get rid of something that YES, is bad for the eco, we need something that works all the time non stop as well without fail, and if we are to bitch about byproducts made from it, then what ever replaces it, needs to last long, not cost a arm and leg, and is MUCH less on the waste scope of things too, or ur kids are going to throw a fit in 30 years saying they are wasteful every 20-25 years being tossed in landfills when worn out, and need to be like the flintstones with push cars, and stomach guts from dead cows for grocery bags. Hell on that topic, when I was growing up I remember the government trying to use us kids to "save the trees" and dont use paper bags at the grocery stores, and now they want to do away with them in favor for the paper bags again, make up ur minds dangit :p
I think the answer to the OP's question in a nutshell is propaganda, like above wall of text.

I sincerely wish someone realize how stupid it is to compare coal and wind as polluters. But sadly the ignorant and easily swayed will simply absorb the misinformation as gospel.

In a single (1!) year the U.S. generates 130 million tons of toxic coal ash. And to the poster above that's the same as 700 thousand tons of windmill blades in twenty (20!) years. That's 0.001% of the waste. That, for all intents and purposes, is zero waste. None.
 
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Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,297
1,222
136
I thought nearly all coal powered plants in USA converted to natural gas a long time ago...? I believe the one near me converted decades ago.
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,478
3,078
126
I agree with solar to a point for if you cant direct the panels as the sun moves, they are not all that efficient, and ontop of that having to replace them about every 10 years or so with new, between stationary, and useless if its cloudy, having to replace, how much of the planet are you really saving in the manufacture of them as well, that cannot be all that clean to produce with no waste in doing so.

If it didnt cost a bundle to get them to track the sun, worked while cloudy out, didnt cause waste to produce, didnt need to be replaced that often, had to use lead batteries to store energy for cloudy days (god forbid it stays cloudy for days and waste causing batteries die, leaving me with no power at all :( ), and there was no wind out there either to move my wind powered fans, which cost a bundle, and have blades that need to be replaced, and there is a bunch of waste produced to make the blades as well, and didnt kill the birds, some of which are endangered, Id be all for it all :p

Kinda damned if you do or not, and which is the lesser of all evils. Coal is bad, but so is producing the solar panels and need replacing way to often, and wind generators in making of them and especially the blades for they more at over 100mph, and because of the wind going across the blades, and weight, the composites they are made of cause wastes thats harmful. And they kill the crap out of birds :O OH and not to mention when the brakes go out and they explode.

If its not windy, or sunny, how you gonna make power? And if it goes for days, them batteries your using thats bad for the environment are gonna run out, and then what too? Im all for it, but I dont see either of them to be the saving grace they are all out there trying to make them to be. Im not too happy either about using coal, or nuke, but what u gonna do for no wind, no sun, and have to track the sun, and have a but load of them all to do the same as coal or nuke, makes them just as bad, but with coal and nuke it can be sunny, cloudy, rainy, windy, no wind, and still produce the same amount of power all day long.

Is there anything else out there other then sun and wind to make power that doesnt rely on it and is waste free to produce? I know you can use water powered with a dam which I think is the cleanest power to produce and make, but there isnt enough of them, or places to put them to take over all the other forms.

Then you got tidal powered, like wind, but the blades move with the tide, but still hazardous to make with the special blades, and construction of the units, and still have to be replaced now and again, and hate to think of what they kill in the ocean with the blades like wind and birds.
Do you have any links to back up your assertions???
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,478
3,078
126
I think the answer to the OP's question in a nutshell is propaganda, like above wall of text.

I sincerely wish someone realize how stupid it is to compare coal and wind as polluters. But sadly the ignorant and easily swayed will simply absorb the misinformation as gospel.

In a single (1!) year the U.S. generates 130 million tons of toxic coal ash. And to the poster above that's the same as 700 thousand tons of windmill blades in twenty (20!) years. That's 0.001% of the waste. That, for all intents and purposes, is zero waste. None.
No links to back up your assertions?
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,132
796
126
Do you have any links to back up your assertions???
Search YouTube for "solar thunderf00t" and "solar EEVBlog" if you would like to hear experts on the subject (scientist Phil Mason and engineer Dave Jones) say everything you just quoted him saying... with math.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,478
3,078
126
I agree with solar to a point for if you cant direct the panels as the sun moves, they are not all that efficient, and ontop of that having to replace them about every 10 years or so with new, between stationary, and useless if its cloudy, having to replace, how much of the planet are you really saving in the manufacture of them as well, that cannot be all that clean to produce with no waste in doing so.

If it didnt cost a bundle to get them to track the sun, worked while cloudy out, didnt cause waste to produce, didnt need to be replaced that often, had to use lead batteries to store energy for cloudy days (god forbid it stays cloudy for days and waste causing batteries die, leaving me with no power at all :( ), and there was no wind out there either to move my wind powered fans, which cost a bundle, and have blades that need to be replaced, and there is a bunch of waste produced to make the blades as well, and didnt kill the birds, some of which are endangered, Id be all for it all :p

Kinda damned if you do or not, and which is the lesser of all evils. Coal is bad, but so is producing the solar panels and need replacing way to often, and wind generators in making of them and especially the blades for they more at over 100mph, and because of the wind going across the blades, and weight, the composites they are made of cause wastes thats harmful. And they kill the crap out of birds :O OH and not to mention when the brakes go out and they explode.

If its not windy, or sunny, how you gonna make power? And if it goes for days, them batteries your using thats bad for the environment are gonna run out, and then what too? Im all for it, but I dont see either of them to be the saving grace they are all out there trying to make them to be. Im not too happy either about using coal, or nuke, but what u gonna do for no wind, no sun, and have to track the sun, and have a but load of them all to do the same as coal or nuke, makes them just as bad, but with coal and nuke it can be sunny, cloudy, rainy, windy, no wind, and still produce the same amount of power all day long.

Is there anything else out there other then sun and wind to make power that doesnt rely on it and is waste free to produce? I know you can use water powered with a dam which I think is the cleanest power to produce and make, but there isnt enough of them, or places to put them to take over all the other forms.

Then you got tidal powered, like wind, but the blades move with the tide, but still hazardous to make with the special blades, and construction of the units, and still have to be replaced now and again, and hate to think of what they kill in the ocean with the blades like wind and birds.
I referring to funboy6942......no links! Since it was his post I am asking hin to back up his post......
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,478
3,078
126
Read my previous post
I was referring to funboy`s post earlier....my bad!
But the way this goes is you make an asseretion and are called on the assertion -- it is up to you to provide links....not for me to do your research!
I was not asking you for links! Now funboy is another matter....
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,478
3,078
126
Search YouTube for "solar thunderf00t" and "solar EEVBlog" if you would like to hear experts on the subject (scientist Phil Mason and engineer Dave Jones) say everything you just quoted him saying... with math.
Why? I am not the one who mde the assertions that fanboy made. Thus it is up to him to back those assertions up with links....not me! It is up to him to edjmacate us....
 

funboy6942

Lifer
Nov 13, 2001
14,791
163
106
49
I did post links where they are hitting birds, how often they need to be replaced, how they are made and how they are not eco friendly to make. I dont have links in that reply, but in another one I did poroduce links off google that anyone can put in what I said and get the answer for and edumacate themselves too.

As for not being efficient on the roof vs tracking uniting on poles, I dont think I needed to prove that for you dont need to be that smart to know if they dont face the sun, they dont work all that great, hence why roof mounted ones will never be as good as ones that track the sun as it moves across the sky. If your roof doesnt face the sun all that great they just wont work all that great. And really, do I need to prove that if it isnt windy, or its cloudy, they just dont work and produce power?

And I have to say this again so you understand, Im not against these units. Its just they are not as great as the government makes them out to be, they produce waste to make, keeping them going, and have, IMO, a short life span to have to make blades or panels to keep them working, and for solar, every 25 years, will have to replace the units on the roof, and at that point the electronics too for there will be better, more efficiant units too, producing waste as you throw all this stuff away. And your not the only one throwing out this crap, everyone else is too every 25 years or so, filling up land fills with e-waste, and between doing that, vs coal or nuke right now, which is really better at this moment? I want to get rid of coal and nuke power, but this just isnt the saving grace the government, IMO, is making them out to be sooooo clean to use, and waste free pretty much, they are not, and dont work when non cloudy, or not windy, when a coal and nuke plant can keep chugging out power.

And lets not forget about the led acid batteries that need to be changed out every 5-10 years, and a bunch of them, or lipo batteries for that matter, how much waste you think all the people in the usa will be making throwing them away, or the manufacture of them, and mining needed, and vehicles chugging out pollution digging the crap out of the ground, and plants to make that stuff???

If thats not good enough for you, lmk what you need me to find a link to and Ill find it and put it up if you dont understand.
 

funboy6942

Lifer
Nov 13, 2001
14,791
163
106
49
This guys panels have been hit, needing replacement (waste), in 6 years a switch's plastic has gone bad letting water in, ruining his switch needing replacement (waste), and I didnt think of this stuff going bad too for I was just posting stuff if nothing goes bad and just replacing every 25 years or so.


Ive yet to watch more of his video, but saw this and wanted to link it up to show this stuff going bad in just 6 years, but if you get rid of the plants, and this stuff breaks producing no power. And like me, if forced into this stuff, my roof doesnt face the sun, and if Im forced to put them uup anyway, I cant, Im broke, cant afford it, and cant afford to have it fixed, cost is waaaay to much for me.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,298
4,198
146
I did post links where they are hitting birds, how often they need to be replaced, how they are made and how they are not eco friendly to make. I dont have links in that reply, but in another one I did poroduce links off google that anyone can put in what I said and get the answer for and edumacate themselves too.

As for not being efficient on the roof vs tracking uniting on poles, I dont think I needed to prove that for you dont need to be that smart to know if they dont face the sun, they dont work all that great, hence why roof mounted ones will never be as good as ones that track the sun as it moves across the sky. If your roof doesnt face the sun all that great they just wont work all that great. And really, do I need to prove that if it isnt windy, or its cloudy, they just dont work and produce power?

And I have to say this again so you understand, Im not against these units. Its just they are not as great as the government makes them out to be, they produce waste to make, keeping them going, and have, IMO, a short life span to have to make blades or panels to keep them working, and for solar, every 25 years, will have to replace the units on the roof, and at that point the electronics too for there will be better, more efficiant units too, producing waste as you throw all this stuff away. And your not the only one throwing out this crap, everyone else is too every 25 years or so, filling up land fills with e-waste, and between doing that, vs coal or nuke right now, which is really better at this moment? I want to get rid of coal and nuke power, but this just isnt the saving grace the government, IMO, is making them out to be sooooo clean to use, and waste free pretty much, they are not, and dont work when non cloudy, or not windy, when a coal and nuke plant can keep chugging out power.

And lets not forget about the led acid batteries that need to be changed out every 5-10 years, and a bunch of them, or lipo batteries for that matter, how much waste you think all the people in the usa will be making throwing them away, or the manufacture of them, and mining needed, and vehicles chugging out pollution digging the crap out of the ground, and plants to make that stuff???

If thats not good enough for you, lmk what you need me to find a link to and Ill find it and put it up if you dont understand.
Yeah, that shit creates waste. That's a known component. Coal, gas, and petroleum products create several orders of magnitude more waste. Is that clear?

Choosing to not take a better path because it isn't perfect is foolish.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,298
4,198
146
This guys panels have been hit, needing replacement (waste), in 6 years a switch's plastic has gone bad letting water in, ruining his switch needing replacement (waste), and I didnt think of this stuff going bad too for I was just posting stuff if nothing goes bad and just replacing every 25 years or so.


Ive yet to watch more of his video, but saw this and wanted to link it up to show this stuff going bad in just 6 years, but if you get rid of the plants, and this stuff breaks producing no power. And like me, if forced into this stuff, my roof doesnt face the sun, and if Im forced to put them uup anyway, I cant, Im broke, cant afford it, and cant afford to have it fixed, cost is waaaay to much for me.
1574872619756.png
That is not normal wear and tear, that was damage caused by something. If I were to guess, I'd say user error.

Like anything else, solar panels and their associated systems require routine maintenance and at minimum, observation. In the case of this thing, he probably should have taken an extra step and ensured that housing was properly sealed and/or covered if it was going to be exposed to weather.
 

funboy6942

Lifer
Nov 13, 2001
14,791
163
106
49
Tracking is up to 40% more efficient, but they claim, if you have the space, and it faces the sun on ur roof, to make up for it to just add more panels (more waste) to make up for it. But as I said, tracking is a more effective way to go if you go solar, but still either of them will not work on a non sunny day and no sun to get power from :p

 

funboy6942

Lifer
Nov 13, 2001
14,791
163
106
49
Yeah, that shit creates waste. That's a known component. Coal, gas, and petroleum products create several orders of magnitude more waste. Is that clear?

Choosing to not take a better path because it isn't perfect is foolish.

Ok, but my point is is it better?? It doesnt work if it isnt sunny or windy out. You will need batteries, there is waste there to consider. You need to consider also the mining involved for the batteries need in your home or at the plant, and if at the plant will have to have a butt load of batteries. You need fuel/eco killing chugging huge diesel machinery digging out the material needed for them batteries, and what is needed to make this stuff, so need to add that stuff into the wates these make vs what waste we make with what we got now.

And am I folish in if we are going to get rid of what we are using now, vs this stuff that is FLAWED, for it doesnt work all the time no matter what or the weather, and Im being told I must use this flawed stuff no matter what when I cannot afford to do so, or the up keep to keep them going, and replacement every 25 years, thats way too soo IMO for we been using coal and nuke for more then 25 years with no problems other then the waste, OF WHICH, these are not all as waste free as we are being pumped and told they are, and they are FLAWED, for they dont work all the time no matter what.

If your going to replace this stuff, IMO, it needs to work all the time, be close to 100% waste free not only to make to the power, but to make the units themselves as well. And they need to last more then 25 years before needing replacement, because the blades wear out, or the panels begin to die out for they will not continue to work.

Choosing a flawed better path for your told its soooooo clean, and it isnt between waste produced to make the tech, or mine the tech needed so the tech will work, and then you need to be replace often costing more money in the long run, probably less if you just keep paying your bill you got now in the 25 year span, is flawed. I dont like the propaganda involved in this stuff making people think it the king shit of all shit, when it wont work all the time, and its producing waste too, maybe not all that much, but from what Ive read and people say, its waste for the blades, or the panels, but what about the hazardous waste in the batteries that need to be replaced every 5-10 years or so. What about the pollution made by the stuff mining this crap out for the batteries, or the production of the blades, the plants pollution made making this crap too, ADD ALL that up in conjunction with the waste your going to make as every person in the usa is tossing this stuff out in the trash for new ones all the freaking time, is that really more then a coal or nuke plant makes, or as little as they claim its to make vs the latter that will work all the time unless they catch fire, melt down, or you dont pay ur bill?

I want clean energy, but it has to be CLEAN, clean it producing, clean to make it, and clean to get rid of in recycling 100% of. Untill then, because I need energy for everything in my house and life, I want them to stop lying to me saying this is soooooo much better then what we have because it clean clean clean, I dont like being lied to, or have to pay all the time for something on my roof because you say I need to when I cannot afford it, and like my bill just fine for constant power I dont have to do shit to to keep it going, or have to worry about the weather and if Im going to run out of power because of the shit on my roof. I want it to just work, I pay a bill, and it works.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,298
4,198
146
Ok, but my point is is it better??
Yes, it is better. By a longshot. Even beyond the direct cost of deployment of a solar/wind farm ($) vs a coal plant ($$$), and constant mining for fuel ($), you've got oodles of externalities in the form of pollution and their associated affects on both the environment and humanity.
You need to consider also the mining involved for the batteries need in your home or at the plant, and if at the plant will have to have a butt load of batteries.
As opposed to the mining for fuel for other plants?
And am I folish in if we are going to get rid of what we are using now, vs this stuff that is FLAWED, for it doesnt work all the time no matter what or the weather, and Im being told I must use this flawed stuff no matter what when I cannot afford to do so, or the up keep to keep them going, and replacement every 25 years, thats way too soo IMO for we been using coal and nuke for more then 25 years with no problems other then the waste, OF WHICH, these are not all as waste free as we are being pumped and told they are, and they are FLAWED, for they dont work all the time no matter what.
Dude, come down off the ledge. Nobody is instituting a law stating that you, personally, have to buy solar panels for your property. There's a huge groundswell of community solar projects across the nation happening right now, I'm willing to put a fiver down that if I knew where you lived, I could find one that you could pay instead of whatever your current power company has (assuming they aren't already on renewables!)

You seem to have this idea that if the sun isn't shining, you don't have power. That's what batteries are for. Why are you complaining about the 'cost' of batteries while also complaining that solar/wind are flawed because of clouds/lack of wind? You're answering your own arguments.
If your going to replace this stuff, IMO, it needs to work all the time, be close to 100% waste free not only to make to the power, but to make the units themselves as well. And they need to last more then 25 years before needing replacement, because the blades wear out, or the panels begin to die out for they will not continue to work.
No, they don't, that's lunacy. If you let perfection stand in the way of progress we'll literally end up with an uninhabitable planet.
I dont like the propaganda involved in this stuff
You're literally spouting anti-green energy propaganda. You've been fed it by some fuck in the pocket of the fossil fuel industry and you're hear preaching it like it's gospel.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,478
3,078
126
I referring to funboy6942......no links! Since it was his post I am asking hin to back up his post......
He did not post links to all his supposed diatribe that he posted...one link did not cover all his diatribe...
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
16,666
4,512
136
Yeah, that shit creates waste. That's a known component. Coal, gas, and petroleum products create several orders of magnitude more waste. Is that clear?

Choosing to not take a better path because it isn't perfect is foolish.
Well, sometimes mistakes are made. Ethanol from corn. Of course it was only successful after getting the farmers sold on it. Now we can't get rid of it.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,297
1,222
136
This guys panels have been hit, needing replacement (waste), in 6 years a switch's plastic has gone bad letting water in, ruining his switch needing replacement (waste), and I didnt think of this stuff going bad too for I was just posting stuff if nothing goes bad and just replacing every 25 years or so.


Ive yet to watch more of his video, but saw this and wanted to link it up to show this stuff going bad in just 6 years, but if you get rid of the plants, and this stuff breaks producing no power. And like me, if forced into this stuff, my roof doesnt face the sun, and if Im forced to put them uup anyway, I cant, Im broke, cant afford it, and cant afford to have it fixed, cost is waaaay to much for me.
I recall in a previous video Dave investigated the reduced power output and found that some panels had shattered glass from a likely small meteor impact.

[edit]

 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,298
4,198
146
Well, sometimes mistakes are made. Ethanol from corn. Of course it was only successful after getting the farmers sold on it. Now we can't get rid of it.
Indeed, that was a misstep imo. It's good to take stock of those to try and avoid repeating them. I don't think any rational person would consider solar/wind energy a 'mistake' though.
 

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