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Discussion So why is the US still using Coal for energy?

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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
26,812
7,107
136
It's called phasing it out, rather than cutting our noses off to spite our faces.

As other posters have readily demonstrated, Coal is coming to an end. This is a process, and it takes time.
We'd be about 20 years ahead of where we are now if not for Republicans. At least.
 

iRONic

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2006
5,371
389
126
I agree with solar to a point for if you cant direct the panels as the sun moves, they are not all that efficient, and ontop of that having to replace them about every 10 years or so with new, between stationary, and useless if its cloudy, having to replace,

and have blades that need to be replaced,
and there is a bunch of waste produced to make the blades as well, and didnt kill the birds, some of which are endangered, Id be all for it all :p
Coal is bad, but so is producing the solar panels and need replacing way to often, and wind generators in making of them and especially the blades for they more at over 100mph, and because of the wind going across the blades, and weight, the composites they are made of cause wastes thats harmful. And they kill the crap out of birds :O OH and not to mention when the brakes go out and they explode.



You're harping on 'replacement'. Can you point me to some factual links that support this replacement problem?

Also, wind generator blades move over 100 mph?! Link, please...?
 
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whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
1,564
96
You're harping on 'replacement'. Can you point me to some factual links that support this replacement
"Jaskalas, post: 39997759, member: 137030"]

It's called phasing it out, rather than cutting our noses off to spite our faces.


As other posters have readily demonstrated, Coal is coming to an end. This is a process, and it takes time.
problem?

Also, wind generator blades move over 100 mph?! Link, please...?
[/QUOTE]
Yes I would like to see a link myself. Do airplane props even spin at 100mph?

So my fellow posters, how soon can the US phase out Coal entirely if we had the political will to do so? 10 years? I mean out country had the will to land men on the Moon and bring them back without a hitch. So phasing out a dirty and filthy fossil fuel should be trivial in comparison, right?
 
Jun 18, 2000
10,841
339
126
The tip of a windmill can move at a very high speed. It's just how angular velocity works. It depends on wind speed and length of each blade. It's obviously much slower near the center. Here's an example:


2. How fast do the blades turn? Depending on wind conditions, the blades turn at rates between 10 and 20 revolutions per minute. Considering the length of the blades with average wind speeds of 13 to 15 mph, the tips are traveling at 120 mph. At maximum wind speeds, the blade tips are spinning at an estimated 180 mph.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
14,619
7,816
146
You're harping on 'replacement'. Can you point me to some factual links that support this replacement problem?

Also, wind generator blades move over 100 mph?! Link, please...?
problem?

Also, wind generator blades move over 100 mph?! Link, please...?
Yes I would like to see a link myself. Do airplane props even spin at 100mph?

So my fellow posters, how soon can the US phase out Coal entirely if we had the political will to do so? 10 years? I mean out country had the will to land men on the Moon and bring them back without a hitch. So phasing out a dirty and filthy fossil fuel should be trivial in comparison, right?
So according to the inter webs the average wind turbine blade length is 120ft and the average rotational rate is 5-20 rpm.
That would give a blade tip linear speed of 42-170mph. So maybe that’s what @funboy6942 was referring too.

As for solar cells only lasting 10 years that’s bull too. Many cells will still be producing 90% of BOL capacity at 10 years and 80% at 25 years. Hell we’re just finally getting around to replacing the solar arrays on the ISS in the next year or two as the first set of arrays comes up on their 20th year in service. They see much worse environments than anything on the ground does.

Finally the environmental impacts of manufacturing solar cells or wind turbines are a red-herring. Coal plants also require manufacturing and the whole purpose of replacing our energy infrastructure is it makes the manufacturing of anything much less impactful.
 

Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
8,754
2,669
136
problem?

Also, wind generator blades move over 100 mph?! Link, please...?
Yes I would like to see a link myself. Do airplane props even spin at 100mph?

So my fellow posters, how soon can the US phase out Coal entirely if we had the political will to do so? 10 years? I mean out country had the will to land men on the Moon and bring them back without a hitch. So phasing out a dirty and filthy fossil fuel should be trivial in comparison, right?
[/QUOTE]
It is hard to gauge because wind turbines are so big. But the GE 2 MW turbines have a rotor diameter of 116 meters, so the tips would be hitting 100 mpg at ~7 rpm. I can't find a spec on what RPM they do, but I was thinking in the 10 rpm range from what I've seen.

Airplane props and fan blades are hitting the sound barrier at their tips, a little over 750 mph.
 

Dulanic

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2000
9,805
403
136
You're harping on 'replacement'. Can you point me to some factual links that support this replacement problem?

Also, wind generator blades move over 100 mph?! Link, please...?
I'm sure the tips of the blades may move that fast with how huge they are. This is not a point against them IMO. I'm sure someone will say but OMG the birds! Of course the annual death rate cased by wind turbines is something like 200K annually, vs the billions killed by cats. Take out the cats!
 
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iRONic

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2006
5,371
389
126

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,251
476
126
We'd be about 20 years ahead of where we are now if not for Republicans. At least.
Much quicker if Americans had to pay for the pollution in other countries, so they can enjoy their cheap outsourced products, pollution especially the airborne type doesn’t respect national boundaries no matter how stringent the local laws are, as California is finding out.
It's big part of the reason California has so much smog.

A lot of people like to imagine pollution respects national borders. The reality is, it couldn't care less. A new report found that pollution is traveling around the world and, in particular, moving from China to California.

"Pollution really doesn’t know boundaries," explained Gina McCarthy, the former EPA administrator and director of the Center for Climate, Health, and the Global Environment at Harvard. "Nothing goes away. It ends up somewhere."

That's actually a big part of the reason California has so much smog.


"Scientists found Asian air pollution contributed as much as 65 percent of an increase in Western ozone in recent years," NPR reported. "China and India, where many consumer products are manufactured, are the worst offenders." A number of studies have come to similar conclusions, with one study finding "29% of particulates in the San Francisco area came from coal power plants in China."
 

uallas5

Senior member
Jun 3, 2005
970
637
136
And here's another reason for coal to go away:

Secretive energy startup backed by Bill Gates achieves solar breakthrough

Heliogen, a clean energy company that emerged from stealth mode on Tuesday, said it has discovered a way to use artificial intelligence and a field of mirrors to reflect so much sunlight that it generates extreme heat above 1,000 degrees Celsius.

Essentially, Heliogen created a solar oven — one capable of reaching temperatures that are roughly a quarter of what you'd find on the surface of the sun.

The breakthrough means that, for the first time, concentrated solar energy can be used to create the extreme heat required to make cement, steel, glass and other industrial processes. In other words, carbon-free sunlight can replace fossil fuels in a heavy carbon-emitting corner of the economy that has been untouched by the clean energy revolution.
 
Nov 8, 2012
18,814
4,026
136
It's called phasing it out, rather than cutting our noses off to spite our faces.

As other posters have readily demonstrated, Coal is coming to an end. This is a process, and it takes time.
NO GOD DAMNIT! Everything is a fucking light-switch.

Don't want to be fat? Flip the switch you're skinny tomorrow.
Don't want to run on coal? Flip the switch and instantly all jobs are gone, all automation stops, and all facilities that run off of it will immediately transition.
 
Nov 8, 2012
18,814
4,026
136
Much quicker if Americans had to pay for the pollution in other countries, so they can enjoy their cheap outsourced products, pollution especially the airborne type doesn’t respect national boundaries no matter how stringent the local laws are, as California is finding out.
You're confusing California smog with California smug

 

zzyzxroad

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2017
3,129
2,122
136
Much quicker if Americans had to pay for the pollution in other countries, so they can enjoy their cheap outsourced products, pollution especially the airborne type doesn’t respect national boundaries no matter how stringent the local laws are, as California is finding out.
So is your point that the US should just give up on any air quality regulations? Maybe take steps to pollute more?
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
1,564
96
And here's another reason for coal to go away:

Secretive energy startup backed by Bill Gates achieves solar breakthrough

Heliogen, a clean energy company that emerged from stealth mode on Tuesday, said it has discovered a way to use artificial intelligence and a field of mirrors to reflect so much sunlight that it generates extreme heat above 1,000 degrees Celsius.

Essentially, Heliogen created a solar oven — one capable of reaching temperatures that are roughly a quarter of what you'd find on the surface of the sun.

The breakthrough means that, for the first time, concentrated solar energy can be used to create the extreme heat required to make cement, steel, glass and other industrial processes. In other words, carbon-free sunlight can replace fossil fuels in a heavy carbon-emitting corner of the economy that has been untouched by the clean energy revolution.
That was reminds me of a video I've seen that some inventor created a machine using Solar Heat to produce ice cream during some fair in Paris around the 1800's

There was even machinery using such heat to pump water in either Africa or the Middle East to water the crops.

The only reason we didn't see widespread use of this technology is due to burning fossil fuels was cheaper in the short term.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
20,240
11,685
136
Much quicker if Americans had to pay for the pollution in other countries, so they can enjoy their cheap outsourced products, pollution especially the airborne type doesn’t respect national boundaries no matter how stringent the local laws are, as California is finding out.
You're confusing California smog with California smug

Yawn, neither post above is meaningful or witty.

Back to the OP.

Market forces are making it happen right now, coal is being retired as plants reach end of life. Power points are huge capital investments and as such transitions to newer technologies take time.
 
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funboy6942

Lifer
Nov 13, 2001
14,791
163
106
49
Blades are bad, and just think in 20 years all of them get tossed away, or I hope at that point we find a way to recycle them...


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Speed kills

According to this chart, depending on who makes it, can degrade to 80% of life in just 10 years, down to about 80% in 25 years, but still thousands of dollars to replace them every 25 years, and the wires, and tech to run then for it will be so far more advanced then your out dated 25 year old crap, and in roof mounted and not trackable they are not all that efficient in the first place, so I hope your roof is facing the sun most of the day. I for one cannot afford these, trackable or not, nor every 25 years or so, and the hazardous waste produced by them evey 25 years replacing them, and my neighbor, and my neighbors neighbor, and so forth, is going to be huge and a problem to keep replacing them all the time every 25 years to keep them at least 80% or better.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Dont get me wrong, but I dont like being lied to by these companies saying this is the end all to fossil fuels. Im not happy about them, but really what are you really saving when the materials to make all this stuff and replace will be bad for the environment. And if you end all fossil fuels, what about the cloudy, non windy days, cant produce something that relies on that to produce, PLEASE tell me how your gonna get energy on a cloudy non windy day if you kill off all the power plants?
Please dont kill the messenger but between waste, replacement and cost to replace every 20-25 years, unless they track the sun and /or your roof faces the sun all day are inefficient really, but still need replacing and cause waste to do so, and waste to produce. If on your roof, you need un-environment friendly lead acid batteries to store that energy on cloudy days, and hope its not cloudy for 2 days or more for your waste batteries are gonna die, then what? If wind are made from a composite material that is hazardous to produce, and need replacing, so far, every 20 years, and what about the ones that the brakes go out on producing all that good eco friendly smoke before it self destructs, doesnt happen often, but it does, watched one on youtube blow up they put right next to a school :p

They just are not all the "ECO" or as useful, cloudy no windy days again, it happens and alot depending on where you live, as we are really told about them. And again Im for getting rid of nuke and coal, but this, to me, isnt the end all to them as we are told, or as nice to the eco as we are led to believe in Unless you can tell me otherwise as to how they will produce the much needed power on cloudy non windy days, and its not the same all over the US, or world, to have them in all spots too. I want to see something better, and I THINK tidal turbines are really close to doing it if you live near an ocean, for they work on the tide that is always moving at a constant rate with the tide, but again hazardous to produce, need replacing, break down, kill fish and what not, but of the other 2, the tide doesnt quit working so they will always make power no matter what, unless they break. But too bad we all dont live near an ocean, but love the concept of these units.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
101,357
5,359
126
Market forces are making it happen right now, coal is being retired as plants reach end of life. Power points are huge capital investments and as such transitions to newer technologies take time.
coal plants are getting retired early (for example):


 
Jun 18, 2000
10,841
339
126
Blades are bad, and just think in 20 years all of them get tossed away, or I hope at that point we find a way to recycle them...
Is this really what you're worried about? Here is a snip from one of your links:

While most of a turbine can be recycled or find a second life on another wind farm, researchers estimate the U.S. will have more than 720,000 tons of blade material to dispose of over the next 20 years, a figure that doesn’t include newer, taller, higher-capacity versions.
Meanwhile the U.S. creates 130 million tons of coal ash every year, which contains all sorts of fun toxic heavy metals. Much of which sits in open air pits where it leaches into the ground water. A lot is just sent to landfills. And really you're worried about the blades from windmills? Unreal.

 
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Luna1968

Golden Member
Mar 9, 2019
1,066
480
106
Per the title why is my Country burning the very dirty and filthy fossil known as Coal when there are much cheaper and cleaner sources of energy available? Other Nations are heavily investing in renewable power?

Our senile POTUS is trying to bring coal back despite the experts saying that coal is a lost cause?
what countries DO NOT use coal?
 

Luna1968

Golden Member
Mar 9, 2019
1,066
480
106
coal plants are getting retired early (for example):



i read a news piece a few months ago that said that in Colorado the energy produced by wind now exceeds energy produced by coal/natural gas.
 

funboy6942

Lifer
Nov 13, 2001
14,791
163
106
49
Is this really what you're worried about? Here is a snip from one of your links:



Meanwhile the U.S. creates 130 million tons of coal ash every year, which contains all sorts of fun toxic heavy metals. Much of which sits in open air pits where it leaches into the ground water. A lot is just sent to landfills. And really you're worried about the blades from windmills? Unreal.

You must have missed where I been saying coal IS BAD, but wind and solar ISNT as good as they try to make them out to be, thanks for proving my point more, and still no one has told me what can be done about non sunny windy days, how do these two supposed to produce the much needed power fur ur phones? Wind and solar just cannot produce steady, all the time power needed all the time no matter what that people seem to think they can for they dont go outside and notice it isnt sunny or windy, just that they been told these are the saving grace, when they are flawed. Hence, that no one has brought up like I did, if you live near the ocean need to look into tidal generators for power. OH and you forgot my questioning about the hazards and waste to produce them too, not just when they wear out. Check out how they are made, or if I get time, I wil find a link, so you see, they are hazardous to produce as well as get rid of ;)

So ready to put me down, but no one has told me how these are going to make the power needed on no sunny and non windy days, and the fact they are not 100% eco friendly either as people are led to believe, I want better if we are going to get off fossil fuels or nuke that can work all day long no matter the weather out side, or which way your house faces the sun, or the non eco friendly batteries needed to be used, and replaced, to go with your roof solar, or if it is cloudy, or windless, and the power runs out of them, how do you then run your house since you cut the cord and got rid of coal and nuke in favor of them.

Kinda like elctric cars, go 250 miles in them, and hope they dont run out on the road, or there is a charging place near by, but wait 6+ hours for the battery to charge and do 250+ miles again, when it take 5 minutes to put gas in my car, get 300+ miles per tank, and I keep going pretty much break free. Not everyone has family near them where 250 is just fine, mine are all over the usa, and much more then 250+ miles away, and I dont really feel like going 250 miles, and then waiting 6 hours or so for my $60K car to charge, when I paid $12K for the one I got and can just keep putting fuel in it and go pretty much non stop to get to them. Its flawed, but we are told they do sooo much bad for the eco, when a modern car hardly puts anything out it but water as the byproduct, when cows are MUCCCCCCCCH worse then a car will ever be, but then too Im still going to have my burgers for breakfast, lunch, and dinner :D

So before we get rid of something that YES, is bad for the eco, we need something that works all the time non stop as well without fail, and if we are to bitch about byproducts made from it, then what ever replaces it, needs to last long, not cost a arm and leg, and is MUCH less on the waste scope of things too, or ur kids are going to throw a fit in 30 years saying they are wasteful every 20-25 years being tossed in landfills when worn out, and need to be like the flintstones with push cars, and stomach guts from dead cows for grocery bags. Hell on that topic, when I was growing up I remember the government trying to use us kids to "save the trees" and dont use paper bags at the grocery stores, and now they want to do away with them in favor for the paper bags again, make up ur minds dangit :p
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
16,666
4,512
136
Blades are bad, and just think in 20 years all of them get tossed away, or I hope at that point we find a way to recycle them...


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Speed kills

According to this chart, depending on who makes it, can degrade to 80% of life in just 10 years, down to about 80% in 25 years, but still thousands of dollars to replace them every 25 years, and the wires, and tech to run then for it will be so far more advanced then your out dated 25 year old crap, and in roof mounted and not trackable they are not all that efficient in the first place, so I hope your roof is facing the sun most of the day. I for one cannot afford these, trackable or not, nor every 25 years or so, and the hazardous waste produced by them evey 25 years replacing them, and my neighbor, and my neighbors neighbor, and so forth, is going to be huge and a problem to keep replacing them all the time every 25 years to keep them at least 80% or better.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Dont get me wrong, but I dont like being lied to by these companies saying this is the end all to fossil fuels. Im not happy about them, but really what are you really saving when the materials to make all this stuff and replace will be bad for the environment. And if you end all fossil fuels, what about the cloudy, non windy days, cant produce something that relies on that to produce, PLEASE tell me how your gonna get energy on a cloudy non windy day if you kill off all the power plants?
Please dont kill the messenger but between waste, replacement and cost to replace every 20-25 years, unless they track the sun and /or your roof faces the sun all day are inefficient really, but still need replacing and cause waste to do so, and waste to produce. If on your roof, you need un-environment friendly lead acid batteries to store that energy on cloudy days, and hope its not cloudy for 2 days or more for your waste batteries are gonna die, then what? If wind are made from a composite material that is hazardous to produce, and need replacing, so far, every 20 years, and what about the ones that the brakes go out on producing all that good eco friendly smoke before it self destructs, doesnt happen often, but it does, watched one on youtube blow up they put right next to a school :p

They just are not all the "ECO" or as useful, cloudy no windy days again, it happens and alot depending on where you live, as we are really told about them. And again Im for getting rid of nuke and coal, but this, to me, isnt the end all to them as we are told, or as nice to the eco as we are led to believe in Unless you can tell me otherwise as to how they will produce the much needed power on cloudy non windy days, and its not the same all over the US, or world, to have them in all spots too. I want to see something better, and I THINK tidal turbines are really close to doing it if you live near an ocean, for they work on the tide that is always moving at a constant rate with the tide, but again hazardous to produce, need replacing, break down, kill fish and what not, but of the other 2, the tide doesnt quit working so they will always make power no matter what, unless they break. But too bad we all dont live near an ocean, but love the concept of these units.
Brought to you by the petroleum institute.
 

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