The GDDR4 they are using is the slowest of all the range of GDDR4 tho, so later models will have tighter timings and faster clock speeds
So do I. ATI should have gone 80nm + 700-750 MHz on the core with the X1950XTX, but I suppose there just wasn't time. It shouldn't be more than a few months before we'll be saying R600, anyway.
That's true, but remember that you're mixing the street price of the X1900XT with the MSRP of the X1950XTX. You can't really compare the two and get an accurate pricing picture. Once the X1950XTX has been out in quantity for awhile, I highly doubt stores will be charging $450 for them.
So the ATi supporters excuse is going to be that the card is merely a refresh is it? I must say it is pretty consistent with previous ATi refreshes - ie nothing exciting at all.
However, just because ATi's refreshes are less than exciting doesn't mean all refreshes are, or that this is a valid excuse for lack of a perfomance increase. Witness G71, which is "only a refresh" of G70, which is a refresh of nv40. There is certainly plenty of added performance with G71. Same thing with nv25 (GF4) - it was a refresh of vn20, but that didn't stop it from having killer performance. You can say the same about nv11 & nv10 (GF2 & GF1) and even nv7 & nv5 (TNT2 & TNT1).
So, frankly, the "its only a refresh" excuse doesn't fly in my books - lots of refreshes perform very nicely indeed.
Huh...Ati's refreshes are less then exciting? 9700 -> 9800 -> x800 were all based on r300 architecture.. and guess what? x800 had more than double a 9700 performance.. Ati refreshes are just as exciting as nvidias... Actually x1800 > x1900 was more exciting then 7800 > 7900
So the ATi supporters excuse is going to be that the card is merely a refresh is it? I must say it is pretty consistent with previous ATi refreshes - ie nothing exciting at all.
However, just because ATi's refreshes are less than exciting doesn't mean all refreshes are, or that this is a valid excuse for lack of a perfomance increase. Witness G71, which is "only a refresh" of G70, which is a refresh of nv40. There is certainly plenty of added performance with G71. Same thing with nv25 (GF4) - it was a refresh of vn20, but that didn't stop it from having killer performance. You can say the same about nv11 & nv10 (GF2 & GF1) and even nv7 & nv5 (TNT2 & TNT1).
So, frankly, the "its only a refresh" excuse doesn't fly in my books - lots of refreshes perform very nicely indeed.[/quote]
You mean, like how NV "refreshed" the Ti4600 with 8X AGP instead of 4X AGP and called it the Ti4800? Zero performance increase. Yes, there was a refresh to be proud of.
Give it up, Greg. The X1950XTX is a GREAT refresh of the X1900XTX and only a few die-hard Nv supporters such as yourself will fail to acknowledge it. GDDR4 memory running at 1 GHz (a first for both the memory type and overall speed), an all-new cooler running HSF with heatpipe that is much quieter than the HSF it's replacing, lower overall power consumption, increased overall performance and all with what the reviewers are calling a surprisingly low MSRP of $449 for a card that can take on the Nvidia flagship 7950GX2 with its $600 MSRP. You can try to downplay it all you like, but the reviews don't lie.
But don't simply take my word for it. Go read a few reviews and see how many have given the X1950XTX an Editor's Choice award or its equivalent. They don't usually hand those out to mediocre products.
I had an nv28 Creig (replaced my Gf3 with it at the time), and it overclocked like a demon. Great product when you could get better than Ti4600 performance cheaper than a Ti4200. EDIT: it also got the AGP 8x spec exactly right first time too - something ATi and Intel couldn't manage...
Admittedly it was a minor refresh in the grand scheme of things, but nvidia has had very few of those and ATi has had a hell of a lot of them (x800 and possibly 1900 being the only real exceptions).
Admittedly it was a minor refresh in the grand scheme of things, but nvidia has had very few of those and ATi has had a hell of a lot of them (x800 and possibly 1900 being the only real exceptions).
All I know is I'm completely sold on the quieter operation and the decreased power consumption. I may just drop 450 on this thing and get rid of my X800XTPE.
wouldnt the x1950 use more power than ur x800 xtpe?
and now that i see others have overclocked it. this wouldnt be a bad card overclocked.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=112771
hes running 776/1143 on air. unlike those othe review sites that bumped it 20mhz.
the mem still has more in it if u read the post they say its locked at 1143 for now.
changed my mind to a pretty decent card.
and now that i see others have overclocked it. this wouldnt be a bad card overclocked.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=112771
hes running 776/1143 on air. unlike those othe review sites that bumped it 20mhz.
the mem still has more in it if u read the post they say its locked at 1143 for now.
changed my mind to a pretty decent card.
oh it would definitely use more power, but not quite as much as the other high-end alternatives. Plus the fact that I dont have to mess with the cooler to have a quiet card will be nice.
Wreckage is an ATI supporter? From what I've seen, he shows more support for Nvidia than ATI, but still acknowledges that this card is a good refresh.
And Nvidia hasn't ever had some of those right? ATI didn't have HDCP, now they do with this refresh. The 78 series didn't have HDR+AA, now the 79 series still doesn't. At least ATI added more features instead of pancaking two 7900's together and calling it a card. Not to mention they are the first to incorporate a gDDR4 memory, which goes to show they had the better memory controller all along with their X1900's/X1800's. Also, I'd like Nvidia to make as powerful of a GPU as an X1900's and still keep their power consumptions down to what this card's is. The cooler's noise is comparible to the 7900GTX's yet it is copper and takes the hot air out of the case.
There isn't a lack of performance increase. Some sites have shown gains of around 20fps in certain games. I will agree though that for the most part it isn't enough to warrant an upgrade, but niether was the G71 when I already had a G70. My G70 is just as good as other 7900GT's.
So is R600 going to be a refresh of R580(+)? Is everything a refresh now?
You're right. Only when Nvidia's drivers settings are as light as feathers do they fly in your books.
Try some reading comprehension. You said that "ATI supporters excuse is going to be that the card is merely a refresh is it?" yet Wreckage also agrees that this card is a good refresh. It's not just the "ATI supporters".
Wow it looks like I opened a can of worms in here. I just read through the whole thread and some pretty interesting things. You bring up some good points Ackmed; this card did fix quite a few problems with the original 1900's, but they really where peripheral issues.
1. HDCP added yipy I guess I am just one of those that doesn't get the big deal with this feature. Plus I have a bit of disdain for the whole HDCP movement anyway, so I guess my view on this can be filtered under biased. However I do think there are a few like me.
2. the power consumption was a nice thing to bring down yes, but I always felt it a weak argument when nvidia fans brought it up. The heat always brought extra performance so it didn't bother me too much. It wasn't an intel heat that was just there to heat my room but didn't bring any performance with it. This may be a good thing if ATI can focus on power consumption with their r600 because at that level it even starts to worry me and I have a pretty good power supply so I know there are going to be people with lesser powersupplies that are going to need a card that doesn't need it's own generator
3. the noise mmm most people put their own heatsinks on or went water which took care of the heat too. It is nice to see a good heatsink on them but I wouldn't spend $150 extra for a heatsink
4. I totally agree on the pricing of this card it is nice to see them bring it out with the price they did. However they didn't really have a choice on that as I am sure they new this card wasn't a 7950GX2 killer and it really even isn't it's equal in alot of games, so they really couldn't price it as they did the old x1900xtx because then it would be competing with the 7950GX2 and lossing pretty badly -- no one would buy one. Then they have the x1900xtx which performs pretty close to it so they couldn't price it too much higher than what those are going for or else they wouldn't sell any 1950xtx's everone would be buying the x1900xtx. So they where kind of between a rock and a hard place on the pricing.
It is this price problem that I think is ATI's biggest problem. With the x1900xt going for ~$300, the x1900xtx going for ~$350, and now the x1950xtx probably selling for ~$450 but all performing within a small margin of frame rates the price/performance ratio is all off for ATI. Most buyers are going to want the spot where price/performance meet and that is a x1900xt when overclocked you will get frames very close to the x1950 but it's $150 cheaper.
The thing I think would have helped ATI would have been to have this card be faster Like they said it would be
quote from dailytech
granted they said it shows minor improvements over the x1900xt but ATI claimed this is a card that beats a 7950GX2 in all six games they benched. So ya they did say it was supposed to be faster than it is. Am i supprised that the ATI marketing slides lied? No. It's just that you wanted to know where they said it was supposed to be faster and this is where.
1. I dont care about HDCP either, some people liked to bring it up as an advantage for NV. It is no longer.
2. I also dont care that it consumes 20w less. But again, some people liked to bring it up all the time. No its not as low as NV's, but it is lower.
3. I dont think most people put on an aftermarket cooler. The new cooler is much quieter, and the noise of the X1900's were probably the biggest "drawback" or complaint by most people.
4. Yes, the pricing does rock. About 6 months ago, ATi launched the X1900XTX for $650, now a card thats better in every way, its going to be launched at $450. Thats pretty nice. NV too has lowered their pricing, its not just ATi. The 7800GTX was $600, the 7900GTX is $500.
5. I dont see the problem with the slides. Doesnt look like lies to me. I dont doubt they twisted benchmarks to favor them though. There are several reviews that show the XTX taking most of the benches. The problem with "internal benchmarks" is that unless they say, we dont know what driver settings, game settings (probably for real reviews too), or what type of benchmarks were ran. As I said earlier, I dont doubt ATi tested things to their favor. As Im sure NV does when they release slides.
I think the main reason Nv got away with pricing the 7800gtx for so much was nothing was out that could compete with it. Kind of like the x1900 when it came out. If you look at the launches that have competion already waiting in the wing they are usually priced lower. Look at the 7900gtx it had the x1900 to go up agaist they priced it accordingly and now the x1950xtx has the 7950GX2 to go up against and they priced it accordingly. I bet anything that if NV didn't have the 7950GX2 out this card would be selling for more.
Are you talking about the single gpu or single card bench? Because I just looked at the Anandtech review again and interestingly enough the only game that the x1950xtx beats a 7950GX2 in with AA is Quake 4. I thought that was a bit wierd kinda like Nvidia beating ATI in oblivion right? If you are talking single gpu there is no doubt the x1950xtx beats them all. But many people want a 7950GX2 killer as that is mainly seen as a single card. I don't want the problems of dual gpu with any company, but I would have liked to see ATI stomp on the 7950's toes a little more than it did. As far as the slides go both sides are just as guilty so I agree with you there.
The one thing I like about the 1950 is that it has screwed around the prices on the other cards so now the x1900xt is in the price range I normally buy at. Close to a year ago I bought a 7800gt for around that price today I can get one hell of a card for the same price. That makes me happy.
Not according to this.
Careful redbox, your talking about a lower grade system than Ackmed's and he'll think poorly of you if you don't have a setup like his. (his posts concerning someone else's rig)
That's unfortunately true. Hope it doesn't come to that. Nvidia would get lazy and greedy. (So would ATI if the present situations were reversed).
So you don't see what's wrong with the slides that have twisted benchmarks?You've been suffering from this lately
5150Joker
Diamond Member
it was stated over and over the only difference was going to be gddr4 and a new cooler - why in the world would you think it would be a gx2 killer?
No the people that were expecting a GX2 killer were dreaming, it's very doubtful ou could get performance of midly above 7900 GT SLI with a singl e card solution based on R580 technology not without a core increase.
This refresh at least felt more interesting then some of the other refresh prior.
Finally it was ATI who is the first to introduce a new memory standard. Nvidia introduced DDR with Geforce 256 DDR, DDR2 with the Geforce FX 5800 Ultra, and GDDR3 with the Geforce FX 5700 Ultra Rev.2 and finally we have ATI with GDDR4 on their X1950 XTX.
This refresh is similar to minor refreshes such as the 9800 Pro to 9800 XT, FX 5900 Ultra to FX 5950 Ultra, X800 XT PE to X850 XT PE.
It's not a refresh on the level of R360 to R420 or NV45 to G70, however it's a reasonable one, Nvidia is also doing some refreshing of it's own, though they are in the mainstream brackets.
I am hoping the Geforce 7900 GS and 7950 GT are good values for their performance. Though the 7950 GT will have a tough fight with the X1900 XT 256.
This refresh at least felt more interesting then some of the other refresh prior.
Finally it was ATI who is the first to introduce a new memory standard. Nvidia introduced DDR with Geforce 256 DDR, DDR2 with the Geforce FX 5800 Ultra, and GDDR3 with the Geforce FX 5700 Ultra Rev.2 and finally we have ATI with GDDR4 on their X1950 XTX.
This refresh is similar to minor refreshes such as the 9800 Pro to 9800 XT, FX 5900 Ultra to FX 5950 Ultra, X800 XT PE to X850 XT PE.
It's not a refresh on the level of R360 to R420 or NV45 to G70, however it's a reasonable one, Nvidia is also doing some refreshing of it's own, though they are in the mainstream brackets.
I am hoping the Geforce 7900 GS and 7950 GT are good values for their performance. Though the 7950 GT will have a tough fight with the X1900 XT 256.
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