So who gets the blame for this one . . . Hezbollah or IDF?

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: Genx87

2) Israel knocked out the airport for the same reason it knocked out the powerplant, destroyed the roads, destroyed the bridges, bombed fuel depots, attacked Lebanese media outlets, and blockaded the coast . . . they think it advances their military goals. I'm simply pointing out those actions are collective punishment and accordingly unlawful acts.

They knocked out the airport to keep their soldiers from being flown out. It also keeps supplies from being flown in. This isnt rocket science.

Knocking out the power plant cuts down the lines of communications. We did it in Iraq, we did it in WWII, we did it in every major war we have been in. Communication is key in a modern warzone. Knocking out the power that is used to communication will slow your enemies response time down.

3) Odds are 99.99% of the civilians in Lebanon and 90% of the casualties had no idea whatsoever that Hezbollah intended to attack IDF across the border and kidnap soldiers for the purpose of a prisoner exchange. But don't let that stop you from blaming the victims.

And? Many embrace these people, if they want to embrace them, they are going to end up having a consequence for it.

Dude, I don't know what you are smoking but it's time to pass it along.

For #2, I would say those are military goals. That has no bearing on the fact that it is also collective punishment . . . unless of course civilians wanting to leave Lebanon/Beirut have teleporters.

Last time I checked . . . hospitals need power. "Well use their backup generators," you say. Well last time I checked . . . generators need fuel. "Well just drive down the road and get some", you say. I wouldn't advise driving down a road (if it wasn't bombed out) in Lebanon. And if you did get to the fuel depot . . . oops its destroyed and thousands of tons of fuel/oil are going into the sea.

Hezbollah's favored media outlet was back on the air in a few hours. I'm sure they use a lot of cell phones, sat phones, and radio. In essence, IDF has punished the people of Lebanon . . . not obstructed communication by Hezbollah.

So let's say IDF decides its going to bomb a village, town, or city . . . communicate that through the civilian infrastructure . . . or drop propaganda leaflets from the air.:roll:

For item #3, IDF bombs an apartment building in Beirut . . . Hezbollah feeds the surviovrs in a shelter. Who do you think they would embrace . . . Israel?

Hezbollah, Israel, and Bushistas have the same affliction . . . lack of vision and imagination. You can certainly take a course of action with the expectation of a specific result. But only a fool takes a course of action and ONLY expects a specific result. Hezbollah miscalculated the Israeli response. The Israeli response appears to be an open-ended conflict . . . not what they wanted. Bushistas (at least the marginally less delusional ones) are coming to terms with the fact we haven't had such pitiful influence in the Middle East in more than a century.

 

[Genx87]

Dude, I don't know what you are smoking but it's time to pass it along.

Argument must be getting stronger

For #2, I would say those are military goals. That has no bearing on the fact that it is also collective punishment . . . unless of course civilians wanting to leave Lebanon/Beirut have teleporters.

Yes it is collective punishment, war has always been that, and it always will.

Last time I checked . . . hospitals need power. "Well use their backup generators," you say. Well last time I checked . . . generators need fuel. "Well just drive down the road and get some", you say. I wouldn't advise driving down a road (if it wasn't bombed out) in Lebanon. And if you did get to the fuel depot . . . oops its destroyed and thousands of tons of fuel/oil are going into the sea.

Ok? Israeli's main concern is to knock the fighting capability out of Hizbollah, not concern themselves with if Hospitals are with or without power.

Hezbollah's favored media outlet was back on the air in a few hours. I'm sure they use a lot of cell phones, sat phones, and radio. In essence, IDF has punished the people of Lebanon . . . not obstructed communication by Hezbollah.

That may be but you can only work so long on those devices and they arent always secure and or reliable.

Hezbollah, Israel, and Bushistas have the same affliction . . . lack of vision and imagination. You can certainly take a course of action with the expectation of a specific result. But only a fool takes a course of action and ONLY expects a specific result. Hezbollah miscalculated the Israeli response. The Israeli response appears to be an open-ended conflict . . . not what they wanted. Bushistas (at least the marginally less delusional ones) are coming to terms with the fact we haven't had such pitiful influence in the Middle East in more than a century.

I agree, we lack the imagination to believe a group of people dedicated to wiping another group off the face of the earth, in this case, Hizbollah wanting to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, can sit down and be talked into not doing such a thing.

Imagination is about the only place where you will see such a thing.

bwt wasnt Hizbollah supposed to disarm per a UN resolution?

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

^^so your appeal to authority is the UN?

Interesting . . .

During the period between 1967 and 2000, Iraq was the subject of 69 Security Council resolutions. By comparison, Israel, our closest "ally" in the Middle East, has been the subject of 138 resolutions. Not surprisingly, most of those resolutions call upon Israel to comply with basic principles of international law embodied by the UN Charter. Many of them condemn actions taken by Israel and call upon Israel on more than one occasion to comply with previous resolutions that Israel ignored and continues to ignore to this day.

On June, 14, 1967, through Resolution No. 237, the Security Council called upon Israel to "ensure the safety, welfare and security of the inhabitants, facilitate the return of those inhabitants who have fled the areas since the outbreak of the hostilities and recommends the scrupulous respect of the humanitarian principles contained in the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949." In subsequent resolutions, the Security Council deplored Israel for the delay in its implementation of Resolution 237. Yet, Israel continued to defy the world community, including the United States. The Security Council, in the face of Israel's defiance, passed no less than five subsequent resolutions demanding that Israel comply but to this day, thirty five years after June 14, 1967, the defiance continues.

Hmm, where was Hezbollah and Hamas in 1967? Oh yeah, they didn't exist!

On March 22, 1979, the Security Council adopted Resolution No. 446. Israel?s violation of Resolution 446 (sections quoted below) represents the most flagrant violation of Israel, not only of the UN but also the stated policy of our government under successive administrations:

(The Council) Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive and lasting peace in the Middle East; Calls once more upon Israel, as the occupying power, to abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, to rescind it?s previous measures and to desist from taking any action which would result in changing the legal status and geographical nature and materially affecting the demographic composition of the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, and in particular, not to transfer parts of its own civilian population into the occupied Arab territories.

Hezbollah came into existence (1982) as a response to the Israeli invasion and occupation of southern Lebanon. Hamas didn't raise its horns of evil until 1987.

Israeli actions played a contributory role in the formation of Hezbollah and Hamas. That does not minimize the deeds of supporters such as Iran and Syria . . . but it provides a proper context for viewing past and current conflicts.

In essence, Israel is reaping what it sowed . . . and appears hell-bent on fertilizing . . . along with Syria and Iran.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
^^so your appeal to authority is the UN?

Interesting . . .

During the period between 1967 and 2000, Iraq was the subject of 69 Security Council resolutions. By comparison, Israel, our closest "ally" in the Middle East, has been the subject of 138 resolutions. Not surprisingly, most of those resolutions call upon Israel to comply with basic principles of international law embodied by the UN Charter. Many of them condemn actions taken by Israel and call upon Israel on more than one occasion to comply with previous resolutions that Israel ignored and continues to ignore to this day.

On June, 14, 1967, through Resolution No. 237, the Security Council called upon Israel to "ensure the safety, welfare and security of the inhabitants, facilitate the return of those inhabitants who have fled the areas since the outbreak of the hostilities and recommends the scrupulous respect of the humanitarian principles contained in the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949." In subsequent resolutions, the Security Council deplored Israel for the delay in its implementation of Resolution 237. Yet, Israel continued to defy the world community, including the United States. The Security Council, in the face of Israel's defiance, passed no less than five subsequent resolutions demanding that Israel comply but to this day, thirty five years after June 14, 1967, the defiance continues.

Hmm, where was Hezbollah and Hamas in 1967? Oh yeah, they didn't exist!

On March 22, 1979, the Security Council adopted Resolution No. 446. Israel?s violation of Resolution 446 (sections quoted below) represents the most flagrant violation of Israel, not only of the UN but also the stated policy of our government under successive administrations:

(The Council) Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive and lasting peace in the Middle East; Calls once more upon Israel, as the occupying power, to abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, to rescind it?s previous measures and to desist from taking any action which would result in changing the legal status and geographical nature and materially affecting the demographic composition of the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, and in particular, not to transfer parts of its own civilian population into the occupied Arab territories.

Hezbollah came into existence (1982) as a response to the Israeli invasion and occupation of southern Lebanon. Hamas didn't raise its horns of evil until 1987.

Israeli actions played a contributory role in the formation of Hezbollah and Hamas. That does not minimize the deeds of supporters such as Iran and Syria . . . but it provides a proper context for viewing past and current conflicts.

In essence, Israel is reaping what it sowed . . . and appears hell-bent on fertilizing . . . along with Syria and Iran.

What was reasons for Israeli incursions into southern lebabnon in 82?
Sounds like the same people, different name.

 

[HombrePequeno]

I kind of wonder how Israel is expecting to take down Hezbollah. Bombing the entire infrastructure in Lebanon and having it descend into chaos doesn't seem to make any sense. It would be as if to take down the Taliban, we completely destroyed Afghanistan's infrastructure and did nothing else. That clearly wouldn't destroy the Taliban. Instead we took the approach of destroying structures used by the Taliban, root them out, and help build the infrastructure of the country. Hezbollah has a decent amount of support because they build schools and keep things running decently smoothly. You can say, "Well the Lebanese shouldn't have supported Hezbollah and should have stood up against them." What reason did they have to do that? If I lived in a sh!thole and a group (even a terrorist group like Hezbollah) helped make it better while doing no harm to me or my community, what reason would I have to go against them?

Do you think the people of Medellin, Colombia really cared that much that Pablo Escobar ran a violent drug cartel? Hell no, they were happy to see their lives made better because he built schools and gave them running water. Had they already had good infrastructure, I'm certain they wouldn't have been nearly as willing to allow him to operate. It's the same thing with Lebanon. Had Israel (or someone else) helped build schools and helped give the Lebonese people things like running water, I can guarantee you the support for Hezbollah wouldn't be nearly as high.

You can't go around bombing people and expect them to love you for it.

 

[Thump553]

It is important to remember two significant facts; (1) Israel is not at war with Lebanon, only with the Hezbollah and (2) the Shi'a Muslims (where Hezbollah draws it's support) only represent slightly over 26% of Lebanon's population, according to the US State Department US State Dept Report. It fact, the largest religious group in Lebanon (over 40%) are Christian.

 

[Termagant]

I for one am glad there has been an oil spill if it affects future Lebanese tourism.

It is time to tell countries that they cannot harbor terrorists and expect no consequences.

So what if Israel was looking for an excuse to attack Hezbollah. The old status quo would be unacceptable to any nation, unfortunately Israel could not ask for assistance in stopping Hezbollah from the international community because so many nations are terrorist sympathizers and/or have financial reasons to support Hezbollah.

I hope this all works out, Hezbollah is destroyed, Lebanon learns to clean up its act, and the rest of the world can rapidly move to alternative fuels so we can leave the Middle East to its own primitive devices.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Termagant
I for one am glad there has been an oil spill if it affects future Lebanese tourism.

It is time to tell countries that they cannot harbor terrorists and expect no consequences.

Extradite Bush to Iraq.

 

[Termagant]

If Bush is indicted by an Iraqi court I'm all for it.

The US invaded Iraq on silly reasons and everyone in the world rightfully lost respect for the US.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Lebanon existed in the ridiculous situation of a militia controlling 1/3rd of its country, attacking its next door neighbor which happens to be armed to the teeth, over a tiny area of land called Shebaa Farms.

What do people expect to happen when they attack anther country?????

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
^^so your appeal to authority is the UN?

Interesting . . .

During the period between 1967 and 2000, Iraq was the subject of 69 Security Council resolutions. By comparison, Israel, our closest "ally" in the Middle East, has been the subject of 138 resolutions. Not surprisingly, most of those resolutions call upon Israel to comply with basic principles of international law embodied by the UN Charter. Many of them condemn actions taken by Israel and call upon Israel on more than one occasion to comply with previous resolutions that Israel ignored and continues to ignore to this day.

On June, 14, 1967, through Resolution No. 237, the Security Council called upon Israel to "ensure the safety, welfare and security of the inhabitants, facilitate the return of those inhabitants who have fled the areas since the outbreak of the hostilities and recommends the scrupulous respect of the humanitarian principles contained in the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949." In subsequent resolutions, the Security Council deplored Israel for the delay in its implementation of Resolution 237. Yet, Israel continued to defy the world community, including the United States. The Security Council, in the face of Israel's defiance, passed no less than five subsequent resolutions demanding that Israel comply but to this day, thirty five years after June 14, 1967, the defiance continues.

Hmm, where was Hezbollah and Hamas in 1967? Oh yeah, they didn't exist!

On March 22, 1979, the Security Council adopted Resolution No. 446. Israel?s violation of Resolution 446 (sections quoted below) represents the most flagrant violation of Israel, not only of the UN but also the stated policy of our government under successive administrations:

(The Council) Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive and lasting peace in the Middle East; Calls once more upon Israel, as the occupying power, to abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, to rescind it?s previous measures and to desist from taking any action which would result in changing the legal status and geographical nature and materially affecting the demographic composition of the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, and in particular, not to transfer parts of its own civilian population into the occupied Arab territories.

Hezbollah came into existence (1982) as a response to the Israeli invasion and occupation of southern Lebanon. Hamas didn't raise its horns of evil until 1987.

Israeli actions played a contributory role in the formation of Hezbollah and Hamas. That does not minimize the deeds of supporters such as Iran and Syria . . . but it provides a proper context for viewing past and current conflicts.

In essence, Israel is reaping what it sowed . . . and appears hell-bent on fertilizing . . . along with Syria and Iran.

What was reasons for Israeli incursions into southern lebabnon in 82?
Sounds like the same people, different name.

Thats exactly what it is...but he isn't aware of that, since the Wikipedia article didn't mention it. :roll:

Obviously, if he knew what really happened in 1978, 1982, etc., he wouldn't have posted that drivel to begin with.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

^^so where does the history of the Israeli-Arab conflict start . . . last month, 1982, 1967, 1948, 1931, 1921? For the record, I didn't use Wiki for Hezbollah or Hamas.

Unlike the cacophony of the partisans, I side with the innocent . . . Arab and Israeli alike. The deplorable behavior of despotic +/- theocratic states or their favored proxy warriors does not excuse the behavior of Israel.

There's no such thing as the good guys and the bad guys. But there is such a thing as just and unjust behavior.

In the context of the twice bombed powerplant in Lebanon (not to mention the prior bombing of the powerplant in Gaza), suffice it to say IDF tactics leave much to be desired. In the broader context the killing of the innocent is a deplorable act. It doesn't matter if its DOD, IDF, Hezbollah, Hamas, Irgun, or Lehi.