So... What if China's Wuhan Institute of Virology did leak covid-19?

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abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
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That's nuts I thought they were pretty similar. I'm shocked that two coronaviruses can be that genetically different. Isn't that like the difference between a worm an human? Or is that a different scale because it's genes vs nucleotides?
Viruses are really on a different scale because they evolve so quickly. For viruses in the same family, you can make comparison on the nucleotide level. However, once you move outside of families, you can really only make comparisons at the protein (amino acid level). And when you are talking proteins, <30-40% similarity between viral families is common. The difficulty with studying viral taxonomy is the absence of highly conserved genes that all viruses have. It is only within the past 10 years that there's been development of a "tree of life" for viruses, and even that is very incomplete. That's different for living organisms like archea, bacteria, and eukaryotes (animals, plants, fungi, etc) where common genes do exist (the ribosomal subunits are most often used for that type of comparison).

If you want to get into a rabbit hole, you can read about viral dark matter. Scientists have really powerful sequencing technology that they can sequence every DNA/RNA molecule present in a sample. They can easily determine that many of the molecules originate from humans, bacteria, viruses, plants, etc. However, nearly 50% of the genetic material doesn't align to any known organism/virus. It is presumed this leftover genetic material is from novel viruses and microorganisms, but scientists lack the "language" to know what they are. It is very similar to dark matter. The equations and math suggests that dark matter exists, but physicists lack the capacity to actually know what dark matter is.
 
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Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
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As explained by Bitek, you need to specify what you mean by "biological" and "create." This is exactly the problem earlier, unless you specify two people could be talking about two very different things.

And why do you need to feel something is "impossible?" I presume you live in an area with another building down the street. Prove to everyone that it is impossible that building really is the brain center of the secret pedophile cabal run by Hillary. Asking one to prove a negative, well, falls into that area of proving a negative. We have to live in reality and the evidence and logic does not support it was created in the lab.

Could the Chinese have taken a sample of a Coronavirus found in a bat population and manipulated that virus in the Wuhan lab to become the original strain of SARS-Cov-2 that started the pandemic?

To me we are looking at 3 possibilities. Can the bottom one be eliminated as a possibility? I keep hearing contradictory information from various "experts" about the bottom one.

SARS-Cov-2 was in the wild and you have a transfer from animal to human in the wild.

SARS-Cov-2 was in the wild and a sample was collected and taken to the Wuhan lab for study and then you had accidental exposure to a lab worker which then resulted in transmission to the public.

A sample of Coronavirus was collected in the wild and then while undergoing study in the lab it was manipulated to become SARS-Cov-2 and you then had accidental exposure to lab worker which then resulted in transmission to the public.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
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Perhaps I'm missing it in post #605, but where exactly does it state that WIV had genetic data on the virus "prior" to the outbreak? It is widely accepted that the virus was probably already circulating in the Wuhan area in December 2019, possibly even into November. Where exactly does it state they had viral sequences before that?

Second, where does it state in your link that WIV requested other facilities (per that story in the US) delete all records? They have an agreement, but nothing from your link states that WIV actually made that request.
In the quoted text, it said they had fingerprint data from the virus which was deleted in 2019 when the outbreak occurred. Unless I'm really reaching, my inclination is to believe that means they had the genetic information prior to the outbreak. Mind you, if this has actually been debunked, it's worth ignoring.
No, not the DNI report. The WHO one with the guy from U of A. I think there's even a quote from Bloom (guy cited earlier) that he didn't disagree with their analysis.
Not familiar with that one, but I'm more inclined to trust experts than my suspicions.
 

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
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In the quoted text, it said they had fingerprint data from the virus which was deleted in 2019 when the outbreak occurred. Unless I'm really reaching, my inclination is to believe that means they had the genetic information prior to the outbreak. Mind you, if this has actually been debunked, it's worth ignoring.

Where in the quoted text says 2019? I'm a bit confused because everything that story is based on is a preprint, found here. It appears the data was requested to be removed off of NCBI SRA sometime during the spring of 2020, with the data orginating from samples collected in January 2020.

I don't see anything about before the pandemic occurring, so there actually zero evidence Wuhan had or made public CoV-2 sequences well before Nov/Dec 2019.
 

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,071
902
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Could the Chinese have taken a sample of a Coronavirus found in a bat population and manipulated that virus in the Wuhan lab to become the original strain of SARS-Cov-2 that started the pandemic?

A sample of Coronavirus was collected in the wild and then while undergoing study in the lab it was manipulated to become SARS-Cov-2 and you then had accidental exposure to lab worker which then resulted in transmission to the public.

As mentioned, this claim is not supported by evidence or logic.

Put yourself in the shoes of a coronavirus researcher back in 2010, or even 2015. 100's of coronavirus genomes have been identified from bat samples. Which one's are you going to study? No coronavirologist has the capacity to study every single genome, so you have to pick. Which one's? Well, history told us what happened. Virologists studied two bat coronaviruses very closely related to SARS-CoV-1 and I recall one other similar to MERS. Why would anyone choose a virus that is 20% different compared to SARS-CoV-1 and 50% different from MERS? There was zero reason to do that, especially when there's many bat coronaviruses with much higher priority to study. There has been zero grants supporting this type of research of viruses in the CoV-2 clade, so where did the money come from to start this work?

Let's then ignore this logic, and somebody did something that makes zero logical sense and started studying RatG13 or some other mystery virus. You cannot just decide you are going to study this virus and have hundreds of results in a few months. It is a completely novel virus, never characterized, never even grown in laboratory conditions. So guess what? You have to spend months (absolute best case scenario) or a few years just growing and characterizing the virus in cells and in mice. Ok, but how do you manipulate the virus? Well, you don't just magically wave you hands and mutate it, but you have to build a reverse genetics system. This will also take months or years, and most labs in the world would have the genome synthesized using a commercial partner. So there would be an obvious paper trail. But even once the genome is synthesized, there are many problems getting the reverse genetics system working, so there's several more months to years worth of work, assuming you know the best cell line to use.

And then once you have the system working, you have to make all the mutations. If you started with RatG13, you have to carefully make 1,000 mutations, and be careful because each mutation could completely kill the virus. How are you going to do this? This would take many years and tons of luck. In 3 years, CoV-2 has only mutated ~50 times with a few deletions. How are we going to do that with this engineered virus and not take 60 years? Ok, let's say they had a magical virus that was much closer to CoV-2, you're still going to have to mutate it, right? More time.

And then given the claims of others about furin cleavage sites, why would a virologist select a crappy furin cleavage site and insert it into a bat coronavirus that nobody knows if it could infect humans? On top of that, you have to do all this work and be careful your furin cleavage site doesn't get deleted because that's what happens in cell culture. Then this virus needs to be infectable in humans, so you spend even more years enhancing its ability to infect humans. But you have to do this blindly since you have no idea what will be a "good" mutation. Yet, you do this while not introducing the D614G mutation or any other mutation that rapidly appeared in CoV-2 once it entered the pandemic phase. Hmmm.

Oh, and where did the money, researchers and time come from to get all of this work done? Oh, and yet leave no obvious paper trail and purposely keep it hidden from other researchers. And all this work was done... for exactly what reason? To build a super coronavirus, for what purpose? A super coronavirus that no vaccine or treatment exists. Hmmm.

TLDR: Anyone who tries to claim that the Chinese engineered SARS-CoV-2 doesn't think about the actual steps that would be needed to do it. They just handwave and expect people to ignore the immense amount of work, financial support, and non-sensical decisions that would be needed along the way. Oh, and this would have to be done in such a way to leave no evidence and no evidence within the virus itself, and essentially invent new coronavirus biology along the way.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,366
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As mentioned, this claim is not supported by evidence or logic.

Thank you for explaining that. There is a lot of contradictory information out there on this topic and you laid out very well.

So based on what you are saying is that the third possibility can be eliminated and we are left with only two possibilities for how the virus started.

SARS-Cov-2 was in the wild and you have a transfer from animal to human in the wild.

SARS-Cov-2 was in the wild and a sample was collected and taken to the Wuhan lab for study and then you had accidental exposure to a lab worker which then resulted in transmission to the public.
 

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,071
902
136
Thank you for explaining that. There is a lot of contradictory information out there on this topic and you laid out very well.

So based on what you are saying is that the third possibility can be eliminated and we are left with only two possibilities for how the virus started.

SARS-Cov-2 was in the wild and you have a transfer from animal to human in the wild.

SARS-Cov-2 was in the wild and a sample was collected and taken to the Wuhan lab for study and then you had accidental exposure to a lab worker which then resulted in transmission to the public.
I'd say until there's legitimate evidence to the contrary. the idea that SARS-CoV-2 was engineered in a lab is more conspiracy theory than anything else.

The other two are realistic possibilities, and given China's lack of transparency, we'll probably never know.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,179
12,302
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Where in the quoted text says 2019? I'm a bit confused because everything that story is based on is a preprint, found here. It appears the data was requested to be removed off of NCBI SRA sometime during the spring of 2020, with the data orginating from samples collected in January 2020.

I don't see anything about before the pandemic occurring, so there actually zero evidence Wuhan had or made public CoV-2 sequences well before Nov/Dec 2019.
I misread the dates, thought the article was published in 2020. I have a memory of this from earlier in the pandemic referencing 2019 but memories are flawed so I won't expound further.
 

Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
8,959
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' “We can and do know what the scientific evidence shows,” Rasmussen tweeted Tuesday. “The available evidence still shows zoonotic emergence at Huanan market.”

Many of those citing the report as proof, however, seemed uninterested in the evidence. They seized on the report and said it suggests the experts were wrong when it came to masks and vaccines, too.

“School closures were a failed & catastrophic policy. Masks are ineffective. And harmful,” said a tweet that’s been read nearly 300,000 times since Sunday. “COVID came from a lab. Everything we skeptics said was true.” '
________________________________________________________________________

"Screw the evidence, our proof is our feels!" .... I'll give you one guess on the political leanings of these 'skeptics'. :rolleyes:
 
Dec 10, 2005
24,135
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' “We can and do know what the scientific evidence shows,” Rasmussen tweeted Tuesday. “The available evidence still shows zoonotic emergence at Huanan market.”

Many of those citing the report as proof, however, seemed uninterested in the evidence. They seized on the report and said it suggests the experts were wrong when it came to masks and vaccines, too.

“School closures were a failed & catastrophic policy. Masks are ineffective. And harmful,” said a tweet that’s been read nearly 300,000 times since Sunday. “COVID came from a lab. Everything we skeptics said was true.” '
________________________________________________________________________

"Screw the evidence, our proof is our feels!" .... I'll give you one guess on the political leanings of these 'skeptics'. :rolleyes:
These people are idiots, because the response should have always been mitigation and vaccines regardless of origin.

Zoonotic from wet market: try to contain, massive testing campaign, masks, develop vaccines and therapeutics
Lab leak of a cataloged, natural virus: try to contain, massive testing campaign, masks, develop vaccines and therapeutics
Lab leak of an engineered virus: try to contain, massive testing campaign, masks, develop vaccines and therapeutics
Biological weapon: try to contain, massive testing campaign, masks, develop vaccines and therapeutics
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
11,644
8,135
136
These people are idiots, because the response should have always been mitigation and vaccines regardless of origin.

Zoonotic from wet market: try to contain, massive testing campaign, masks, develop vaccines and therapeutics
Lab leak of a cataloged, natural virus: try to contain, massive testing campaign, masks, develop vaccines and therapeutics
Lab leak of an engineered virus: try to contain, massive testing campaign, masks, develop vaccines and therapeutics
Biological weapon: try to contain, massive testing campaign, masks, develop vaccines and therapeutics

I'm seeing a pattern here ...
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,596
9,979
136

' “We can and do know what the scientific evidence shows,” Rasmussen tweeted Tuesday. “The available evidence still shows zoonotic emergence at Huanan market.”

Many of those citing the report as proof, however, seemed uninterested in the evidence. They seized on the report and said it suggests the experts were wrong when it came to masks and vaccines, too.

“School closures were a failed & catastrophic policy. Masks are ineffective. And harmful,” said a tweet that’s been read nearly 300,000 times since Sunday. “COVID came from a lab. Everything we skeptics said was true.” '
________________________________________________________________________

"Screw the evidence, our proof is our feels!" .... I'll give you one guess on the political leanings of these 'skeptics'. :rolleyes:
Like I said, these morons always pushed the idea that if it came from a lab we could just ignore it.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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These people are idiots, because the response should have always been mitigation and vaccines regardless of origin.

Zoonotic from wet market: try to contain, massive testing campaign, masks, develop vaccines and therapeutics
Lab leak of a cataloged, natural virus: try to contain, massive testing campaign, masks, develop vaccines and therapeutics
Lab leak of an engineered virus: try to contain, massive testing campaign, masks, develop vaccines and therapeutics
Biological weapon: try to contain, massive testing campaign, masks, develop vaccines and therapeutics

Deep State doesn't want you to know about taking livestock dewormer to ward off Chinese CCP bioweapon. No distancing/masks/vaccine needed.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,280
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The bullshit machine working overtime flooding the zone with, well, shit. The bullshit machine being social media. Wonder if Russia is in it or they're just laughing at people doing their job for them.
 
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thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,075
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Deep State doesn't want you to know about taking livestock dewormer to ward off Chinese CCP bioweapon. No distancing/masks/vaccine needed.
And the funny thing is that the loons who think Ivermectin is some wonder cure don't even take 5 minutes to look into why there was some initial appearance it may be effective. I spent a bit of time reading up on why there was this belief that Ivermectin would cure COVID.

Firstly, no double blind studies have shown Ivermectin as having any noticeable effect on COVID-19. Some doctors in some parts of the world, but not in America, noticed improvements among patients who were being treated with Ivermectin. Most of us know the purpose of Ivermectin is in treatment of parasites like worms and mites (hence why it's often referred to as horse dewormer). And it has that same use in humans. In the US it is very uncommon for parasitic worms to affect humans, but in some countries that's a serious problem. Dealing with those worms often exacerbates the effects of COVID-19 in humans because your body is fighting multiple things. In addition, the steroids that are often used to fight coronaviruses actually strengthen these parasites. So taking Ivermectin while being treated for COVID had the appearance of working against COVID because it was actually doing what it's supposed to do, and killing the parasites that the patients also had. I should note I am not a doctor or medical researcher of any kind, I just dove down a few rabbit holes and this is what I've read from some study conclusions.
 

brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,330
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Deep State doesn't want you to know about taking livestock dewormer to ward off Chinese CCP bioweapon. No distancing/masks/vaccine needed.
Your "horse dewormer" has been approved for use in humans by the FDA since 1987. Fairly certain that horse dewormers are not approved for use in humans.
 
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Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
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Your "horse dewormer" has been approved for use in humans by the FDA since 1987. Fairly certain that horse dewormers are not approved for use in humans.
Hey. Dipshit. Big difference between the pill form (lower dose) of Ivermectin for humans compared to the paste variety made for equine/bovine use (much higher dose.) People WERE buying the horse paste from farm supply stores. But keep being a dishonest cvnt, since it's all you do here.
Idiots that were wrong about Covid are still blathering along and still repeating the Democrat's and the CCP's narrative.
Wrong about Covid how, exactly? What fucking narrative?
JFC you're a goddamned idiot. How about expounding on your empty, retarded claims once in a while? Nope, of course you won't.
 
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Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
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Your "horse dewormer" has been approved for use in humans by the FDA since 1987. Fairly certain that horse dewormers are not approved for use in humans.

Adriamycin has been approved for longer than that, why don't you use that for treating covid/flu/RSV?