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So the rich do actually pay more taxes. MUCH more

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Jhhnn said:
Hogwash. FICA is 6.2% SS for the employee, same for the employer. Self employed pay 12.4%. Add 2.9% medicare to that to get the total. Employed people pay 9.1%, self employed pay 15.3% total. SS is capped at ~$100K/yr, iirc. Nobody pays SS on capital gains, either.

I'm sure your other numbers came from your nether orifice, as well.
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Why try to argue with someone about their own paycheck. You will lose.
 
And they get more for those taxes. The purposes of government are to protect property and promote business. Fee for service.
 
Incorruptible said:
The rich pay enough in taxes. The tax system needs to be completely changed and replaced with a flat tax.
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So what you're saying is that the poor working schmuck who couldn't afford a lawyer for a traffic ticket should pay the same tax rate as the rich guy who keeps a whole firm of lawyers and lobbyists on retainer?
 
Vic said:
So what you're saying is that the poor working schmuck who couldn't afford a lawyer for a traffic ticket should pay the same tax rate as the rich guy who keeps a whole firm of lawyers and lobbyists on retainer?
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Absolutely. That working schmuck needs some skin in the game.
 
Vic said:
So what you're saying is that the poor working schmuck who couldn't afford a lawyer for a traffic ticket should pay the same tax rate as the rich guy who keeps a whole firm of lawyers and lobbyists on retainer?
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Interesting, I didn't know they would pay the same amount in taxes with the same tax rate. Gotta love lefty logic.
 
The truly wealthy shouldn't be in favor of equal tax rates regardless of income. The poorest people in the country may not pay any taxes, but it's not like the system benefits them a great deal as it is... But if you start taxing people to the point where they can't afford to eat, well, history shows that they will kill you. Right now the rich reap the benefits of exorbitant wealth and they're deified by the poor who aspire to be them; what possible reason would they have to want to change that?
 
Vic said:
Answer the question. If the poor schmuck and the rich guy pay the same tax rate, are they getting the same return on their investment?

Fee for service. If you get more, you should be paying more.
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What's with this "logic"?

Where *anywhere* in life do you get credited more service based on the percentage of income an amount represents to you vs. the total dollar amount paid?

Does a car dealer give you more car because $10,000 to you is the same percentage of your income than $100,000 is to someone else? So the dealer is supposed to give you the same car for that vs the guy who brings 100k to the table because of your "percentage of income fairness" bonus? Or the 100k person is supposed to pay 5x more to make things fair for you? Percentage of income means so much to everyone else vs raw dollar amounts, doesn't it?

Return on investment? Show me where anyone anywhere will give you the same return on your 10k investment vs someone else's 100k investment vs another person's 1000k investment vs.... because "percentage of income" is what matters most to guage the values paid and therefore amount of return.

Please enlighten us.
 
Even if the rate is the same, the rich man is paying more. In this example the guy making 10x more will also pay 10x more in taxes. Can't get more fair than that
 
Incorruptible said:
Don't bother. Some of these leftists aren't going to be happy until the rich pay over 50%.
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And the macros begin again. It's more that you won't be happy until the middle class are taxed into abject poverty while the rich pay nothing and get everything.
The poor working schmuck pays 15.3% of his income into social security and medicare for 50 years and, according to you, he doesn't deserve a dime back because that's an entitlement, that's "free stuff." But the rich guy? Give him all the tax breaks and subsidies possible because he's a "job creator."
It's amazing how you can't see how you're just a slave. A gutless lackey.
 
Vic said:
And the macros begin again. It's more that you won't be happy until the middle class are taxed into abject poverty while the rich pay nothing and get everything.
The poor working schmuck pays 15.3% of his income into social security and medicare for 50 years and, according to you, he doesn't deserve a dime back because that's an entitlement, that's "free stuff." But the rich guy? Give him all the tax breaks and subsidies possible because he's a "job creator."
It's amazing how you can't see how you're just a slave. A gutless lackey.
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You're such a dipshit.

Where did anyone say a working person who pays taxes shouldn't get anything back for it, and that getting what you PAY for is "free stuff?"

The problem with simpletons like you is you want to apply the above to people who pay *NO* taxes at all, and even for people that aren't citizens.

Meanwhile, why shouldn't people who pay the most taxes get tax breaks? And who says the "working schmuck" shouldn't get tax breaks either?

You just want the low end tax payer to be credited with "percentage of income" being a higher measure of value than actual dollar amounts (when in reality its not a measure of value used by *anyone* for *anything* in the financial world) while you use it as an excuse to hang ridiculous tax burdens on higher incomes simply because you feel its justified and your nanny state deserves whatever it wants.

Cut it with the blatant dishonesty while you claim it's everyone else.
 
Sea Ray said:
Even if the rate is the same, the rich man is paying more. In this example the guy making 10x more will also pay 10x more in taxes. Can't get more fair than that
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So, uhh, we should apply "fair" taxes in a compensation system that is anything but fair in the first place, ignore the marginal utility of money in the process.

If a family is 10% short on the rent, they get evicted. If a multi multi billionaire is 10% short on the amount they reinvest every year, their real lives are affected not in the slightest.

Perhaps you could explain the lifestyle differences involved in having an after tax income of $1B vs $2B or $3B.

Are you sufficiently naive to think that the desire to keep that $B difference through lower taxes is about anything other than power, the power to run other people's lives?
 
Jhhnn said:
So, uhh, we should apply "fair" taxes in a compensation system that is anything but fair in the first place, ignore the marginal utility of money in the process.

If a family is 10% short on the rent, they get evicted. If a multi multi billionaire is 10% short on the amount they reinvest every year, their real lives are affected not in the slightest.

Perhaps you could explain the lifestyle differences involved in having an after tax income of $1B vs $2B or $3B.

Are you sufficiently naive to think that the desire to keep that $B difference through lower taxes is about anything other than power, the power to run other people's lives?
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There is absolutely nothing more fair than the free job market. One party has something they want done, the other party wants compensation, and the two either come to a mutually acceptable agreement or walk away. Likely neither party gets what they would like to have, but both get what they agree is acceptable.

And "the marginal utility of money" is merely yet another way of saying "I can spend money better than the person who earns it."
 
Zaap said:
You're such a dipshit.

Where did anyone say a working person who pays taxes shouldn't get anything back for it, and that getting what you PAY for is "free stuff?"

The problem with simpletons like you is you want to apply the above to people who pay *NO* taxes at all, and even for people that aren't citizens.

Meanwhile, why shouldn't people who pay the most taxes get tax breaks? And who says the "working schmuck" shouldn't get tax breaks either?

You just want the low end tax payer to be credited with "percentage of income" being a higher measure of value than actual dollar amounts (when in reality its not a measure of value used by *anyone* for *anything* in the financial world) while you use it as an excuse to hang ridiculous tax burdens on higher incomes simply because you feel its justified and your nanny state deserves whatever it wants.

Cut it with the blatant dishonesty while you claim it's everyone else.
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You realize you're defending Incorruptible, right? The biggest and worst troll bot on this forum?
And yes, he has said those things. He's quite open about eliminating all entitlements, in fact, including social security. To which I say, sure, but I want my money back.
Oh, and everyone who works pays FICA. Get a clue.
 
Zaap said:
You're such a dipshit.

Where did anyone say a working person who pays taxes shouldn't get anything back for it, and that getting what you PAY for is "free stuff?"

Thank you. I never said that. He made it up on purpose to attack me and he won't provide any proof. He is purposely misinterpreting what I say to attack me.

The problem with simpletons like you is you want to apply the above to people who pay *NO* taxes at all, and even for people that aren't citizens.

Agree. He wants to apply this to me and make up more crap. He won't say anything about people paying no taxes yet getting all kinds of free stuff.

Meanwhile, why shouldn't people who pay the most taxes get tax breaks? And who says the "working schmuck" shouldn't get tax breaks either?

He doesn't understand that though. EVERYONE SHOULD GET TAX CUTS. Never did I ever suggest tax cuts for the rich and for everyone else to stay the same. He should at least back this up or stop lying. Again he spreads lies about those who disagree with him.

There is nothing wrong with people getting their own money back.

You just want the low end tax payer to be credited with "percentage of income" being a higher measure of value than actual dollar amounts (when in reality its not a measure of value used by *anyone* for *anything* in the financial world) while you use it as an excuse to hang ridiculous tax burdens on higher incomes simply because you feel its justified and your nanny state deserves whatever it wants.

Cut it with the blatant dishonesty while you claim it's everyone else.
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Responses in bold.
 
werepossum said:
There is absolutely nothing more fair than the free job market. One party has something they want done, the other party wants compensation, and the two either come to a mutually acceptable agreement or walk away. Likely neither party gets what they would like to have, but both get what they agree is acceptable.

And "the marginal utility of money" is merely yet another way of saying "I can spend money better than the person who earns it."
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Yada, yada, yada. Standard duh-versionary propaganda.

Enormous incomes are not earned through working, but rather investing. That investment requires wealth- earned, inherited or leveraged. Not everybody has that, nor can we all obtain it simultaneously. Your pablum doesn't apply.

A great deal of income is earned by dint of ownership rather than work. People who are extremely wealthy don't necessarily manage their empires personally, at all. They hire people to do it. Their sole claim to that income is ownership of the means to produce it.

Middle class conceptualizations of work & reward simply do not apply.

A lot of factors beyond our control influence our paths in life & our incomes, as well. Family background. Native talent & intelligence. Opportunity. The notion that we all have equal opportunity is a joke. If we did, GWB probably would have been the town drunk somewhere in Texas.

The notion that the enormous concentration of wealth & income achieved over the last 35 years has no effect on the rest of America is equally absurd. It's a form of hoarding.

None of this is about me personally, so you'd do well not to pretend that it is. I've done well, in part because I've been lucky to have the opportunities afforded by New Deal America when I was younger man. Opportunities for younger people are much scarcer, in no small part because opportunity been concentrated along with wealth & income in this brave new world of trickle down Reaganomics.
 
The ultra rich are mostly generating there income from investments and not labor. They are actually called the investment class and because of asset allocation strategy to utilize low taxes on investments most ultra rich pay a much lower tax rate than those in the working class. The multimillionaire who like Mitt Romney can generate most of there wealth through investments like tax free municipal bond funds, Qualified dividend, and long term capital gains. As well as having a domicile in a TAX-FREE state like Texas, Florida, Nevada, or Washington boosts there individual income and lowers the total tax liability.

I really get mad when all these arguments only take in account labor income and not investment income which disproportionately rich individuals take part in vs. middle class which need their income for living expense. So if your honest in looking at total income (investment and labor) and total tax liability % the rich do not pay more than middle class individuals.
 
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