so, socialism works?

[sandorski]

Granted, but have we ever seen one arise in a location that wasn't already impoverished, already stuck in widespread misery and suffering?

I don't disagree, my point is not that they are good, my point is that they work and they can work well. The Five Year Programs industrialized Russia at a tremendous speed - far faster than even a lot of richer nations. That is what so often irritates me about this discussion is that people are either ignorant of or feel they must lie about what happened to oppose command economy instead of opposing it on legitimate grounds such as that an unaccountable state telling everyone what to do, no exceptions, is an affront to liberty. That alone should be enough to oppose it even though works.

Just to add to your points.

Japan and South Korea used a lighter version of the 5 year programs to develop their economies. A well instituted Government is capable of accomplishing great and beneficial things.

Some seem to think that the US FF were Anarcho-Capitalist-Libertarians. This is far from the truth. They knew the importance of Government, that it was essential. However, they also knew that it could be very dangerous if its' power was not limited in certain ways.

 

[Sheep221]

I was not aware of the fact that toilet paper is luxury good in some countries.

 

[berzerker60]

Some countries, like most of humans who have ever lived (toilet paper hasn't been around forever, certainly not for everyone's everyday use), don't use toilet paper at all. They use some combination of water, their hands, and soap afterwards.

 

[lotus503]

Roads are a fundamentally important input in trucking businesses, gas stations, rest stops, and through these, basically every good ever sold. Just because you don't have to think about it because it seems "free" doesn't mean it's actually free or unimportant.

As others have said, "socialism" isn't an all-or-nothing thing that needs to be desperately fought. It's not a slippery slope, it's just a regular scale that you can adjust on a case-by-case basis. Socialized roads make great sense. Socialized police at better than private police for society. Socialized medicine would be a great bonus in my mind, economically and from a human welfare point of view. On the other hand, government businesses aren't going to respond as quickly to market changes private firms, so I'm not in favor of socializing computer production, for instance. On the other hand, some industries DO belong in semi-government control (really, just heavily regulated private control), in particular utility companies that have natural monopolies.

I really look forward to the day when the Cold Warriors have all died off and we can have a public conversation in this country about working together on particular things without instant resort to antiquated rhetoric from an ideological conflict that doesn't apply today.

/thread

 

[boomerang]

What's Wrong With Socialism?

The first two paragraphs follow.

I recall a conversation I had with a young coworker in the latter weeks of Obama's campaign for president. Joe the plumber had just exposed the redistributionist bent of the candidate, and I expressed my assessment of Mr. Obama as a not-so-closeted socialist. My coworker then quite earnestly asked, "What's so wrong with socialism?"


I initially assumed he must be joking, although his face gave no indication. I stared at him dumbfounded, only later realizing I must have looked like a palsied old man -- my mouth working wordlessly, the incomprehension as evident on my face as the sincerity on his. It eventually dawned on me that he really didn't know what was wrong with socialism. I began reciting the litany of horrors: the crimes of the Holocaust, the purges of the Soviets, the thuggery and inhuman brutality of the statist regimes of the last century. The Nazis, for crissake! How could he not know about the evil of the Nazis? He listened to all of this, nodding his understanding as he recognized some of the events I described, but I could still see a question behind his eyes. While he had been taught of the existence of these atrocities, he had not been clued into the one commonality they shared. They were all perpetrated by the adherents of various forms of socialism. Indeed, such crimes were the only outcome possible.

 

[Abraxas]

What's Wrong With Socialism?

The first two paragraphs follow.

I get it. It's ironic because he blames the holocaust and Naziism on socialism (even though anyone with even the most marginal historical knowledge of Naziism would know that communists and socialists were thrown into the same concentration and death camps the Jews were) while appearing on a site with "thinker" in the name and not "dumbass". Hilarious!

 

[soulcougher73]

Capitalism works and socialism doesn't. If you don't like Capitalism even though you're benefiting from it right now then feel free to move to a socialist country.

Arent you living on welfare? LOL

Fucking tool.

 

[soulcougher73]

A road is a means of production?

Wow really? Try 1st grade again please.

 

[Orignal Earl]

What's Wrong With Socialism?

The first two paragraphs follow.

I often find myself doing the same thing that guys co worker is doing
Sitting and watching some wing nut spew out a bunch of jibberish

 

[Incorruptible]

Arent you living on welfare? LOL

Fucking tool.

No I am not on welfare. I oppose welfare and want it eliminated.

Some morons on here accused me of being on welfare but they didn't provide proof.

 

[boomerang]

I often find myself doing the same thing that guys co worker is doing
Sitting and watching some wing nut spew out a bunch of jibberish

Who explains it to you afterwards? I mean the parts you can remember.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Who explains it to you afterwards? I mean the parts you can remember.

I'm doing it again right now in 2 threads.
This one and at Incor in another thread

 

[bryanl]

Hugo Chavez socialism does not discredit socialism any more than George W. Bush capitalism discredits capitalism.

 

[Zorkorist]

Your kids, are now indebted to this thing called Government.

Good luck to them.

-John

 

[unokitty]

 

[nehalem256]

I get it. It's ironic because he blames the holocaust and Naziism on socialism (even though anyone with even the most marginal historical knowledge of Naziism would know that communists and socialists were thrown into the same concentration and death camps the Jews were) while appearing on a site with "thinker" in the name and not "dumbass". Hilarious!

Actually anyone with a marginal knowledge of history would know that Nazi's were the National Socialist Party.

But hey in case that isn't enough for you:

The Nazis argued that capitalism damages nations due to international finance, the economic dominance of big business, and Jewish influences.[152] Nazi propaganda posters in working class districts emphasized anti-capitalism, such as one that said: "The maintenance of a rotten industrial system has nothing to do with nationalism. I can love Germany and hate capitalism."[159]

Adolf Hitler, both in public and in private, expressed disdain for capitalism, arguing that it holds nations ransom in the interests of a parasitic cosmopolitan rentier class.[160] He opposed free market capitalism's profit-seeking impulses and desired an economy in which community interests would be upheld.[139]

Hitler distrusted capitalism for being unreliable due to its egotism, and he preferred a state-directed economy that is subordinated to the interests of the Volk.[160] Hitler said in 1927, "We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions."

:hmm:

 

[bononos]

Actually anyone with a marginal knowledge of history would know that Nazi's were the National Socialist Party.

But hey in case that isn't enough for you:
:hmm:

There is a big difference btwn socialism and fascism you know, despite what mises.org would have you believe.

 

[nehalem256]

There is a big difference btwn socialism and fascism you know, despite what mises.org would have you believe.

Why don't you tell how a party that:

(1) claims to be socialist (including in the party name).
(2) opposed free market capitalism
(3) hate capitalism
(4) argued that capitalism damages nations

Or how about another quote from a party leader

Another radical Nazi, Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels adamantly stressed the socialist character of Nazism, and claimed in his diary that if he were to pick between Bolshevism and capitalism, he said "in final analysis", "it would be better for us to go down with Bolshevism than live in eternal slavery under capitalism."

So really tell us how Nazi's are not socialists?

 

[lotus503]

Actually anyone with a marginal knowledge of history would know that Nazi's were the National Socialist Party.

But hey in case that isn't enough for you:


:hmm:

You need to understand the differences between fascism and socialism. When you do you can judge the nazis on what they did vs what they said.

 

[berzerker60]

Actually anyone with a marginal knowledge of history would know that Nazi's were the National Socialist Party.

They call themselves the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea, how DARE you suggest they're not a republic just like ours!!

 

[Matt1970]

They call themselves the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea, how DARE you suggest they're not a republic just like ours!!

Reminds me of the model T. You can pick any color you want as long as it's black. Difference is if you want to oppose the current political party you could find yourself in a prison camp for life, if you are lucky.

 

[unokitty]

Reminds me of the model T. You can pick any color you want as long as it's black. Difference is if you want to oppose the current political party you could find yourself in a prison camp for life, if you are lucky.

Unlike the US, where if you oppose the current political party, you would just get your income tax audited and, if you are a journalist, your phone line tapped.

Uno

 

[berzerker60]

Unlike the US, where if you oppose the current political party, you would just get your income tax audited and, if you are a journalist, your phone line tapped.

Uno

The irrelevance of this talking points regurgitation to the current discussion shouldn't disguise that neither of these are at all accurate. No one's income tax was audited in the recent IRS wrong-doings. No journalist's phones were tapped in the recent AP thing, though logs of who they had called / received calls from were accessed, which is still a serious issue but a different one. Also, the AP thing had nothing to do with which party they were involved in (I thought all members of the *~liberal media~* were commies anyway?).

 

[fskimospy]

The irrelevance of this talking points regurgitation to the current discussion shouldn't disguise that neither of these are at all accurate. No one's income tax was audited in the recent IRS wrong-doings. No journalist's phones were tapped in the recent AP thing, though logs of who they had called / received calls from were accessed, which is still a serious issue but a different one. Also, the AP thing had nothing to do with which party they were involved in (I thought all members of the *~liberal media~* were commies anyway?).

It's interesting that to the ultra right the media is simultaneously the lapdogs of the Obama administration and those being persecuted by him.

My guess is that any time the media does something they like, they are courageous truth tellers being persecuted by evil Obama. Anytime the media does something they don't like, they are Obama's cronies. Being able to hold both thoughts about organizations simultaneously is crucial to retaining the sense of perpetual victimhood that is central to modern US conservatism.

 

[nehalem256]

You need to understand the differences between fascism and socialism. When you do you can judge the nazis on what they did vs what they said.

Well why don't you please detail which nazi economic policies you think are more in line with free-market capitalism than socialsim

They call themselves the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea, how DARE you suggest they're not a republic just like ours!!

Which is why I then went on to detail their economic policies that were much more in line with socialism than free-market capitalism.