So now the big 3 want $50B. Apparently $25B is not enough.

[CLite]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Is that bad? Many would keep their jobs in these new companies. In regard to people buying cars, few are buying cars from these companies now anyway.

I think it would hurt the economy a lot and would hope to avoid it, however I can totally respect your opinion.

My anger is at fucking pundits and wallstreet in the news media that touted the bailout of the crooks getting huge compensations while lossing trillions of dollars. The UAW has NOTHING on those clowns, nor does the mismanagement of GM even begin to compare to the mismanagement of the securities and credit default swaps. Anyways, just my opinion.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

No.

If they file for chapter 11 the bond holders will become the new owners of the Big 3 and they will rip it apart piecemeal and sell it off. Additionally people would simply stop purchasing cars that they feel like could stop being serviced/produced in the future. Chapter 11 = the deathtoll.

Is that bad? Many would keep their jobs in these new companies. In regard to people buying cars, few are buying cars from these companies now anyway.

Exactly. It isn't like having a plant sold means the plant doesn't exist. Whomever purchases those piecemeal pieces of the big 3 would have all it takes to make a car company - lots of capital in those pieces, little debt since they got the pieces on the cheap, and plenty of highly skilled workers looking for jobs right in the cities with those newly purchased plants.

What it means is that a new car company will be formed from the pieces. Hopefully, that new car company will be better than those before them. We'll probably end up with an even bigger 2 instead of a big 3, but so what?

Yes, there will be a temporary decline in car buyers. But memory fades. When was the last time that you made a purchase where you've looked up ancient bankruptcy data from the manufacturer before you made your selection (eg. have you decided not to fly in a plane because at one point that route was probably run by a bankrupt airline)? Probably never. Buyers will leave, but they'll come back.

Credit default swaps are a whole other ballgame. Yes, it is legallized gambling with the least oversight of any other form of gambling. Yes, CDS are huge in terms of dollars. Yes, people made a good living temporarilly trading or creating them. But, that has nothing at all to do with the discussion about car manufacturers.

 

[CLite]

Originally posted by: dullard
But, that has nothing at all to do with the discussion about car manufacturers.

It has everything to do with it. The money they want to use for the car manufacturers is from the TARP fund that was made for the whole securities debacle. The car manufacturers are much more deserving than wallstreet.

 

[StageLeft]

You're right, if they want it out of the same bailout that's literally fueling billions in, for example, Goldman Sachs Christmas bonuses, by all means funnel that to the Big 3.

 

[sandorski]

CLite is correct, or more accurately, many Analysts feel that filing for Chapter 11 would cause Consumers to simply stop Buying their Vehicles. Auto Purchases are big Investments and spending those sums of $$ require some Confidence that the manufacturer will be around to honour the Warranty and maintain longterm QC.

Attempts to bust the Union in this manner is foolhardy and completely unnecessary for everyone except the Ideologues.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: sandorski
CLite is correct, or more accurately, many Analysts feel that filing for Chapter 11 would cause Consumers to simply stop Buying their Vehicles. Auto Purchases are big Investments and spending those sums of $$ require some Confidence that the manufacturer will be around to honour the Warranty and maintain longterm QC.

Attempts to bust the Union in this manner is foolhardy and completely unnecessary for everyone except the Ideologues.

So confidence would be better in a company that has a flawed model of business and is saddled with massive liabilities than in the same company if they restructured and came back healthier with a new more modern business model? I think if people really looked at the longterm - letting them restructure would be a much better option than keep throwing money down a hole.

 

[CLite]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

So confidence would be better in a company that has a flawed model of business and is saddled with massive liabilities than in the same company if they restructured and came back healthier with a new more modern business model? I think if people really looked at the longterm - letting them restructure would be a much better option than keep throwing money down a hole.

That's a noble enough position. I'm simply saying if they go bankrupt they will not restructure, they have close to 60 billion dollars in bonds. The owners of these bonds become the defacto owners of the scraps of the company and they will firesale them to the foreign automakers.

I believe delaying the failure with money that would be going to wallstreet (TARP fund), and trying to force a controlled restructure would be better for the economy. Whether or not a restructure would happen considering democrat's support of unions is a problem unfortunately, I guess I will just be an optomist.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: CLite

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

So confidence would be better in a company that has a flawed model of business and is saddled with massive liabilities than in the same company if they restructured and came back healthier with a new more modern business model? I think if people really looked at the longterm - letting them restructure would be a much better option than keep throwing money down a hole.

That's a noble enough position. I'm simply saying if they go bankrupt they will not restructure, they have close to 60 billion dollars in bonds. The owners of these bonds become the defacto owners of the scraps of the company and they will firesale them to the foreign automakers.

I believe delaying the failure with money that would be going to wallstreet (TARP fund), and trying to force a controlled restructure would be better for the economy. Whether or not a restructure would happen considering democrat's support of unions is a problem unfortunately, I guess I will just be an optomist.

I think that we're all forgetting that in recent years GM has made many changes from buyouts, great products, new contract with the union, etc. The effects of these changes would not be noticed until around 2010 or so. The big 3 recently got fucked thanks to oil prices and bad economy. If it weren't for this they would be right on track with there current plans. GM DOES NOT need to go bankrupt, they need just enough money to keep them going until the changes they made can start bearing fruits.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: CLite

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

So confidence would be better in a company that has a flawed model of business and is saddled with massive liabilities than in the same company if they restructured and came back healthier with a new more modern business model? I think if people really looked at the longterm - letting them restructure would be a much better option than keep throwing money down a hole.

That's a noble enough position. I'm simply saying if they go bankrupt they will not restructure, they have close to 60 billion dollars in bonds. The owners of these bonds become the defacto owners of the scraps of the company and they will firesale them to the foreign automakers.

I believe delaying the failure with money that would be going to wallstreet (TARP fund), and trying to force a controlled restructure would be better for the economy. Whether or not a restructure would happen considering democrat's support of unions is a problem unfortunately, I guess I will just be an optomist.

I think that we're all forgetting that in recent years GM has made many changes from buyouts, great products, new contract with the union, etc. The effects of these changes would not be noticed until around 2010 or so. The big 3 recently got fucked thanks to oil prices and bad economy. If it weren't for this they would be right on track with there current plans. GM DOES NOT need to go bankrupt, they need just enough money to keep them going until the changes they made can start bearing fruits.

But IF(a big if) they really are as bad off as they suggest they are, then I say - too F'n bad. You set yourself up for this and now you have to pay the price. They could easily file and restructure despite the claims of others that it'd be broken up... You might have pieces picked off but there won't be wholesale chunks taken.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: CLite

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

So confidence would be better in a company that has a flawed model of business and is saddled with massive liabilities than in the same company if they restructured and came back healthier with a new more modern business model? I think if people really looked at the longterm - letting them restructure would be a much better option than keep throwing money down a hole.

That's a noble enough position. I'm simply saying if they go bankrupt they will not restructure, they have close to 60 billion dollars in bonds. The owners of these bonds become the defacto owners of the scraps of the company and they will firesale them to the foreign automakers.

I believe delaying the failure with money that would be going to wallstreet (TARP fund), and trying to force a controlled restructure would be better for the economy. Whether or not a restructure would happen considering democrat's support of unions is a problem unfortunately, I guess I will just be an optomist.

I think that we're all forgetting that in recent years GM has made many changes from buyouts, great products, new contract with the union, etc. The effects of these changes would not be noticed until around 2010 or so. The big 3 recently got fucked thanks to oil prices and bad economy. If it weren't for this they would be right on track with there current plans. GM DOES NOT need to go bankrupt, they need just enough money to keep them going until the changes they made can start bearing fruits.

But IF(a big if) they really are as bad off as they suggest they are, then I say - too F'n bad. You set yourself up for this and now you have to pay the price. They could easily file and restructure despite the claims of others that it'd be broken up... You might have pieces picked off but there won't be wholesale chunks taken.

I hope you lose your job.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: CLite

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

So confidence would be better in a company that has a flawed model of business and is saddled with massive liabilities than in the same company if they restructured and came back healthier with a new more modern business model? I think if people really looked at the longterm - letting them restructure would be a much better option than keep throwing money down a hole.

That's a noble enough position. I'm simply saying if they go bankrupt they will not restructure, they have close to 60 billion dollars in bonds. The owners of these bonds become the defacto owners of the scraps of the company and they will firesale them to the foreign automakers.

I believe delaying the failure with money that would be going to wallstreet (TARP fund), and trying to force a controlled restructure would be better for the economy. Whether or not a restructure would happen considering democrat's support of unions is a problem unfortunately, I guess I will just be an optomist.

I think that we're all forgetting that in recent years GM has made many changes from buyouts, great products, new contract with the union, etc. The effects of these changes would not be noticed until around 2010 or so. The big 3 recently got fucked thanks to oil prices and bad economy. If it weren't for this they would be right on track with there current plans. GM DOES NOT need to go bankrupt, they need just enough money to keep them going until the changes they made can start bearing fruits.

But IF(a big if) they really are as bad off as they suggest they are, then I say - too F'n bad. You set yourself up for this and now you have to pay the price. They could easily file and restructure despite the claims of others that it'd be broken up... You might have pieces picked off but there won't be wholesale chunks taken.

I hope you lose your job.

Why would I lose my job?

Even if I did lose my job, I could easily find another one. I don't need some group of thugs to "protect" me.