So my 4th grader got into trouble today

[Phoenix86]

Something occurred where one girl received a warning from the school's councilor and the other girls parents called the school.

Both parents have an interest in discussing this with school staff and the school staff has an interest in discussing this with parents.

If OP would rather not be bothered when his daughter receives a warning from school councilor then I would say that's shitty parenting.

If the school administration has received a complaint from another parent and the event rose to the level where someone received a harassment warning then I would expect the school to contact the parents of the child that initiated the event and the victim of the event. If the School "ignores it" then I would say the school sucks.

If you don't agree, then so be it.

So.

Follow me closely here.

If instead of the school warning the student, if, as I suggested, and the law agrees with, they don't do that, why exactly involve that students parents?

Here. I'll break it down into steps.

1. Student A mentions god.
2. Student B complains to their parent.
3. Parents of student B complain to the school.
4. School tells them to pound sand, that it's protected speech and they cannot do anything about it. The school doesn't react. They don't do shit. Because they aren't allowed to.

That's it. Done. No need to get student A's parents involved. No reason to cause a confrontation.

If the school contacts student A's parents it's shitty school administration.

edit: damn, that was a bit harsh... sorry, bad day.

 

[pauldun170]

You're a poster child for risk management.

crap...
I can't disagree

 

[Atomic Playboy]

I thought schools were supposed to make people think and engage in lively discussion? The topic of religion is not so "hot button" that it cannot even be brought up. If that is the case how can topics like the crusades be taught in history? What about more recent wars between islamic militant groups? Why is it that god can be mentioned in the pledge of allegiance (which is still recited daily in my son's school), but one child cannot ask another a question about whether they believe in god or not?

Maybe we just went to different schools, but I wasn't learning about the Crusades when I was 9. I understand that asking a fellow classmate about God is completely benign in and of itself, but there was a follow-up with a different classmate who couldn't believe someone didn't believe in God; that could very quickly spiral into bullying the outsider. I experienced a small amount of that myself when the other kids found out I didn't have a dad (although I didn't complain to my parents about it, because honestly, what the hell; you've got to learn to interact with your peers at some point). If there's a chance that something could be perceived as bullying, especially in our current state of heightened sensitivity about such things, the teacher has an obligation to nip it in the bud.

My parents were schoolteachers, so I got to see firsthand the level of bullshit that parents will throw at teachers if they're at all concerned that their kids might get bullied, and the teachers have to take that into account. I don't think anything the OP's daughter did qualifies as harassment, but as soon as a complaint has been made, the teacher has an obligation to let the parents know that an inappropriate topic was being discussed and caution the daughter against doing it again. And, let's be honest, if a complaint was made, it's very possible that the innocuous question already resulted in some bullying that made the child feel uncomfortable.

As for nipping something in the bud because of what it "might" lead to. Give me a break. She asked a legitimate question. The other person could have simply replied that she did not want to talk about her religious beliefs and the whole thing would be a non-issue. But no, lets insulate our kids from any remotely challenging thing they might face in the real world, because god . . . (I mean, "deity") forbid little johnny should think, much less feel bad, about anything.

They're 9-year-olds, not adults. You can't expect a child to respond with "I feel that's an inappropriately personal line of questioning and I choose not to answer." That would probably lead to more bullying than just saying "No, I don't believe in God." There's a time and place for those discussions to happen, but it's not on the playground, unsupervised, by fourth graders.

Another question - why is the fact that the question was asked on school grounds important? Per your rationale the school has an obligation to nip conversations like that in the bud, because of what they might lead to. Well, what if the question was asked 1 foot outside of school grounds? How would the school's actions be effective to address the hypothetical issues you are concerned about?

The school has a legal obligation when it comes to children in their care. If the child is considered to be in the school's care, even if it's off school grounds (say on a field trip), they still have a legal obligation to protect the children. I used to work for an elementary school (in a removed capacity), and they made us learn the laws about when a child is considered to be in care of the school. I've conveniently forgotten the actual statutes (I never actually worked with the kids, so they didn't really apply), but the basic gist of it was "you're responsible for the kid until the second you hand them over to a parent/guardian, regardless of if they leave school grounds." So, yes, there's a legitimate legal obligation on teachers/school staff to protect their students. And if a parent is filing a complaint saying the school failed in that duty, they have to take it seriously.

Finally - how does asking a single question constitute harassment? The charge is either ridiculous or OP is leaving out some major details.

From: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/harassment
"harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious. Such activities may be the basis for a lawsuit if due to discrimination based on race or sex, a violation on the statutory limitations on collection agencies, involve revenge by an ex-spouse, or be shown to be a form of blackmail ("I'll stop bothering you, if you'll go to bed with me"). The victim may file a petition for a "stay away" (restraining) order, intended to prevent contact by the offensive party. A systematic pattern of harassment by an employee against another worker may subject the employer to a lawsuit for failure to protect the worker. (See: harass, sexual harassment)"

I never said what the daughter did was harassment, because I don't believe it was. It was an inappropriate topic to bring up, and I would assume it's being treated very leniently with a "let's not talk about that here" sort of attitude. If it's being treated as harassment, that's stupid. But part of learning how to interact with other people is when certain topics are considered unacceptable. If you're dealing with classmates or colleagues, best not to bring up religion or politics.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

1. Student A mentions god.
2. Student B complains to their parent.
3. Parents of student B complain to the school.
4. School tells them to pound sand, that it's protected speech and they cannot do anything about it. The school doesn't react. They don't do shit. Because they aren't allowed to.

That's not accurate. Schools can curtail the freedom of speech for a variety of reasons, including being "disruptive." Disruptive is a bit vague, but it can cover speech that leads to bullying, as bullying is disruptive to the learning process.

 

[Phoenix86]

It was an inappropriate topic to bring up, and I would assume it's being treated very leniently with a "let's not talk about that here" sort of attitude. If it's being treated as harassment, that's stupid. But part of learning how to interact with other people is when certain topics are considered unacceptable. If you're dealing with classmates or colleagues, best not to bring up religion or politics.

Who determines what's appropriate discussion for children?

Do you think the school has the ability to suppress expression of religion?

I'll competently agree with you it's best to avoid these topics for a litany of reasons.

 

[pauldun170]

So.

Follow me closely here.

If instead of the school warning the student, if, as I suggested, and the law agrees with, they don't do that, why exactly involve that students parents?

Here. I'll break it down into steps.

1. Student A mentions god.
2. Student B complains to their parent.
3. Parents of student B complain to the school.
4. School tells them to pound sand, that it's protected speech and they cannot do anything about it. The school doesn't react. They don't do shit. Because they aren't allowed to.

That's it. Done. No need to get student A's parents involved. No reason to cause a confrontation.

If the school contacts student A's parents it's shitty school administration.

Here is your problem.
You do not know what was said and you do not know what the details of the complaint are.

All you have is OP telling us that a 4 year old girl asked "Do you believe in god"

Meanwhile, what we do know is that something was said that resulted in parents being called and councilor issued warning.

Based on the info you have been provided, you say that "School should tell them to go pound sand".

My position is that I don't care what OP daughter claims or what the subject matter is.
My position is that if you have warnings issued to students and parents calling the school, to handle quickly and get resolution.

This give OP chance to get info from people other than an 8-9 year child.
It gives the other parents a chance to explain their position.
It gives the school a chance to explain why a warning was issued and how \what school policies are applicable.

 

[Phoenix86]

That's not accurate. Schools can curtail the freedom of speech for a variety of reasons, including being "disruptive." Disruptive is a bit vague, but it can cover speech that leads to bullying, as bullying is disruptive to the learning process.

How is that relevant here?

In this case, the school administration is not allowed to limit it. Because it didn't rise to an exclusion (I'm not claiming the freedom is absolute), and because of that they cannot suppresses it.

My point stands, the administrators should have squashed this, then monitored it.

 

[SamQuint]

Man I don't get it. You hear stories every year now about kids committing suicide because of bullying. Every story says the faculty and administration and parents did nothing. One kid here mentions God and all hell brakes out. Serious WTF

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

crap...
I can't disagree

How's it feel to be one of the drones responsible for zero tolerance?

 

[Phoenix86]

Here is your problem.
You do not know what was said and you do not know what the details of the complaint are.

You're being obtuse.

 

[pauldun170]

How's it feel to be one of the drones responsible for zero tolerance?

Slow down there. I'm not saying ANYTHING about whether or not the girl said something inappropriate.

I don't think what the girl claims warrants a warning or school action.

That why I said this

Either OP daughter isn't telling the whole story or the other student\parents are lying.

The meeting will hash it out.

 

[pauldun170]

You're being obtuse.

You're focusing on a claim made by a 8-9 year old child and going off on a rant.

I'm doing the exact opposite.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Slow down there. I'm not saying ANYTHING about whether or not the girl said something inappropriate.

I don't think what the girl claims warrants a warning or school action.

That why I said this

The problem is the meeting in the first place. The school should state their policy regarding what constitutes harassment to both sets of parents and what action, if any, is being taken. Then and, only then, should there be a meeting with the parents who disagree with the school's action. I don't believe any action is necessary and putting yourself in the same room with parents who have a political agenda can only lead to more problems than currently exist.

 

[pauldun170]

The problem is the meeting in the first place. The school should state their policy regarding what constitutes harassment to both sets of parents and what action, if any, is being taken. Then and, only then, should there be a meeting with the parents who disagree with the school's action. I don't believe any action is necessary and putting yourself in the same room with parents who have a political agenda can only lead to more problems than currently exist.

I agree with not putting parents in the same room. (Just re-read my original post. Was in work mode...if these were co-workers I'd get them all in the same room. Not parents in a school)

I do think that OP should be brought in to discuss the matter.

 

[Fritzo]

teach your daughter not to talk about religion, money or politics.

...or the Great Pumpkin.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I agree with not putting parents in the same room. (Just re-read my original post. Was in work mode...if these were co-workers I'd get them all in the same room. Not parents in a school)

I do think that OP should be brought in to discuss the matter.

What's to discuss? Other parents who don't have the same beliefs as you? As I said, the school simply needs to state what it's policies are. If you don't agree then, there should be a meeting.

 

[pauldun170]

What's to discuss? Other parents who don't have the same beliefs as you? As I said, the school simply needs to state what it's policies are. If you don't agree then, there should be a meeting.

So far, OP has gotten info from his daughter.
Are you saying that OP doesn't need to hear other testimony?
Are you saying that the word of 1 child is all you need to hear?

Personally, I'd want to discuss with the school staff what exactly occurred and why the daughter got a warning for actions committed by another student.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I remember back in 6th grade when I was going through my religious phase, this obnoxious nerdy atheistic kid (the only one in the school scrawnier and pastier than myself) went up to me and said "God is a bitch, I dare him to strike me down right now if he exists". I should have reported that bastard.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

So far, OP has gotten info from his daughter.
Are you saying that OP doesn't need to hear other testimony?
Are you saying that the word of 1 child is all you need to hear?

Personally, I'd want to discuss with the school staff what exactly occurred and why the daughter got a warning for actions committed by another student.

Kids get 'warnings' all the time for running, chewing gum, talking in class and, the list goes on. I would chalk it up to the rampant pc crap in schools unless there are actual penalties involved. Why are you so anxious to involve yourself in what most likely is bureaucracy trying to cover their asses? You aren't going to change whatever the school's policies are and you aren't going to change the mindset that allowed the zero tolerance abomination. As a parent, until there are real life consequences, my kid's word is good enough for me.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

So, yes, there's a legitimate legal obligation on teachers/school staff to protect their students. And if a parent is filing a complaint saying the school failed in that duty, they have to take it seriously.

In this case, protect them from what? A question? Unless facts are not being shared this is not a scenario in which there is even a modicum of risk that the child being asked the question will be subject to physical or mental harm. You have worked in an elementary school, so I am sure you are well acquainted with what 8 years typically tease each other about. And faith (or lack thereof) in god ain't one of em. Not by an extremely long shot.

That said I understand your underlying point, which is that the school has to take the complaint seriously. That is a different point than what I am trying to argue, which is that the school should not (and probably does not) have a legal obligation to protect kids from this type of question.

They're 9-year-olds, not adults. You can't expect a child to respond with "I feel that's an inappropriately personal line of questioning and I choose not to answer." That would probably lead to more bullying than just saying "No, I don't believe in God." There's a time and place for those discussions to happen, but it's not on the playground, unsupervised, by fourth graders.

Huh? Maybe I'm dense, but is asking a question now considered bullying? How does that work?

I never said what the daughter did was harassment, because I don't believe it was. It was an inappropriate topic to bring up, and I would assume it's being treated very leniently with a "let's not talk about that here" sort of attitude.

I'm not religious in the least bit. But why is religion an inappropriate topic for children to talk about in school or any other location?

If it's being treated as harassment, that's stupid.

Agreed.

But part of learning how to interact with other people is when certain topics are considered unacceptable. If you're dealing with classmates or colleagues, best not to bring up religion or politics.

Again I ask - why are religion and politics unacceptable for discussion in school?

 

[alkemyst]

This may, perhaps, be the perfect setup for trolling.

But in all honesty: when questions become against the rules it is knowledge that loses.

4th graders should be able to say "In my church a talking snake was created 6k years ago and tricked women in to ruining the lives of men" and teacher should be able to answer what science has to say about it.

Shutting down questions = increasing ignorance

Scary you are going to be a teacher.

It's none of a teacher's business to speak to a child about their religion.

 

[Phoenix86]

You're focusing on a claim made by a 8-9 year old child and going off on a rant.

I'm doing the exact opposite.

So does the OP, the teacher, the administrator, the other student and the other student's parents.

We either go off what was posted or don't bother posting anything to any thread anywhere unless you 100% know all facts.

So yeah, your version has us closing the forums because no one knows for sure about much of anything, or, ya know, we can do what people have been doing since before the discovery of fire.

If the story changes, I'm sure my opinion would too. Just because you take something at face value doesn't mean you assume it's the only possibility. To discourage a discussion taken at face value is obtuse.

Look at it this way, if the OP is correct and the kid's being punished for what were told here, a discussion here prior to him visiting the administrators would be helpful. Right?

If he's not correct there's a million other versions of what could have happened, there's no reason to discuss those possibilities.

 

[pauldun170]

Kids get 'warnings' all the time for running, chewing gum, talking in class and, the list goes on. I would chalk it up to the rampant pc crap in schools unless there are actual penalties involved. Why are you so anxious to involve yourself in what most likely is bureaucracy trying to cover their asses? You aren't going to change whatever the school's policies are and you aren't going to change the mindset that allowed the zero tolerance abomination. As a parent, until there are real life consequences, my kid's word is good enough for me.

It doesn't have anything to do with "PC"
I has to do with getting to the bottom of something that resulted in a child getting a warning and parents of another child calling the school.

No one on this forum knows anything about what occurred. Not even the OP until he speaks to the teacher.

If it turns out to be PC bullshit the OP will report back as such. If the OP reports back that the teacher explained that his daughter is falling into a bad crowd (such as the girl who caused the trouble to begin with ) then that will be something else.
If after the meeting the OP says nothing, then signs would point to his daughter being a trouble maker.

 

[Phoenix86]

That said I understand your underlying point, which is that the school has to take the complaint seriously. That is a different point than what I am trying to argue, which is that the school should not (and probably does not) have a legal obligation to protect kids from this type of question.

I'd go a step further and say by making this an issue they are not protecting the OP's kid's rights.

"let's not talk about that here", from the teacher, suppresses the kid's rights. Teachers and school officials can't say this shit. That's a parental decision, in general.

 

[Newell Steamer]

my daughter was asking innocently (she is in church school as well) and wasn't trying to harass.

I think this is it.

Also, please don't apologize to the parents. There is clearly no harassment. No one was physically hurt. There was no usage of foul language or bullying.

Stay calm during whatever talks are going on - $10 says the parents that did complain are just looking to cause trouble.

Greet them with ease and calmness. And let the hysterics come from them.

Again - there wasn't anything that could be warranted as harassment. You'll be fine, as long as you don't let them rile you up to make you look like a spitting mad religious zealot.