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So Lets Talk About the next Woke College to Fall.... Syracuse

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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,989
8,354
126
Young activism is natural, how the administrators handle it (or join it to be politically correct) is where the rubber meets the road.
A lot of it seems justified. For example, if a college professor, for example, makes a completely unsupported statement that women are genetically inferior, and thus less intelligent, etc, and he has women students in his classes, then a full audit of his students' performance is warranted. And if it is determined that, all else being equal, he regularly grades his female students lower than his male students, then corrective action by the administration is absolutely justifiable. As would be almost any speech by the affected students and their sympathizers/supporters.
And please note, such action in that example would not be an attempt to silence that professor's speech, it is the consequences of his speech. He won't have broken any law, and he won't face any criminal punishments. It's not even "political correctness." He would simply face the consequences for refusing to do his job.
I would of the same opinion BTW if the gender roles in the above example were reversed.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,298
4,198
146
Uhhhhh so how exactly is this different than Evergreen? Did you watch the videos? You acknowledge the demands are stupid (as were the Evergreen ones), so how is this any different?

And requesting a fact check on your last sentence - because it hasn't happened. There were some obscene racist graffiti... There were ABSOLUTELY NO DOCUMENTED
1. Threats of violence
2. White supremacists
3. No one even proven at fault here - could very well have been a hoax which has happened NUMEROUS times on campus. Poop swastika ring a bell broceritops?
Racist graffiti has an implied threat of violence and supremacy, there's no 'documentation' required.

And really? We're now blaming the victims (essentially) by stating that it was a 'hoax'? Guess what, if someone's 'hoaxing' racism, they're racists.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,226
1,240
136
Uhhhhh so how exactly is this different than Evergreen? Did you watch the videos? You acknowledge the demands are stupid (as were the Evergreen ones), so how is this any different?

And requesting a fact check on your last sentence - because it hasn't happened. There were some obscene racist graffiti... There were ABSOLUTELY NO DOCUMENTED
1. Threats of violence
2. White supremacists
3. No one even proven at fault here - could very well have been a hoax which has happened NUMEROUS times on campus. Poop swastika ring a bell broceritops?
I'm just taking the word of your video. It is what claims there were over a dozen racist incidences in a two week timespan, including racial slurs against African American and Asian students, swastikas, and a white supremacist manifesto sent to student cell phones. Did you see the interview with the Mexican Jewish faculty member that was told to get in the oven where she belongs? You seem to be claiming everything in the video you posted is incorrect, which is rather odd.

The difference between this and Evergreen is that in the case of evergreen they were opposing a faculty member being opposed to forced marginalization of groups. In the case of Evergreen, total anarchy broke loose, with faculty and administration supporting it. I think you need to watch your own video a few more times because it really appears you didn't comprehend its content.
 

zzyzxroad

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2017
3,128
2,122
136
Uhhhhh so how exactly is this different than Evergreen? Did you watch the videos? You acknowledge the demands are stupid (as were the Evergreen ones), so how is this any different?

And requesting a fact check on your last sentence - because it hasn't happened. There were some obscene racist graffiti... There were ABSOLUTELY NO DOCUMENTED
1. Threats of violence
2. White supremacists
3. No one even proven at fault here - could very well have been a hoax which has happened NUMEROUS times on campus. Poop swastika ring a bell broceritops?
I appreciate you passion on the subject. How far are you from Syracuse? Perhaps you can head there and help talk some sense into these misguided yutes.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,635
1,874
126
Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

Criticizing speech you find dumb or offensive is in keeping with the highest traditions of free speech.
Which is why I am criticizing his criticism of posters criticizing the students, which will probably result in you’re criticizing me and a few snarky comments from the peanut gallery.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,989
8,354
126
Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

Criticizing speech you find dumb or offensive is in keeping with the highest traditions of free speech.
As you often point out, many of the posters here aren't acting in good faith. Which is how they're able to argue that speech they disagree with, or that disagrees with them, must be a fascist conspiracy to silence their free speech. And even go one step further by construing any questioning of their 'logic' as an 'attack.'
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,989
8,354
126
Which is why I am criticizing his criticism of posters criticizing the students, which will probably result in you’re criticizing me and a few snarky comments from the peanut gallery.
Once again, what was the rationale for calling them "junior fascists that want control over what can be said" except to get them to stop speaking? Have they done anything else besides speak? What have these college kids actually done to exert control over your speech?

I will continue to wait for Greeman's and your answers to these questions.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
34,852
4,799
126
You're off in two different directions here. First off, the story isn't about what states do, it's about college kids, lets stay on track. If you want to discuss states rights lets do that in a different thread.
So you want this thread to be a safe space from talk about states' rights?
 

zzyzxroad

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2017
3,128
2,122
136
"Shut the fuck up. Go to class - or be expelled" doesn't sound like a slogan of a college I want to attend.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that trump University slogan? Well I think it started with pay up but close enough.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,351
20,039
136
Guys, OP is mad about what legitimate smart people are doing again. He created a thread to try and prove how much smarter he is than actual smart people. It's the same thing, every time, haha.

Have a :beercheers:, OP.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,635
1,874
126
Once again, what was the rationale for calling them "junior fascists that want control over what can be said" except to get them to stop speaking? Have they done anything else besides speak? What have these college kids actually done to exert control over your speech?

I will continue to wait for Greeman's and your answers to these questions.
The rationale and intent is to question the demands that go beyond addressing the racist graffiti incident and start to infringe on things like curriculum. It’s the typical safe space manifesto approach that, if implemented, would create more, not less, segregation.

Don’t like the misuse of the term “fascism”? You can thank the people who have been throwing around the term arbitrarily since W was in office.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,989
8,354
126
The rationale and intent is to question the demands that go beyond addressing the racist graffiti incident and start to infringe on things like curriculum. It’s the typical safe space manifesto approach that, if implemented, would create more, not less, segregation.

Don’t like the misuse of the term “fascism”? You can thank the people who have been throwing around the term arbitrarily since W was in office.
Yawn
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
16,666
4,512
136
The rationale and intent is to question the demands that go beyond addressing the racist graffiti incident and start to infringe on things like curriculum. It’s the typical safe space manifesto approach that, if implemented, would create more, not less, segregation.

Don’t like the misuse of the term “fascism”? You can thank the people who have been throwing around the term arbitrarily since W was in office.
Back to the libruls made me do it.
 

jmagg

Golden Member
Nov 21, 2001
1,724
207
106
A lot of it seems justified. For example, if a college professor, for example, makes a completely unsupported statement that women are genetically inferior, and thus less intelligent, etc, and he has women students in his classes, then a full audit of his students' performance is warranted. And if it is determined that, all else being equal, he regularly grades his female students lower than his male students, then corrective action by the administration is absolutely justifiable. As would be almost any speech by the affected students and their sympathizers/supporters.
And please note, such action in that example would not be an attempt to silence that professor's speech, it is the consequences of his speech. He won't have broken any law, and he won't face any criminal punishments. It's not even "political correctness." He would simply face the consequences for refusing to do his job.
I would of the same opinion BTW if the gender roles in the above example were reversed.
I do agree that a professor should be able, and need to quantify their words regarding anything but their opinions. A new building and a panel of scholars is not needed to accomplish this and should be addressed so. /etc
Teach your children well comes to mind and this includes college admin. imo
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,989
8,354
126
Here's an interesting article by the President of Wesleyan University explaining how the outrage over 'woke' college culture is really an effort to suppress student speech through stereotype and scapegoat, and to force a certain political correctness under the guise of being anti-PC.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/23/opinions/woke-college-student-scapegoat-like-welfare-queen-roth/index.html

What the 'woke student' and the 'welfare queen' have in common

Opinion by Michael S. Roth
Updated 9:59 AM ET, Sat November 23, 2019

Michael S. Roth is the president of Wesleyan University. A historian, he was formerly the president of the California College of the Arts. His most recent books are "Safe Enough Spaces: A Pragmatist's Approach to Inclusion, Free Speech and Political Correctness on College Campuses" and "Beyond the University: Why Liberal Education Matters." The views expressed here are his. Read more opinion on CNN.

(CNN)Every age seems to need a bogeyman, some negative image against which good people measure themselves. When I entered college in the mid-1970s, the term "welfare queen" was being popularized by Ronald Reagan as he campaigned for president and was starting to be taken up by the mass media. It would soon go on to upstage the outworn "commie" and well-worn "dirty hippie" as objects of vitriol in the American political imagination. Self-described regular, decent Americans had in "welfare queen" a new image against which to define themselves.

There had long been accounts of people scamming the government in one way or another -- contractors overcharging, politicians on the take, crooked cops. But the trope of the "welfare queen" was nicely constructed to seep into a white American psyche already anxious in the 1970s and 1980s about race, single mothers and an urban culture that challenged more than a few mainstream myths.

Today I am a college president and a teacher at a school known for student activism, and I've noticed a new trope on the scene with rising potential as a national scapegoat. It's the politically correct, "woke," college student. If the sins of the welfare queen were crafty laziness and promiscuity, the sins of the woke so-called social justice warrior are elitist condescension and a failure to connect with the needs of real people.

Like the welfare queen, the woke student activist is a convenient type -- one who unites others in opposition to what they imagine is wrong with this country. And just as welfare cheats attracted criticism from Republicans and Democrats alike from the Reagan years through the Clinton administration's welfare reform plans in the 1990s, so woke young people have aroused the choreographed indignation of leaders as different as Presidents Donald Trump and Barack Obama.

Trump realized the power of being anti-PC somewhere between his guest appearances on the Howard Stern radio show and his run for the presidency: no matter what he said or did, he could take the high ground, or at least earn credit, for not being politically correct.

In one of the early debates in the 2016 election, Megyn Kelly questioned the candidate about his demeaning comments about women over the years. "I think the big problem this country has is being politically correct," he replied (to applause from the audience). Throughout the election, he turned what might have been judged as moral lapses into heroic refusals to conform to politically correct moral criteria. And he's doubled down on this move repeatedly since taking the oath of office.

Every president since the first George Bush has earned points by attacking political correctness and last month Obama joined in, receiving kudos for admonishing young people to stop trying to be holier than thou in their political righteousness. During an interview at the recent Obama Foundation summit, Obama said, "I do get a sense sometimes now among certain young people, and this is accelerated by social media, there is this sense sometimes of: 'The way of me making change is to be as judgmental as possible about other people,' and that's enough."

He drew praise from across the political spectrum in concluding: "That's not activism. That's not bringing about change...If all you're doing is casting stones, you're probably not going to get that far. That's easy to do."

Yes, that is easy to do. Denouncing college students -- be they the long-haired protestors of the 1960s, the environmentalist "tree huggers" of the 1990s or the "pronoun policers" today -- is bound to please in a number of circles. Like the welfare queens of yore, the stereotype of the woke social justice warrior, only concerned with canceling other people, is a politically useful (if wildly misleading) figure. Nobody wants to fit this description, and in my experience, very few actually do.

Sure, there are cases of student protestors who angrily denounce practices that previous generations thought were emblematic of fairness or free expression. Student newspapers at Northwestern and Harvard were criticized within the last month--for soliciting a statement from ICE, in the case of the Harvard Crimson, and for tracking down student activists for their statement on a disruptive protest, in the case of the Daily Northwestern.

In both cases, some of the young journalists were taken off guard and wanted to apologize to their fellow students on the left. They were quickly pounced upon by pundits, while less attention was paid to those other students at the newspapers who defended the young journalists' reporting practices and their editorial autonomy. It turns out there was a healthy debate in newsrooms after all.

Conversations about race, the economy, bias, sexual assault, climate change or the winner-take-all economy all tend to involve strong emotions and challenging complexity. Sometimes, people complain that they don't want to speak up because they fear being criticized or stigmatized. But they should recognize that their fear isn't somebody else's fault -- isn't a sign of their environment's political correctness or hostility toward free expression. Their fear of speaking out is just a sign that they need more courage — for it requires courage to stay engaged with difference.

The images of the welfare queen and of the woke student are convenient because they provide excuses to not engage with difference, placing certain types of people beyond the pale. These scapegoats are meant to inspire solidarity in a group by providing an object for its hostility (or derision), and educators and civic leaders should not play along. Instead of arousing easy antipathy, they should strive to cultivate the robust exchange of ideas across differences. In the year leading up to the next national elections, these exchanges are more important than ever.

We desperately need young people to assume their civic responsibilities, and universities have a responsibility to help them to do so. Over the next 12 months, I am optimistic that we will see the activism of college students refute the charge that their politically correct generation just cancels others, or that it is self-satisfied in its condescending "wokeness." That charge serves only the status quo, and the continuation of the status quo today would mean a very bleak tomorrow.

Educators and pundits should stop whining that young people aren't what they used to be and start cultivating civic preparedness. Students can reject the tired tropes of the past and embrace what many in the older generations have forgotten: how to build effective coalitions with people who have a variety of points of view, and who imagine the future with a mix of hopes sometimes very different from their own. No bogeymen required.
 
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UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
22,837
5,219
136
College students demanding segregation is an interesting step to take, especially when it is done outside the Republican party and is a movement among minorities themselves.
Happens all the time. Just heard on the radio the other day that trans activists want to separate from the broader LGBTQ movement because “too much” of the progress and economic growth from the movement has been concentrated to white, cisgender males vs. trans/people of color. Not sure how that’ll work out for them.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,989
8,354
126
I answered your question. Sorry it wasn’t what you wanted to hear.
You did not even attempt to answer my question, you merely deflected by acknowledging that the word fascism is frequently misused and then blamed liberals for that.

Meanwhile, I lost track of how many you answered with "Yawn" in the It's all Hunter Biden's fault that Trump grabs em by the pussy thread.

Because the 2 realities here are that no college student is going to take away your free speech, and you have no real interest in reducing the divisions and separations between us. Because if you did have such an interest, then you wouldn't always be blaming "the other side" for your own bad actions.
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,989
8,354
126
Happens all the time. Just heard on the radio the other day that trans activists want to separate from the broader LGBTQ movement because “too much” of the progress and economic growth from the movement has been concentrated to white, cisgender males vs. trans/people of color. Not sure how that’ll work out for them.
Stupid people say stupid things.
 
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Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,635
1,874
126
You did not even attempt to answer my question, you merely deflected with bullshit.

Meanwhile, I lost track of how many you answered with "Yawn" in the It's all Hunter Biden's fault that Trump grabs em by the pussy thread.

Because the 2 realities here are that no college student is going to take away your free speech, and you have no real interest in reducing the divisions and separations between us. Because if you did have such an interest, then you wouldn't always be blaming "the other side" for your own bad actions.
I expect everything you disagree with is bullshit, hence you’re typically emotional responses.

Do you have anymore disingenuous questions to ask, or are we done.
 

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