So I went and shot guns for the first time today...

[DaTT]

Here is what I shot...

"The Judge" .410

Glock-17 9mm

Glock-17 with RONI kit 9mm

S&W .357

Imperial Defence-CQB .223 (or similar)

Remington 870 12ga

 

[IronWing]

Did you hit any of them?

 

[FoBoT]

i hope you didn't waste any, use the whole kill and all that

 

[DaTT]

Did you hit any of them?

Ha ha ha

 

[JEDI]

wtf does the Roni kit do?

and how's the judge? is it more gimmick than anything else?
(.410 from a handgun)

 

[DaTT]

wtf does the Roni kit do?

and how's the judge? is it more gimmick than anything else?
(.410 from a handgun)

The RONI kit turn your Glock handgun into a rifle I guess. Just slap the kit around your pistol and BOOM, a rifle that can accept attachments and stuff.

As far as the Judge goes, it had kick. That's as far as I can elaborate on the subject as I know very little about guns.

 

[draknon]

That's quite a nice spread for a first timer to shoot.

 

[IcePickFreak]

and how's the judge? is it more gimmick than anything else?
(.410 from a handgun)

My old man has a Judge with the a 2-1/2" barrel. I thought the trigger action was pretty smooth for a double action. Does have a pretty solid kick obviously. The .410 shells we shot had 3 discs stacked at the front, and then some bird shot behind those. At about 20 feet, the effect looked pretty deadly on a silhouette target. I believe you can shoot .45 long colts in em too.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

and how's the judge? is it more gimmick than anything else?
(.410 from a handgun)

Not a gimmick, a little hard to shoot but makes a very powerful defense weapon when loaded with a 45 long colt cartridge or .410 slug or a great snake charmer when loaded with .410 bird shot. The 45LC/.410 chambering in a handgun is nothing new and has been around for over 100 years. The 45LC cartridge was introduced in 1876 and the .410 shotgun shell came along around 1900 and was designed specifically to work in guns bored for 45's. I inherited a german made single shot break over pistol chambered in 45LC/.410 that was made in the late 1800's. I carried it in the boat with me while bass fishing and have blasted many cotton mouth water moccasins with it.

Another interesting tidbit about handguns in this caliber is that they get around laws regarding minimum length for shotguns because the barrels are rifled for the 45cal they are technically designated as rifles thus not subject to the laws regarding shotguns.

 

[yllus]

Whew! I see you're in the GTA - whereabouts could I go to take part in such festivities?

 

[BladeVenom]

The RONI kit turn your Glock handgun into a rifle I guess. Just slap the kit around your pistol and BOOM, a rifle that can accept attachments and stuff.

Just don't forget to get the proper license from the ATF for a short barreled rifle.

 

[mizzou]

The RONI kit turn your Glock handgun into a rifle I guess. Just slap the kit around your pistol and BOOM, a rifle that can accept attachments and stuff.

As far as the Judge goes, it had kick. That's as far as I can elaborate on the subject as I know very little about guns.

NOT a rifle, but a "carbine" 😉

 

[mizzou]

Just don't forget to get the proper license from the ATF for a short barreled rifle.

i think it's still technically a pistol. Sort of like the .45 long colt pistol grip/rifle stock attachment that has been around for ages. Theoretically its still a pistol. I think?

Just some words I got from a friend of mine when we went and shot one at a state operated range, they let us shoot from the pistol range because it was more or less a handgun

 

[BladeVenom]

I believe if you put a shoulder stock on a pistol it's a Short Barreled Rifle. If you just put a front grip on a pistol it falls into the Any Other Weapon category. Both need licensed.

You certainly want to check before you do either.

 

[LTC8K6]

The judge is pretty much a gimmick.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot53.htm

 

[DaTT]

Whew! I see you're in the GTA - whereabouts could I go to take part in such festivities?

Target Sports Canada

Get there early and go on a weekday as they get tons of walk-ons.

It's up in Gormley, off the 404 just North of Major Mac

 

[GuitarDaddy]

The judge is pretty much a gimmick.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot53.htm

Gee, very conclusive 😕

two reviews by the same guy that has an unnatural hatred of the .410 round and goes way out of his way to discredit the penetration potential of the .410 ammo and pretty much fails IMHO.

1. He doesn't compare his tests to any other hand gun calibers
2. He claims a ridiculous 12-15in. penetration after passing through 4 layers of denim is necessary to be a effective defense round, which would disqualify all but the most powerful handgun cartridges.
3. He admits that the 45LC cartridge exceeds his penetration requirements and meets his standard for a defense round.


It's quite obvious to anyone that birdshot in any guage makes a poor defense round, but IMO his tests with the buck shot, slugs and modern combo defense rounds showed that in all but the most extreme cases they would make a fine defensive weapon. For the most part they would penetrate 6-10in. in geletan/flesh after going through 4 layers of denim (to simulate thick clothing) which I think is ridiculous, nobody wears the equivalent of 4 layers of denim. I,m guessing if you reduced that to a more logical single layer of denim he might have reached his required 12in. penetration.

This guy is an idiot with a grudge. The .410 defense loads may not stack up to a 44mag but I sure wouldn't want to stand in front of something that will send 3/4 ounce of lead through 4 layers of denim and 3-4 1gal water jugs.

 

[BladeVenom]

3. The longer barrel of the 28 inch shotgun made quite a difference in penetration.

Wow! A full length shotgun offers more firepower than a three inch revolver. Who would have thought. [/sarcasm]

 

[schneiderguy]

Gee, very conclusive 😕

two reviews by the same guy that has an unnatural hatred of the .410 round and goes way out of his way to discredit the penetration potential of the .410 ammo and pretty much fails IMHO.

1. He doesn't compare his tests to any other hand gun calibers
2. He claims a ridiculous 12-15in. penetration after passing through 4 layers of denim is necessary to be a effective defense round, which would disqualify all but the most powerful handgun cartridges.
3. He admits that the 45LC cartridge exceeds his penetration requirements and meets his standard for a defense round.


It's quite obvious to anyone that birdshot in any guage makes a poor defense round, but IMO his tests with the buck shot, slugs and modern combo defense rounds showed that in all but the most extreme cases they would make a fine defensive weapon. For the most part they would penetrate 6-10in. in geletan/flesh after going through 4 layers of denim (to simulate thick clothing) which I think is ridiculous, nobody wears the equivalent of 4 layers of denim. I,m guessing if you reduced that to a more logical single layer of denim he might have reached his required 12in. penetration.

This guy is an idiot with a grudge. The .410 defense loads may not stack up to a 44mag but I sure wouldn't want to stand in front of something that will send 3/4 ounce of lead through 4 layers of denim and 3-4 1gal water jugs.

.410 is a terrible for self defense out of a handgun. 12" is the MINIMUM penetration required by the FBI for being adequate for defense. 6-10 inches may not reach the vital organs you need to hit to disable an attacker. 9mm/.38special will easily penetrate 12" through 4 layers of denim and those aren't even close to the "most powerful" handgun rounds.

 

[TakeNoPrisoners]

The Judge is really good if you want to load it with .45 LC for self defense but also need something to take care of vermin. .410 shotshells should work just fine for little birds.

 

[jlee]

Gee, very conclusive 😕

two reviews by the same guy that has an unnatural hatred of the .410 round and goes way out of his way to discredit the penetration potential of the .410 ammo and pretty much fails IMHO.

1. He doesn't compare his tests to any other hand gun calibers

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

2. He claims a ridiculous 12-15in. penetration after passing through 4 layers of denim is necessary to be a effective defense round, which would disqualify all but the most powerful handgun cartridges.

His answer is more articulate than mine, so I shall simply quote what you apparently missed:

The answer is that the FBI did a study of what was needed for ammunition to be effective, based upon the ammunition failure in the famous Miami Shootout, to reach the vital organs of the bad guy and Stop him from doing what he was doing. They determined that to be sure to reach the vital organs or central nervous system, a round should penetrate from 12 to 15 inches into ballistics gelatin. This included penetration through 4 layers of denim material to account for thick clothing, and also to account for the possibility of the round needing to penetrate through arms or limbs before hitting the torso.

If you think about it, if a bad guy is pointing a gun at you, your round might need to fully penetrate his hands or arms before even starting to penetrate his torso. The 12 inch minimum standard allows for effectiveness from any angle and through any extremities. Therefore, we require any self-defense round to meet or exceed the FBI 12 inch minimum penetration standard. And since water works at a 2 to 1 ratio to ballistic gelatin, a round must penetrate 24 inches of water (4 jugs) to meet the standard of 12 inches of BG.

3. He admits that the 45LC cartridge exceeds his penetration requirements and meets his standard for a defense round.

Exact wording:

5. The .45 Long Colt loads had plenty of penetration and would be the preferred defense load for this pistol.

Why are you implying that he was reluctant to "admit" this? He plainly says that the .45 Long Colt was quite sufficient.

It's quite obvious to anyone that birdshot in any guage makes a poor defense round, but IMO his tests with the buck shot, slugs and modern combo defense rounds showed that in all but the most extreme cases they would make a fine defensive weapon. For the most part they would penetrate 6-10in. in geletan/flesh after going through 4 layers of denim (to simulate thick clothing) which I think is ridiculous, nobody wears the equivalent of 4 layers of denim.

Refer to the aforementioned FBI reference.

I,m guessing if you reduced that to a more logical single layer of denim he might have reached his required 12in. penetration.

By "his" you mean "FBI standard," right?

This guy is an idiot with a grudge. The .410 defense loads may not stack up to a 44mag but I sure wouldn't want to stand in front of something that will send 3/4 ounce of lead through 4 layers of denim and 3-4 1gal water jugs.

He's not the one who sounds like an idiot.

He's not putting the gun down at all. The only comments I noticed that could possibly be construed as such are below:

3. The longer barrel of the 28 inch shotgun made quite a difference in penetration. It seems that the short 3 inch barrel of the Judge is its main limitation.

4. Even at 7 yards, the pattern of the Judge is too wide, and will cause some of the load to miss a bad guy. Not only are you responsible for every pellet you send down range, but if they miss him, they do not Stop him.

First point? True. Anyone familiar with firearms shouldn't be surprised.

Second point? Also true. If you shoot at someone from 20 feet away and send pellets into three innocent bystanders, you own it.

 

[Veliko]

I shot a real gun for the first time a few years ago when I was in Mississipi. It was great fun - used a really small gun and a shotgun to blow a large, plastic bucket to smithereens.

Couldn't believe how loud it all was.

 

[DaTT]

I had great fun and am probably going to get my Firearms licence.

When I shot the civilian version of the AR-15, at 25 yds, I emptied the magazine in a nice small grouping in the targets head. I will put pics of my targets up later

 

[Thebobo]

.410 shotshells should work just fine for little birds.

lol

 

[Vic Vega]

The Judge seems like a quality firearm but I simply don't have a use for it. The performance of the .410 out of a shotgun has been hotly debated for years so it's no surprise an equal amount of controversy surrounds the Judge. Personally, I have seen many deer taken with .410 slugs using 3" shells.

I have a .410 shotgun myself and if push comes to shove, it would stop a man. You put three, 3" 00 Buck shells into said bad guy's chest and he isn't getting up. I'm sure similar results would be attainable from a pistol under the right circumstances with the .410 but only with 00 buck. I would never try and defend myself with bird shot or a slug from the Judge. There isn't enough barrel to get that slug up to speed. Even with the 00 Buck I have my reservations.

For me, it's not that the Judge wouldn't work, it's that there are far better, lighter and proven options for the role of personal defense against two-legged adversaries, especially for concealed carry.

Again, it seems like a quality piece, it just isn't for me.