So I have before me the implementation of the repeal of DADT

[Elfear]

How can you not give soldiers alternate living arrangements? How does that make sense? What if we suddenly started forcing women to bunk with men?

I agree with this. To me it's like telling all the female soldiers that a bunch of really ugly male soldiers are now going to be bunking and showering with them. None of them are themselves attracted to the guys but their privacy is invaded and it would make the situation very uncomfortable.

I'm having a hard time imagining how it wouldn't be very uncomfortable for the gay soldiers too. I mean, how hard would it be to shower and bunk with people you were attracted to for years and not have it become an issue. Much like a regular heterosexual hormone-filled guy showering and bunking with women for years.

 

[Nebor]

LMAO!

Glad to hear it went well for you. I expect those with problems will be disproportionally in the combat MOS's and disproportionally in senior NCO positions, surprised to hear it expressed by a captain. Gay really isn't an issue with most of the younger generation, so younger soldiers will probably not be affected. And LOL at his kids "not being exposed to that sort of thing". I applaud him for wanting to protect his kids, but openly gay people are everywhere; children protected to the point that they have not encountered gay couples will be dysfunctional adults. Hopefully he'll encounter respected soldier who are now openly gay and realize they probably won't eat his brain or rape his children.

This is a 22-year + Time in service captain. He used to be an NCO. He still has NCO brain most of the time. When he first got to the unit, he started ranting about the "homosexual agenda" being pushed in schools and government organizations across the country at lunch one day. That's when he stopped getting invited to the officer lunches.

 

[werepossum]

I agree with this. To me it's like telling all the female soldiers that a bunch of really ugly male soldiers are now going to be bunking and showering with them. None of them are themselves attracted to the guys but their privacy is invaded and it would make the situation very uncomfortable.

I'm having a hard time imagining how it wouldn't be very uncomfortable for the gay soldiers too. I mean, how hard would it be to shower and bunk with people you were attracted to for years and not have it become an issue. Much like a regular heterosexual hormone-filled guy showering and bunking with women for years.

Agreed, but in military situations many billets cannot be broken out simply because someone makes you uncomfortable. Hopefully they will try to accommodate those who have problems when it's practical, but it cannot be a right. My guess though is that it will be treated like racial integration. Got a problem with your black room mate? Tough shit! Arguably that's better in the long run, as it forces integration and normalization, and weeds out those who truly cannot accept gays before they get into situations where they cannot be accommodated.

Two other things come to mind. First, most all of the younger members (no pun intended) would be all right (if not downright enthusiastic) with female room mates. Hard to argue that bunking with females is okay but bunking with queer males is not. Second, most of the gay service members are probably already there. Again, it's going to be hard to argue that you suddenly can't bunk with the guy you've bunked with for months or even years.

 

[werepossum]

This is a 22-year + Time in service captain. He used to be an NCO. He still has NCO brain most of the time. When he first got to the unit, he started ranting about the "homosexual agenda" being pushed in schools and government organizations across the country at lunch one day. That's when he stopped getting invited to the officer lunches.

Assuming he doesn't win the medal, his career is over. Today's army is all about tolerance and diversity.

Hey, I'm sure we lost some fine soldiers when we racially integrated too. It's not all about soldiering skills, you also have to fit in.

 

[Nebor]

Assuming he doesn't win the medal, his career is over. Today's army is all about tolerance and diversity.

Hey, I'm sure we lost some fine soldiers when we racially integrated too. It's not all about soldiering skills, you also have to fit in.

Promotion rate to MAJ is 99%.

 

[Zebo]

I recognize this, but like I said, I couldn't vote for someone who will put more money in my pocket if I knew they thought I was subhuman, or worse, pandered to those who thought that.

All pols think you are little people, reality is most people just vote their pocket book. A lot of rich gays out there who want neoliberal economics. Only gay i know is repubican. Who cares if politicians they vote for have to get the bible thumpers on board to put more money in their pocket?

With only a two party system you have to make compromises here and there as none will represent you 100%.

 

[werepossum]

Promotion rate to MAJ is 99%.

Holy crap, when did that happen? Last I knew, promotion to major was about 25%.

What do you DO with all those majors?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

ROFL! These 'brave' soldiers are willing to get into a firefight in cqc, engage an unknown enemy on any country in the earth in any environment, yet bunking next to a fellow serviceman (or woman) who is gay scares them. Teh gayz is teh plague...
WTF...

 

[Nebor]

Holy crap, when did that happen? Last I knew, promotion to major was about 25%.

What do you DO with all those majors?

They changed it to an electronic board last year. There aren't all those majors because not many people stay that long. Those of that are smart enough to realize how poorly SOME of the high level leadership are running things are also bright enough and well sought after enough that the civilian opportunities for us are causing 70%+ of CPTs to REFRAD as soon as they're able. The Army is actually critical on Field Grade officers across almost every branch and functional area.

Just to give you an idea, out of the 7 company grade officers in my battalion, 4 ETSed in the last year and 1 will be ETSing this summer. The only ones that stay are the rocks that aren't smart or ambitious enough to do anything but follow doctrine and get their hair cut regularly.

 

[lupi]

Do they include something like a jockstrap that you wear backwards for the barrack showers now?

 

[werepossum]

They changed it to an electronic board last year. There aren't all those majors because not many people stay that long. Those of that are smart enough to realize how poorly SOME of the high level leadership are running things are also bright enough and well sought after enough that the civilian opportunities for us are causing 70%+ of CPTs to REFRAD as soon as they're able. The Army is actually critical on Field Grade officers across almost every branch and functional area.

Just to give you an idea, out of the 7 company grade officers in my battalion, 4 ETSed in the last year and 1 will be ETSing this summer. The only ones that stay are the rocks that aren't smart or ambitious enough to do anything but follow doctrine and get their hair cut regularly.

Did not know that. (Not that there's any reason I would.) I'm ambivalent - I mean, obviously it sucks for the armed forces, but it's great for those of you tired of military bullshit. Hopefully this will lead to much better pay and conditions, to allow a return to tough criteria and grading. Combat is the worst possible place for the Peter Principle.

EDIT: This does firmly establish though that we are systematically breaking our military. We have far too few service members for the level of our deployment, which in a volunteer, 40+% married military leads inevitably to high ETS rates and thus low advancement standards. I don't see any way to afford increasing the size of the military, so we MUST decrease our commitments.

 

[zsdersw]

Do they include something like a jockstrap that you wear backwards for the barrack showers now?

That won't stop anything from happening.

 

[Nebor]

Did not know that. (Not that there's any reason I would.) I'm ambivalent - I mean, obviously it sucks for the armed forces, but it's great for those of you tired of military bullshit. Hopefully this will lead to much better pay and conditions, to allow a return to tough criteria and grading. Combat is the worst possible place for the Peter Principle.

EDIT: This does firmly establish though that we are systematically breaking our military. We have far too few service members for the level of our deployment, which in a volunteer, 40+% married military leads inevitably to high ETS rates and thus low advancement standards. I don't see any way to afford increasing the size of the military, so we MUST decrease our commitments.

I don't really think pay is a problem (at least on the officer side.) Not to say that increased pay incentives wouldn't have a positive impact on retention, but most people leave because a) they don't like the culture of stupidity reigning or b) they don't want to spend half their lives away from their family.

Just as an example, I recently went to Afghanistan with ~40 other senior NCOs and officers to aid in the Afghan security forces training establishment and headquarters, then returned to the United States to train other US service members that will be deploying to Iraq and Afghanistan to aid those host nation security forces. We literally were never debriefed. No lessons learned or gathered. We had virtually no contact with command while we were gone. I'm not saying that we didn't do any good, because we did good in Afghanistan, but our ability to relay that knowledge to others has been crippled by higher command. Instead, we're now told to ramp up training in the area of hand grenades and chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear training. Because all I did in Afghanistan was get gassed and throw hand grenades. :\

Anyway, I'm ranting. The repeal of DADT is a step in the right direction, and it's going very smoothly so far. It's fairly disappointing that no benefits are offered to those in gay marriages, but that's due to the Defense of Marriage Act, so there's nothing the military can do about it.

 

[werepossum]

I don't really think pay is a problem (at least on the officer side.) Not to say that increased pay incentives wouldn't have a positive impact on retention, but most people leave because a) they don't like the culture of stupidity reigning or b) they don't want to spend half their lives away from their family.

Just as an example, I recently went to Afghanistan with ~40 other senior NCOs and officers to aid in the Afghan security forces training establishment and headquarters, then returned to the United States to train other US service members that will be deploying to Iraq and Afghanistan to aid those host nation security forces. We literally were never debriefed. No lessons learned or gathered. We had virtually no contact with command while we were gone. I'm not saying that we didn't do any good, because we did good in Afghanistan, but our ability to relay that knowledge to others has been crippled by higher command. Instead, we're now told to ramp up training in the area of hand grenades and chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear training. Because all I did in Afghanistan was get gassed and throw hand grenades. :\

Anyway, I'm ranting. The repeal of DADT is a step in the right direction, and it's going very smoothly so far. It's fairly disappointing that no benefits are offered to those in gay marriages, but that's due to the Defense of Marriage Act, so there's nothing the military can do about it.

Why debrief the soldiers when the stateside leadership already knows everything there is to know? LOL

One enduring fault of the US military is a willful lack of an institutional memory. There is absolutely no excuse for losing people as they relearn in-country the lessons the relieved unit took home with them. I would write it off to over-deployment and the pressure to get soldiers back with their families, except that it's the same in every conflict we enter, and the exceptions are just that - exceptions, people who bucked the system to pass on or learn in training how to fight that particular fight rather than the last one.

We desperately need our four divisions back, preferably of infantry or light infantry, and our existing brigades and separate brigades/regiments brought up to full strength on the old (circa 80s) TOE. That would cut deployments back to 1 in 3, which would allow more time with the family and more and better training. We really don't have the money, but I'd like to see another 120,000 troops added to the Army until we can cut our deployments. Although realistically, we'll hopefully be out of Iraq and Afghanistan by the time we had the new troops up to speed. I guess it wouldn't make much sense to spend all the money and training and equipment just for another flurry of RIFs.

Stupid Peace Dividend.

 

[classy]

Stereotypes are fun, but you look stupid when you rely on them.

Here's a clue for you: most gay men aren't "flaming", and those that are "flaming" are very unlikely to seek military service in the first place.

First of all I served in the military, just the reserves though, but I think I can speak from first hand experience. By flaming, I don't mean running around in dresses like some fairy. I mean the men will still be required at all times to behave just like men. Their private time will still be theirs, but there won't be a situation where their posture or their speech will resemble anything but that of a male.

Women are a little different, because there has always been some type of tom-boyish demeaner in many military women. So I doubt much will change on that front. Every person, of every people group endures some type of critism and it shouldn't be any different for you or any other homosexual. The way you live ain't without faults like anyone else.

 

[zsdersw]

First of all I served in the military, just the reserves though, but I think I can speak from first hand experience. By flaming, I don't mean running around in dresses like some fairy. I mean the men will still be required at all times to behave just like men. Their private time will still be theirs, but there won't be a situation where their posture or their speech will resemble anything but that of a male.

That's not what I meant by "flaming", either. Flaming, as I meant it, (and as how most of the gay men I know mean it) is any obviously homosexual habits or personality/mannerism traits. That doesn't mean they "run around in dresses", as you naively put it. Flamers, far more often than not, aren't seriously interested in military service.. and if they talk about joining the military it is likely only because of some military/uniform fetish.

Every person, of every people group endures some type of critism and it shouldn't be any different for you or any other homosexual. The way you live ain't without faults like anyone else.

And the way you stereotypically characterize and pigeon-hole groups of people with which you're not very familiar is not without fault, as well.