So how many Android tablet flops and disasters will it take?

[Arp_]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. You can use a separate app to write formulas and draw graphs, do a screen capture, then re-insert them into your notes. It's cleaner and more professional that way than scribbling gibberish.

That's what I do in my classes, because I am a perfectionist freak. But also because the graphs drawn using a dedicated app are always more accurate than those drawn using my own hands.

Alternatively, use Wolfram Alfa to get results from otherwise complex formulas.

This would be unnecessarily complex workflow for me, and it would probably need more attention than lecture itself 🙂 I want to just make some notes so that I remember stuff easier later, last thing I worry about is the accuracy of typesetting or stuff like that.

 

[runawayprisoner]

I am sure a professor is going to pause the lecture while you do all that.

In which case, switch to pen and paper.

This would be unnecessarily complex workflow for me, and it would probably need more attention than lecture itself 🙂 I want to just make some notes so that I remember stuff easier later, last thing I worry about is the accuracy of typesetting or stuff like that.

In which case, just like above, switch to pen and paper. When you are done with your class, take photos of your notes and then upload them to your tablet. It's not an overly complex workflow as when you are frustrating yourself with stylus and touchscreen. Opening multiple apps might be too complex, but I don't think taking notes with paper then reupload them is that complex.

And if you don't mind me asking, what does pressure sensitivity have to do with note-taking? If it doesn't, then what you are asking for, the iPad can already do admirably.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWi2n_JtzgY

Palm rejection: check.
Pen input: check.

I just don't like the lag between touch input and visual, but otherwise, it's already possible to do what you are asking for.

 

[Arp_]

In which case, just like above, switch to pen and paper. When you are done with your class, take photos of your notes and then upload them to your tablet. It's not an overly complex workflow as when you are frustrating yourself with stylus and touchscreen. Opening multiple apps might be too complex, but I don't think taking notes with paper then reupload them is that complex.

Well, the discussion is not really about how should I take notes. It's about usability of a tablet. Of course it's absolutely possible to take notes on paper and use tablet for other stuff, but it's like having a razor that can shave everything except the mustache area - just one step from being perfect. I'd like to have a device that can be the only thing I take with me to university, otherwise it doesn't make much difference than carrying a laptop and a bunch of notebooks.
And stylus and touchscreen isn't frustrating at all. As I said, I tested it, and even on a cheap Eee PC it feels not much different from pen&paper, it's pretty comfortable to use.

And if you don't mind me asking, what does pressure sensitivity have to do with note-taking? If it doesn't, then what you are asking for, the iPad can already do admirably.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWi2n_JtzgY

Palm rejection: check.
Pen input: check.

I just don't like the lag between touch input and visual, but otherwise, it's already possible to do what you are asking for.

Pressure sensitivity isn't necessary but it's still nice, for example, for drawing schemes, where you can easily highlight some things by making them bolder, etc. And generally text looks nicer and a bit better readable if the lines have naturally varying thickness.
The video is interesting, it looks kinda better than the iPad stylus I tried, but what bothers me is that tip of the pen is really huge and the guy's handwriting is gigantic compared to mine. I am not sure if it's easy or at all possible to write in much smaller letters and draw tiny details on schemes/graphs with such large tip of the pen. Wacom digitizer has precision that allows you to easily aim even at a single pixel on the screen, I doubt conductive stylus is close to that.

 

[theeedude]

Asus is coming with EEE Pad Memo, supposedly targeting the note-takers.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2375326,00.asp

 

[runawayprisoner]

Like I said, that stylus isn't the best. The most accurate stylus I've seen is the Pogo Stylus, which should work on all capacitive surfaces even though it was made specifically for the iPad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQHsAdtD8wI

Wacom digitizers are very detailed, but it doesn't really matter whether you get pixel-perfect drawing or not because in the end, you aren't drawing on a 16 x 16 canvas. You are drawing on a canvas that's millions of pixels large.

As long as it gets the job done. Who cares if it has pressure sensitivity, angle sensitivity (yes, Wacom also has this), or super high definition performance if you have to pay an arm and a leg to get it? An iPad or typical tablet is about $300 - $500 entry. The nearest Wacom Cintiq is $1000.

 

[Arp_]

As long as it gets the job done. Who cares if it has pressure sensitivity, angle sensitivity (yes, Wacom also has this), or super high definition performance if you have to pay an arm and a leg to get it? An iPad or typical tablet is about $300 - $500 entry. The nearest Wacom Cintiq is $1000.

The Eee PC with Wacom digitizer that I tested was around $500, so the digitizer is probably not that expensive. And I'm not sure yet that those iPad styluses really can get the job done. That pixel-perfect precision of Wacom is what makes it feel so close to usual pen and paper, because it records every slight movement of your hand, every little quirk. If conductive stylus cannot get me that feel that I'm really writing like on a paper, then why should I move to tablet instead of continuing to use usual paper?
I am not searching for a way to get the job done, I already have a way to take notes by writing them on paper. I am simply sharing my thoughts on what capabilities a tablet should have to make me consider buying it. If it doesn't give me same or better experience than pen, then it simply doesn't make sense for me to move from one way of taking notes to another that is worse than the current one.

 

[MrX8503]

Well, the discussion is not really about how should I take notes. It's about usability of a tablet. Of course it's absolutely possible to take notes on paper and use tablet for other stuff, but it's like having a razor that can shave everything except the mustache area - just one step from being perfect. I'd like to have a device that can be the only thing I take with me to university, otherwise it doesn't make much difference than carrying a laptop and a bunch of notebooks.

There isn't going to be a device that will be perfect for everyone. What you want and what works for you may not work for others. We have had stylus tablets for years already and guess what? They failed hard.

Android Tablets and the iPad were not created to make the life of a professional easier at taking notes and giving lectures. Over time it may very well be, but at this current time its catered towards the mass consumers.

And stylus and touchscreen isn't frustrating at all. As I said, I tested it, and even on a cheap Eee PC it feels not much different from pen&paper, it's pretty comfortable to use.

Then what's stopping you from using the Eee PC?

 

[runawayprisoner]

The Eee PC with Wacom digitizer that I tested was around $500, so the digitizer is probably not that expensive. And I'm not sure yet that those iPad styluses really can get the job done. That pixel-perfect precision of Wacom is what makes it feel so close to usual pen and paper, because it records every slight movement of your hand, every little quirk. If conductive stylus cannot get me that feel that I'm really writing like on a paper, then why should I move to tablet instead of continuing to use usual paper?
I am not searching for a way to get the job done, I already have a way to take notes by writing them on paper. I am simply sharing my thoughts on what capabilities a tablet should have to make me consider buying it. If it doesn't give me same or better experience than pen, then it simply doesn't make sense for me to move from one way of taking notes to another that is worse than the current one.

Well, I don't see your Asus Eee PC for $500. If you are talking about the Asus Eee Slate, its price is over $1000, and the lowest I have seen is $1050. Other than that one device, I am not seeing any other Asus Eee PC with a Wacom digitizer.

So yes, the digitizer is that expensive, or whatever else contributed to the price, the whole device is just twice the price of an entry-level iPad.

I'm simply pointing out to you where your input to the discussion might be misled, or misunderstood. Perhaps you would like to get some hands-on time with an iPad and a capacitive stylus to see how they work together again. It's never a bad idea to try something out before you judge it.

 

[Arp_]

There isn't going to be a device that will be perfect for everyone. What you want and what works for you may not work for others. We have had stylus tablets for years already and guess what? They failed hard.

The stylus tablets failed because they had a couple things done right and 10000 things done wrong. iPad and similar tablets became popular because they have 10000 things done right, and only a couple wrong (including stylus input). I know that generally devices aren't perfect for everything, but if something is almost perfect and it needs just one simple thing to finally become perfect, then it's reasonable to expect that at some point some manufacturer will eventually do that simple thing.

Then what's stopping you from using the Eee PC?

Because it's one of those devices with few great things and a a whole lot of not-so-great (for example, the display is awful).

Well, I don't see your Asus Eee PC for $500. If you are talking about the Asus Eee Slate, its price is over $1000, and the lowest I have seen is $1050. Other than that one device, I am not seeing any other Asus Eee PC with a Wacom digitizer.

I think the model I tried was Eee PC T101MT.

 

[theeedude]

Why don't you just play with Garage Band on iPad in class instead of taking notes? Problem solved.

 

[runawayprisoner]

I think the model I tried was Eee PC T101MT.

That one doesn't have a Wacom digitizer. It has a resistive touch screen. Terrible responsiveness even if touch is easier as it doesn't require a conductive surface.

Capacitive touch screens should be heaps better when it comes to responsiveness and precision, though.

 

[MrX8503]

The stylus tablets failed because they had a couple things done right and 10000 things done wrong. iPad and similar tablets became popular because they have 10000 things done right, and only a couple wrong (including stylus input). I know that generally devices aren't perfect for everything, but if something is almost perfect and it needs just one simple thing to finally become perfect, then it's reasonable to expect that at some point some manufacturer will eventually do that simple thing.

I could also say that the iPad does a lot of things right because Apple didn't have to worry about stylus input. Hindsight is always 20/20, who's to say that the iPad would be successful with stylus input?

In any case, I don't think Apple would ever move to a stylus. A capacitive stylus may be your only option.

 

[Arp_]

I could also say that the iPad does a lot of things right because Apple didn't have to worry about stylus input. Hindsight is always 20/20, who's to say that the iPad would be successful with stylus input?

Why would they have to worry about stylus input? With stylus it would be exactly the same device as it is now, but just with additional possibility of taking notes or drawing like on paper, how could that affect its success negatively?

 

[ChAoTiCpInOy]

Why would they have to worry about stylus input? With stylus it would be exactly the same device as it is now, but just with additional possibility of taking notes or drawing like on paper, how could that affect its success negatively?

It wouldnt be as personal. Touching something and using your finger is very personal. It's hard to explain.

 

[Ns1]

Why would they have to worry about stylus input? With stylus it would be exactly the same device as it is now, but just with additional possibility of taking notes or drawing like on paper, how could that affect its success negatively?

cuz stylus' suck ass (having used stylus based smartphones in the past)

 

[DivideBYZero]

Stylus based tablets suck donkey units.

 

[zerocool84]

People need to get over it, stylus based tablets are gone just like stylus based phones are gone. They'll just sell capacitive stylus as an accessory to existing tablets.

 

[Arp_]

I think you understood me completely wrong. I don't mean that tablets should move away from finger touch based interface, of course all interaction with tablet's interface should be done with fingers, I don't propose any changes to this. But there should be an additional digitizer layer on screen so that in note-taking and drawing apps you can choose to use a stylus to write or draw if you wish so. This has nothing to do with stylus-based smartphones/tablets of the past where stylus was the primary way of interacting with apps.

 

[TanisHalfElven]

Being a first gen version of an OS, of course it's gonna be buggy, but the guys at Google will eventually iron out those problems.

Honestly, Moto jumped the gun by not working out some of the bugs first. The hardware is pretty good.

The million dollar question is if the iPad will be like the iPod and Apple will continue to dominate the space, or will other devices be able to dethrone it? I suspect as soon as other manufacturers can compete on price, that the iPad will eventually be dethroned. We shall see...

Maybe not. In the phone sapce you have a lot of people who just want a smart phone and go for the cheaper android option. also cuz iphone is limited to certain carriers.

But when people go out to buy a tablet, its not a neccesity like a phone. I get the feeling the ipad will dominate.... As it should. I'm no apple fan boy, i use a verizon incredible, and love it. But apple does a great job not fluid "just working" interfaces and software. I've played with the iphone 4 and ipad 1 and been really impressed by its smoothness. The hodgepodge of android tablets will not be able to compete against that.

 

[runawayprisoner]

Well, there is nothing holding you back from using a capacitive stylus. A resistive digitizer is not necessary for having pen input.

And it only has a chance to benefit note-taking, if at all. Typing with the on-screen keyboard is still much faster, and many professional artists have proven time after time that they don't need pen to draw.

 

[TanisHalfElven]

I think you understood me completely wrong. I don't mean that tablets should move away from finger touch based interface, of course all interaction with tablet's interface should be done with fingers, I don't propose any changes to this. But there should be an additional digitizer layer on screen so that in note-taking and drawing apps you can choose to use a stylus to write or draw if you wish so. This has nothing to do with stylus-based smartphones/tablets of the past where stylus was the primary way of interacting with apps.

http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-Slate-EP1.../dp/B004HKIIF8

this is what you want.
I want it too

 

[Arp_]

and many professional artists have proven time after time that they don't need pen to draw.

Don't need doesn't mean they won't use it. They don't need a tablet to draw either, yet many of them are using tablets.
They draw without (proper) pen currently because there's no other way, but if there was a pen, I hardly believe that they'd use anything else to draw.

 

[runawayprisoner]

Well, some of them do use capacitive pens and did compliment them.

So it's not like they don't even have a choice. They do. They just don't need it. Just like they have a choice between tablet and traditional medium, and they choose tablet or traditional medium, but not because they don't have any choice.

 

[BoberFett]

many professional artists have proven time after time that they don't need pen to draw.

/facepalm

The human race has proven for millions of years that they don't need tablet computers at all to survive.

 

[runawayprisoner]

/facepalm

The human race has proven for millions of years that they don't need tablet computers at all to survive.

Well, there is a difference. You are talking about a living condition. I was talking about convenience of a tool vs without.

You don't need tablet computers, but some parts of your life are easier with them. It's arguably not a lot or any easier for an artist to have a pen.