So how exactly do Europeans cope with high prices?

[Farley2k]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Aside from being able to take the bus or train anywhere at any time, social welfare is a huge huge part of it. Once the rent and food are paid, everything else is disposable. Don't need to save for college, because college is fairly cheap (free in some countries). Don't need to save for sickness, because healthcare is free. Don't need to save for retirement, because that's taken care of (in some countries)..

Oh yeah, and they don't need cars. My car's gas and insurance is about $4500 per year. Maybe $5500 if I include repairs (oil, replace windshield, winter tire changeover, etc).

is it fair to the person who doesn't want to go to college? is it fair to the person who lives healthy and doesn't want comprehensive healthcare? is it fair to the person who'd rather invest in higher returning assets for retirement?

Originally posted by: JS80
is it fair to the person who doesn't want to go to college? is it fair to the person who lives healthy and doesn't want comprehensive healthcare? is it fair to the person who'd rather invest in higher returning assets for retirement?

It is not fair, but we don't get to decide what our tax dollars go towards here in the US either. I would love to have all the taxes I paid for the Iraq war back. How is it "fair" that I have to foot the bill for that war?

Unfortunately as a society we seem to have made the choice that the military/industrial complex is more important that college/daycare/healthcare/etc. I don't agree with that and I work against it but it is the same lack of "fairness" you seem to be faulting Europe for.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
actually a lot of european countries have large militaries. france and uk are something like 10% of gdp, and almost everyone in switzerland has military training.

It depends on how you want to look at it. France comes the closest to the US with 4.27 active troops per thousand citizens (the US has 4.76). But going down the list Germany has 3.45 The highest in Europe is Finland with 5.17.

The key is that none of the European countries alone has enough troops to fight a "real" war where either their own soil is threatened or they would need to occupy land. Furthermore, most of these countries are unable to project most of their power worldwide. In essence these countries have small armies that are "light" in terms of heavy equipment.

Compare for instance that Globalfirepower.com shows the following:

Item - US - France
Naval units - 1866 - 140
Armored vehicles - 29920 - 6875
Aircraft - 18169 - 2175

etc, etc

Simply put, the only way European countries could fight a full war is by combining the resources of every country. It would be interesting but I would bet that the military strength of all of Europe is about the same or less as that of the US despite the US having less than half the population.

 

[Demo24]

Originally posted by: soonerproud

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
actually a lot of european countries have large militaries. france and uk are something like 10% of gdp, and almost everyone in switzerland has military training.

France and the UK are the exceptions in Europe and not the rule.

umm, care to be more specific or would you rather generalize and hope we know what you're talking about. I can't think of a single western European country without a decent military.



edit: nvm, explained above.

 

[MmmSkyscraper]

Originally posted by: jjsole
Even tho its more expensive in Europe, Europeans are still similar life forms as in the United States, which technically don't require out eating at expensive restaurants each week to survive.

That might be the closest anyone's come to a compliment regarding Europeans on here recently 😛

 

[thomsbrain]

They live in small urban apartments. They don't own cars, or if they do, they have 1 liter turbodiesel engines paired to manual transmissions and get 60 MPG. They eat less and stay healthier. They travel quickly and easily by train instead of car/air.

Sort of on a tangent: In my vacation to Scotland, I was absolutely amazed at the power of public transportation there. Their country-wide train service is as fast and easy to use as the best rapid light rail solutions in any American city, and they were amazingly clean, spacious, quiet, and comfortable. They even had snack carts going by once in a while. In the bigger cities, you can hail a 5-seater cab in a matter of seconds. They have regular bus service with stops everywhere, even in rural areas in the middle of nowhere. It was impressive enough that I had to concede that there wasn't much use in owning a car, except for the pleasure of driving.

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
actually a lot of european countries have large militaries. france and uk are something like 10% of gdp, and almost everyone in switzerland has military training.

It depends on how you want to look at it. France comes the closest to the US with 4.27 active troops per thousand citizens (the US has 4.76). But going down the list Germany has 3.45 The highest in Europe is Finland with 5.17.

The key is that none of the European countries alone has enough troops to fight a "real" war where either their own soil is threatened or they would need to occupy land. Furthermore, most of these countries are unable to project most of their power worldwide. In essence these countries have small armies that are "light" in terms of heavy equipment.

Compare for instance that Globalfirepower.com shows the following:

Item - US - France
Naval units - 1866 - 140
Armored vehicles - 29920 - 6875
Aircraft - 18169 - 2175

etc, etc

Simply put, the only way European countries could fight a full war is by combining the resources of every country. It would be interesting but I would bet that the military strength of all of Europe is about the same or less as that of the US despite the US having less than half the population.

Russia is arguably part of Europe, and is not particularly light in terms of equipment.
Also Europe would fight as a combined force because if one country is under threat, then most of them are going to be if it's a proper war, and not a bit of infighting between ethnic groups.

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
They live in small urban apartments. They don't own cars, or if they do, they have 1 liter turbodiesel engines paired to manual transmissions and get 60 MPG. They eat less and stay healthier. They travel quickly and easily by train instead of car/air.

The amusing part is that when they come here on vacation or for work they go nuts. The ones I know who moved here for an extended amount of time (1+ year) all bought themselves SUVs and such, along with eating like pigs. 😛

 

[soonerproud]

Originally posted by: Lonyo
Russia is arguably part of Europe, and is not particularly light in terms of equipment.
Also Europe would fight as a combined force because if one country is under threat, then most of them are going to be if it's a proper war, and not a bit of infighting between ethnic groups.

Russia is also arguably part of Asia also. Does that mean they are going to team up with China too?

Historically the biggest threats in Europe have come from inside of Europe. Russia is probably the biggest threat Europe faces outside of the Middle East. (Iran)

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Random Variable
It's a very misleading comparison. Prices are only much higher relative to the U.S. dollar.

the average european family in western europe is smaller than the average poor family's house in the US.

That's true only if you exclude Muslim families, which is why some western Europen countries might eventually have Muslim majorities.

Hopefully they'll come to their senses and take the appropriate action before that happens. Seriously, how many Muslim countries will allow Europeans to breed out of control and take over? Should the Europeans allow the converse to happen?

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: Lonyo

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
actually a lot of european countries have large militaries. france and uk are something like 10% of gdp, and almost everyone in switzerland has military training.

It depends on how you want to look at it. France comes the closest to the US with 4.27 active troops per thousand citizens (the US has 4.76). But going down the list Germany has 3.45 The highest in Europe is Finland with 5.17.

The key is that none of the European countries alone has enough troops to fight a "real" war where either their own soil is threatened or they would need to occupy land. Furthermore, most of these countries are unable to project most of their power worldwide. In essence these countries have small armies that are "light" in terms of heavy equipment.

Compare for instance that Globalfirepower.com shows the following:

Item - US - France
Naval units - 1866 - 140
Armored vehicles - 29920 - 6875
Aircraft - 18169 - 2175

etc, etc

Simply put, the only way European countries could fight a full war is by combining the resources of every country. It would be interesting but I would bet that the military strength of all of Europe is about the same or less as that of the US despite the US having less than half the population.

Russia is arguably part of Europe, and is not particularly light in terms of equipment.
Also Europe would fight as a combined force because if one country is under threat, then most of them are going to be if it's a proper war, and not a bit of infighting between ethnic groups.

What continent Russia belongs on is debatable. The point I was making is that people compare the *entire* US to a single western European country. To make a fair comparison you need to include all of Europe. Saying that France or Germany has a strong military while talking about the US is a ridiculous statement because alone that are not anywhere *near* strong enough to counter a major threat.

To get back on topic, the strength of the US military and the relative peace it has allowed for in the past half century has partially subsidized the cost of defense for other countries.

 

[Koing]

Originally posted by: MmmSkyscraper

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Aside from being able to take the bus or train anywhere at any time, social welfare is a huge huge part of it. Once the rent and food are paid, everything else is disposable. Don't need to save for college, because college is fairly cheap (free in some countries). Don't need to save for sickness, because healthcare is free. Don't need to save for retirement, because that's taken care of (in some countries)..

Oh yeah, and they don't need cars. My car's gas and insurance is about $4500 per year. Maybe $5500 if I include repairs (oil, replace windshield, winter tire changeover, etc).

For the UK

1. Public transport is shit and costs a fortune
it isn't too bad depending on where you live. in london it is pretty good and not that pricey imo. 80gbp for a months travel is not bad imo, even in surrey it isn't too bad
2. Attending university is not cheap or free
you can get loans and it is now bout 3k gbp a year for 3yrs, still cheaper then american uni's and if you intend on going to uni hopefully the guys should be able to earn 17-20k to pay back the loan, and then it's only 9 percent over the 15k minimum
3. Healthcare sucks and you have to rely on private cover to make up for the failure of the NHS
it isn't too bad again. the longer waiting time sucks if you need stuff done, but the ER in hospitals work well. seeing a dr is fine. but i like my private healthcare with the companies that i have worked for, but thank f0ck i have not needed any treatments1. it costs 10k usd for a woman to give birth in the states i think/ my mate was telling me about this, but his wife is living in the uk so he'll save 10k usd1
4. The state pension is worthless and has to be shored up by whatever you can throw at it from your salary, which then gets ludicrously taxed on top of all the other taxation
pretty dam true. it is basically worthless but i don't plan on relying on that to get me by when i retire1
5. See point 1

stuff is only expensive to you guys because your usd is doing so poorly currently. people here earn in their currencies and it is relative.

i lived off a poor salary but i lived at home and with free rent, food and no bills. now i'm earning nearly 3x as much as my first job out of uni, i'm spending only a bit more on non essentials [eating out, going out a bit more] as when i was earning my poor salary. i'm saving a lot and investing it.

the average salary in the uk is about 22k gbp right/ well thats pretty crap to support 2 adults and 2 children but people make do. a lot of people live in debt, have no savings or retirement plans and drive nice cars.

i drive a sh1t car [600 gbp11111, limping 3yrs on] but have invested my money in the stock market and property. these are choices people make. it would be nice to drive a good car but i went in to property and the stock market, but now i am able to get a reasonably nice car. my mate dropped 32k gbp on a new car which he could have used to invest on the stock market or buy a house, but he already has property so he was less inclined to buy another place.

koing

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: Koing
my mate dropped 32k gbp on a new car which he could have used to invest on the stock market or buy a house, but he already has property so he was less inclined to buy another place.

koing

That would buy you a brand new M3 here, pretty much fully equipped too.

 

[Koing]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: Koing
my mate dropped 32k gbp on a new car which he could have used to invest on the stock market or buy a house, but he already has property so he was less inclined to buy another place.

koing

That would buy you a brand new M3 here, pretty much fully equipped too.

yeah it's completely disgusting the price difference in cars1. theres also hardly any point in importing one over due to the lhd rhd issue and the taxes also...

i'm going to get an e46 2002 m3 [dream affordable car since i saw jc drive it back in 2001 or 2002 on top gear] for 17-19k gbp, saving myself a BOAT load of money1 but he drops his cash on a brand new s3. i don't think i'll ever buy a brand new car. it isn't worth it to me, the depreciation is sick. his s3 will be only worth 55 percent of retail in 3yrs time. his car is pretty dam fast though.

my current car does 0-60mph in about 15secs with it's 50 dead horses under the hood. the m3 has 343bhp and does it in 4.8.

koing

 

[StinkyPinky]

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
They trade purchasing power for social stability. They pay very high taxes to fund the entitlement programs that we so much despise. We on the other hand have alot of purchasing power, but alot of social instability and crime that results from the povery that is the result of our do or die type system. They also have the benefit of a U.S. funded security blanket courtesy of the U.S. military, which safeguards their borders, their world markets, and world trade routes that helps make their lifestyle possible since they can divert military spending to social programs.

Come again? Do you honestly think we protect Europe with our military? Dude, they're hardly helpless. THe combined might of the EU can easily repel any invader. The UK or France alone would be able to repel places like Russia and China.

Our military presence is for our benefit, not their protection. Not anymore.

 

[miri]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
The amusing part is that when they come here on vacation or for work they go nuts. The ones I know who moved here for an extended amount of time (1+ year) all bought themselves SUVs and such, along with eating like pigs. 😛

Yeah, some of the roads in the cities are so narrow there that when you are walking you have to hug the walls to avoid getting hit by cars, a good reason to be skinny in Europe and making it tough for larger SUVs to fit.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: StinkyPinky

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
They trade purchasing power for social stability. They pay very high taxes to fund the entitlement programs that we so much despise. We on the other hand have alot of purchasing power, but alot of social instability and crime that results from the povery that is the result of our do or die type system. They also have the benefit of a U.S. funded security blanket courtesy of the U.S. military, which safeguards their borders, their world markets, and world trade routes that helps make their lifestyle possible since they can divert military spending to social programs.

Come again? Do you honestly think we protect Europe with our military? Dude, they're hardly helpless. THe combined might of the EU can easily repel any invader. The UK or France alone would be able to repel places like Russia and China.

Our military presence is for our benefit, not their protection. Not anymore.

The US continues to act as a deterrent despite its diminished power. But if you look at it Russia could EASILY destroy France alone. There's no way it could defeat all of Europe but it could easily defeat most of them.

 

[soonerproud]

Originally posted by: StinkyPinky
Come again? Do you honestly think we protect Europe with our military? Dude, they're hardly helpless. THe combined might of the EU can easily repel any invader. The UK or France alone would be able to repel places like Russia and China.

Our military presence is for our benefit, not their protection. Not anymore.

Have you ever heard of NATO? Now take a guess which country both financially and militarily makes NATO possible? If you guessed France, Germany or the UK, you are dead wrong. None of these countries on their own have the capacity or resources to spear head NATO. If the US bailed out on NATO tomorrow, it would collapse and Europe would be in grave danger.

There is not a single European country that has the capacity to repel China or Russia. Since the EU does not have a unified military, it falls on NATO to defend Europe from aggression by emerging super powers.

Our military presence benefits Europe as much as it benefits us.

 

[Koing]

Originally posted by: miri

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
The amusing part is that when they come here on vacation or for work they go nuts. The ones I know who moved here for an extended amount of time (1+ year) all bought themselves SUVs and such, along with eating like pigs. 😛

Yeah, some of the roads in the cities are so narrow there that when you are walking you have to hug the walls to avoid getting hit by cars, a good reason to be skinny in Europe and making it tough for larger SUVs to fit.

i'm not a fan of suv's personally but you americans are bigger and if yoru 6'4 and theres a few of you guys getting in to a mid sized saloon is hardly going to be that pratical1

i prefer smaller more nimble cars.

koing

 

[MmmSkyscraper]

Originally posted by: Koing
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YHPM 🙂