So, how come no one has asked the presidential candidates

[SSSnail]

On how to stop corruptions and our tax dollars efficiency relative to results? How about accountability for government employees?

I think we'll be in much better shape if we can improve these aspects by just 20%.

 

[trenchfoot]

Ordering our corrupted politicians to stop being corrupted is like telling Donald Trump to stop being himself.

On the subject of accountability for gov't workers who, like anyone else in the private sector, are primarily concerned with keeping their jobs, being held accountable for their worthiness is anathema to their primary concern.

Justifying one's existence in a bureaucracy full of personality conflicts, turf wars, fiefdom building, ass-kissing, back stabbing, coat tail hanging, politically connected incompetents.......well, holding them accountable while they attempt to prove their worthiness and hang on to their job is practically impossible where a culture of being anonymous is directly built in to the system, as well as how tightly integrated the highly refined game of passing the buck in a circle is.

In regard to being suspiciously protective of our tax dollars, on the one hand, you have those bureaucrats who are responsible for doling out those dollars, while on the other hand we have those that are competing for those sawbucks. What goes on in-between the two is a mysterious grey area hidden under tons and tons of paperwork that would make any multi-billionaire that's fervently attempting to hide every cent they make green with envy. Favors are given and repaid. Inside info is surreptitiously handed out on the low-low. The connected want to remain connected. The have's want to keep out the have-not's.

This time-honored system has been honed to a razor's edge after decades and decades of refinement.

Getting rid of it is, IMO, impossible.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

There's records of corrupted politicians back in the Roman senate... kinda burned into the dna of politics at this point

 

[pauldun170]

How about accountability for government employees?

Like law enforcement? Or the weird guy at the DMV? Maybe some douche at the DA's office?
You have examples of people not being held accountable?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

It says something when bridge repairs today (with far more advanced technology) cost more than entire bridge constructions in the 1930s, and take three times as long to accomplish. It's not just administration/bureaucrats on the top that are skimming, it happens all the way down to the common worker. The problem is that life is too comfortable and the incentives to accomplish work is low, aside from a small percentage of inventors and venture capitalists. I can't wait until China kills us with the fastest growing middle class in the world, Americans are degenerate.

 

[agent00f]

It says something when bridge repairs today (with far more advanced technology) cost more than entire bridge constructions in the 1930s, and take three times as long to accomplish. It's not just administration/bureaucrats on the top that are skimming, it happens all the way down to the common worker. The problem is that life is too comfortable and the incentives to accomplish work is low, aside from a small percentage of inventors and venture capitalists. I can't wait until China kills us with the fastest growing middle class in the world, Americans are degenerate.

What's ironic about this topic is that much of the inefficiency stems from guarding against corruption. That's why there's endless discussion and a paper trail a mile long to get anything done, just to demonstrate everything is reasonably above board. That's why the worst gubmint corruption in the US is at the local level where the safeguards aren't as stringent. That's also why in contrast things get done in china but amidst a whirlwind of corruption.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

China is corrupt in different ways, usually more with regards to worker exploitation/lack of a body to petition to. Because they're still developing, it inevitably leads to cut corners and less emphasis on human safety, and therefore more construction mishaps. On the other hand, they execute their billionaires when they commit outright scams, something that doesn't happen anywhere in the West, which actually keeps everyone in line. Benevolent authoritarianism isn't the prettiest kind of government, but it gets stuff done as long as all the right incentives are in play.

 

[SSSnail]

Like law enforcement? Or the weird guy at the DMV? Maybe some douche at the DA's office?
You have examples of people not being held accountable?

Off top of my head: new Bay Bridge span. One example that covers everything I mentioned.

 

[Blackjack200]

Like law enforcement? Or the weird guy at the DMV? Maybe some douche at the DA's office?
You have examples of people not being held accountable?

Yeah, you can find waste/corruption, but my experience is that there's much less of it in the federal government than there is in private business.

It says something when bridge repairs today (with far more advanced technology) cost more than entire bridge constructions in the 1930s, and take three times as long to accomplish. It's not just administration/bureaucrats on the top that are skimming, it happens all the way down to the common worker. The problem is that life is too comfortable and the incentives to accomplish work is low, aside from a small percentage of inventors and venture capitalists. I can't wait until China kills us with the fastest growing middle class in the world, Americans are degenerate.

Really? Are you a civil engineer? Do you have direct experience in public infrastructure projects? The Brooklyn Bridge cost $3.5 billion in inflation adjusted dollars. The new Tappan Zee bridge (a MUCH longer bridge) is $3.9 billion. http://www.businessinsider.com/brooklyn-bridge-strangest-facts-2015-10
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Tappan_Zee_Bridge

Are you just talking out of your ass?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I was referring to the Bay Bridge construction, to keep it apples to apples.

EDIT: wait nvm regarding my comment on the bridge you just mentioned

 

[SSSnail]

Yeah, you can find waste/corruption, but my experience is that there's much less of it in the federal government than there is in private business.



Really? Are you a civil engineer? Do you have direct experience in public infrastructure projects? The Brooklyn Bridge cost $3.5 billion in inflation adjusted dollars. The new Tappan Zee bridge (a MUCH longer bridge) is $3.9 billion. http://www.businessinsider.com/brooklyn-bridge-strangest-facts-2015-10
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Tappan_Zee_Bridge

Are you just talking out of your ass?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millau_Viaduct
$400mil Euros. Your turn.

 

[agent00f]

China is corrupt in different ways, usually more with regards to worker exploitation/lack of a body to petition to. Because they're still developing, it inevitably leads to cut corners and less emphasis on human safety, and therefore more construction mishaps. On the other hand, they execute their billionaires when they commit outright scams, something that doesn't happen anywhere in the West, which actually keeps everyone in line. Benevolent authoritarianism isn't the prettiest kind of government, but it gets stuff done as long as all the right incentives are in play.

Appears you're simply aware of the magnitude of corruption in china, to the extent that if they executed all the outright corrupt officials there'd be nobody left to run anything. This is a situation it's best to research the matter further rather than continuing to dig.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Appears you're simply aware of the magnitude of corruption in china, to the extent that if they executed all the outright corrupt officials there'd be nobody left to run anything. This is a situation it's best to research the matter further rather than continuing to dig.

This thread is about efficiency. If you want to talk about and quantify corruption in general, then sure, I bet there are metrics by which China is exceptionally corrupt. In the context of corruption causing inefficiency, you'll have to elaborate. Local cops taking bribes over traffic violations, for example, would be a kind of corruption that does not happen here while being fairly common in developing nations. That could be completely unrelated to the kind of corruption that results in contractors buddying up with the government and billions of tax dollars being funneled to crappy infrastructure, useless attack helicopters, over-priced medication, etc.

 

[agent00f]

This thread is about efficiency.

Op:

"On how to stop corruptions and...."

If you want to talk about and quantify corruption in general, then sure, I bet there are metrics by which China is exceptionally corrupt. In the context of corruption causing inefficiency, you'll have to elaborate. Local cops taking bribes over traffic violations, for example, would be a kind of corruption that does not happen here while being fairly common in developing nations, but that could be completely unrelated to the kind of corruption that results in contractors buddying up with the government and billions of dollars being funneled to crappy infrastructure, useless attack helicopters, over-priced medication, etc.

Let's put it this way, the most corrupt politicians in the US would probably be among the least in china. To the extent that the non-corrupt cannot survive in that environment. What you're complaining about is a first world problem.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I think corruption is a culturally relative term and you still need to provide examples if the way lobbying in this country isn't a form of corruption, or the endless tedium in our laws and tax codes that allow vastly different outcomes for individuals according to their ability to afford good lawyers/CPAs.

 

[agent00f]

I think corruption is a culturally relative term and you still need to provide examples if the way lobbying in this country isn't a form of corruption, or the endless tedium in our laws and tax codes that allow vastly different outcomes for individuals according to their ability to afford good lawyers/CPAs.

I'm well aware of the corruption in the US and in china from some business there. For example, in the US you would never get various officials visiting some private office and hinting that some relative is looking for work, which they'll find least there be regulatory issues. If the office is smart and they find a great job there's a quid pro quo relationship. If that blatant yet casual level of corrupt is normal, you can imagine what is tolerated for those with actual power. There's basically no limit other than literal pitchfork mobs burning a gubmint building down in disgust, which happens on occasion particular in the countryside. I also have some connection to real estate there where the money involved makes the sums which send people to jail in the US inconsequential, for example it's typical for a level or two in a new highrise to be divided among political beneficiaries, and as you can see there are lot of expensive new buildings in the country.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Fair enough, I don't have any personal experience with China, although I'd argue that even what you describe is a kind of low-level corruption similar to my previous example about bribing cops. When a nation gains enough wealth, the risks associated with those kinds of bribes usually outweighs the potential benefits. So here in the USA, inspectors don't resort to thumbscrews on the little people, the little people get paid well enough to consume. Instead, the higher-ups ask for longer extensions and more money for projects that benefit specific businesses more than actual people, but everyone is too dissociated or powerless to even give a shit. But maybe there is another way of putting it, with the example of the French bridge above being built quickly and relatively cheaply, in spite of Western Europe obviously being plenty wealthy and tax-happy themselves.

 

[MongGrel]

This thread is about efficiency. If you want to talk about and quantify corruption in general, then sure, I bet there are metrics by which China is exceptionally corrupt. In the context of corruption causing inefficiency, you'll have to elaborate. Local cops taking bribes over traffic violations, for example, would be a kind of corruption that does not happen here while being fairly common in developing nations. That could be completely unrelated to the kind of corruption that results in contractors buddying up with the government and billions of tax dollars being funneled to crappy infrastructure, useless attack helicopters, over-priced medication, etc.

China is corrupt in different ways, usually more with regards to worker exploitation/lack of a body to petition to. Because they're still developing, it inevitably leads to cut corners and less emphasis on human safety, and therefore more construction mishaps. On the other hand, they execute their billionaires when they commit outright scams, something that doesn't happen anywhere in the West, which actually keeps everyone in line. Benevolent authoritarianism isn't the prettiest kind of government, but it gets stuff done as long as all the right incentives are in play.

I would actually agree with you on a few of those points.

The US in the past was pretty lax on worker safety when building it's infrastructure decades ago starting out, many were killed and worker safety was not an huge issue.

China and a few other countries operate along the same lines these days.

There are obvious human rights issues, but the US and several countries take advantage of that on a corporate level.

Most Government paper pushers are perfectly happy just to sit on their butts not actually producing anything has been my experience these days, but that is Beurocracy in action for a long time now I suppose.

 

[agent00f]

Fair enough, I don't have any personal experience with China, although I'd argue that even what you describe is a kind of low-level corruption similar to my previous example about bribing cops. When a nation gains enough wealth, the risks associated with those kinds of bribes usually outweighs the potential benefits. So here in the USA, inspectors don't resort to thumbscrews on the little people, the little people get paid well enough to consume. Instead, the higher-ups ask for longer extensions and more money for projects that benefit specific businesses more than actual people, but everyone is too dissociated or powerless to even give a shit. But maybe there is another way of putting it, with the example of the French bridge above being built quickly and relatively cheaply, in spite of Western Europe obviously being plenty wealthy and tax-happy themselves.

It's almost cute how little americans understand of corruption. When I say "beneficiaries" above, consider where the loans and various other paperwork signoffs for that building comes from. Now consider how many offices are in that building per the first example with connections to various state organs. Now contrast that tip of the iceberg for an entire system to how relatively straightforward american business operates. This isn't just china but how much of the world works to one extent or another.

 

[JEDIYoda]

On how to stop corruptions and our tax dollars efficiency relative to results? How about accountability for government employees?

I think we'll be in much better shape if we can improve these aspects by just 20%.

hahahahaaaaaa...what happened? Did you go to sleep and wake up 20 years later....rofl...hhahahahaaa

 

[Blackjack200]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millau_Viaduct
$400mil Euros. Your turn.

Daily Traffic: 10,000 - 25,000

Tappan Zee Bridge: 138,000

You're comparing a 2.4 km four lane bridge with a tenth the daily traffic to a 4.8 km eight lane bridge that's being built 15 years later.

Nice job.

 

[Blackjack200]

Instead, the higher-ups ask for longer extensions and more money for projects that benefit specific businesses more than actual people, but everyone is too dissociated or powerless to even give a shit.

What are you even talking about? What the fuck are you talking about?

But maybe there is another way of putting it, with the example of the French bridge above being built quickly and relatively cheaply, in spite of Western Europe obviously being plenty wealthy and tax-happy themselves.

That's only an example of someone being clueless about bridges.

 

[Blackjack200]

It's almost cute how little americans understand of corruption.

Actual problems:
Global Warming
Police Brutality
Decaying Infrastructure

Shit Americans are Worried About:
Corruption
Terrorism
Public Debt

 

[K1052]

Off top of my head: new Bay Bridge span. One example that covers everything I mentioned.

The new Eastern Span was entirely a California project. Back in the day the state thought they could save a bunch of money by using foreign components and structure so they forwent seeking any federal funding (thereby avoiding "buy american" requirements)....which would have come with significant oversight and cost controls. Like a lot of things it got wrapped up in local politics and arguments and the result was a massive overspend for an inferior product. In short local pols, groups, and Caltrans screwed this project to high heaven. None of which would have been affected by who is president.

You want to improve cost effectiveness in infrastructure construction then I have two words for you: design build.

 

[Mursilis]

The new Eastern Span was entirely a California project. Back in the day the state thought they could save a bunch of money by using foreign components and structure so they forwent seeking any federal funding (thereby avoiding "buy american" requirements)....which would have come with significant oversight and cost controls. Like a lot of things it got wrapped up in local politics and arguments and the result was a massive overspend for an inferior product. In short local pols, groups, and Caltrans screwed this project to high heaven. None of which would have been affected by who is president.

You want to improve cost effectiveness in infrastructure construction then I have two words for you: design build.

Really, you could say that about a lot of things in gov't. Gov't is inefficient because efficiency really isn't the primary goal. You've also got to please various interest groups, make sure no one is offended, spread the spending to as broad a base as possible, etc., etc. The public sector has all the inefficiencies of the private sector minus the correcting mechanism of the profit motive. Also, given the inherent short-sightedness of democracies, it's easy for an entrenched bureaucracy to 'bunker down' and survive most political storms. Elected officials come and go all the time, but entrenched bureaucrats are here for life.