So apparently more of us need to go to College

[IndyColtsFan]

Yea. As I have been told by marketing manager professors in college.

In 5-10 years:

-2yr degrees will be like high school diploma level
-4 yr degree will go as far as a 2yr degree
-Masters will be the new "norm" like the 4 yr degree was for decades
-Doctor degrees will still be up there, but less and less needed unless going into a specific specialization of a science/medical field

I think the biggest thing that helped me in college, was making myself go to a university that had a mandatory Co-op program. basically it turned a 4yr program into 5. And the middle 3 years I would go to school for half of it for classes and the other half I would work as a paid intern for some company in my field. Not only did I gain actual experience, both in corporate politics and what its like to be an engineer, but opened up doorways through networking. So upon graduation, finding a job when I have 2yrs experience on top of a degree, helped out bunches.

Yeah, I'd hate to be a new grad now. It is scary out there. I'm even scared I will have trouble making it to retirement with just a BS degree but I am not prepared to sink lots of money into a Master's with no guaranteed pay back.

 

[diesbudt]

Yeah, I'd hate to be a new grad now. It is scary out there. I'm even scared I will have trouble making it to retirement with just a BS degree but I am not prepared to sink lots of money into a Master's with no guaranteed pay back.

Yea i am thiking in a year or 2, to see if my workplace will work with me by getting a masters degree part time that would focus what I already do for them.

But overall experience usually trumps a piece of paper with pretty decorations on it.

 

[unokitty]

My perception is that there is a lot of denial regarding the value of different degrees and that there is substantial misuse of statistics to support the status quo.

Question One
From a vocational perspective, are all four year degrees worth the same?

We all know that the answer is no. But its common to lump all degrees into one category and present a statistic such as "Degree holders average $XX,XXX income per year." But I would put forth the proposition that while this stat may be true, it is also misleading.

For example, there are studies that show starting incomes vary widely within a University as well as varying widely among holders of the same degrees from different institutions. For example one study of Virginia graduates indicated that:

"Of the most popular courses of study, recipients of four-year nursing degrees earned the most in average first-year of wages – $48,959. Those with biology degrees earned the least, at $27,893. Those with two-year nursing degrees averaged $45,342.

Graduates of occupational/technical associate’s degree programs, with an average salary of just under $40,000, out-earned not only nonoccupational associate’s degree graduates – by about $6,000 – but also bachelor’s degree graduates by almost $2,500 statewide.

At the bachelor’s degree level, the highest-earning graduates came from two career-oriented programs at the University of Richmond, where those who majored in information sciences and in human resources management averaged more than $69,000 per year. Meanwhile, graduates from six*teen programs across Virginia – most of them liberal arts programs, such as philosophy or fine arts – earned on average less than $24,000."

Question Two
Does the Federal Government loan money to students without regard to their major and their potential future earnings?

From my perspective, we have a government loan program that is badly out of sync with society's needs.

Question Three
Does anyone think that loaning young people tens of thousands of dollars to get degrees where they are not likely to have sufficient earnings to repay that loan is a good policy?

Note that I am not against education.

If you come from a family that can afford to spend $100,000 for you to get a Masters in Fine Arts, I think that that is great.

If however you think that the government owes you the right to use $100,000 of taxpayer money to pursue your MFA, I disagree.

Uno

 

[KlokWyze]

My perception is that there is a lot of denial regarding the value of different degrees and that there is substantial misuse of statistics to support the status quo.

Question One
From a vocational perspective, are all four year degrees worth the same?

We all know that the answer is no. But its common to lump all degrees into one category and present a statistic such as "Degree holders average $XX,XXX income per year." But I would put forth the proposition that while this stat may be true, it is also misleading.

For example, there are studies that show starting incomes vary widely within a University as well as varying widely among holders of the same degrees from different institutions. For example one study of Virginia graduates indicated that:

"Of the most popular courses of study, recipients of four-year nursing degrees earned the most in average first-year of wages – $48,959. Those with biology degrees earned the least, at $27,893. Those with two-year nursing degrees averaged $45,342.

Graduates of occupational/technical associate’s degree programs, with an average salary of just under $40,000, out-earned not only nonoccupational associate’s degree graduates – by about $6,000 – but also bachelor’s degree graduates by almost $2,500 statewide.

At the bachelor’s degree level, the highest-earning graduates came from two career-oriented programs at the University of Richmond, where those who majored in information sciences and in human resources management averaged more than $69,000 per year. Meanwhile, graduates from six*teen programs across Virginia – most of them liberal arts programs, such as philosophy or fine arts – earned on average less than $24,000."

Question Two
Does the Federal Government loan money to students without regard to their major and their potential future earnings?

From my perspective, we have a government loan program that is badly out of sync with society's needs.

Question Three
Does anyone think that loaning young people tens of thousands of dollars to get degrees where they are not likely to have sufficient earnings to repay that loan is a good policy?

Note that I am not against education.

If you come from a family that can afford to spend $100,000 for you to get a Masters in Fine Arts, I think that that is great.

If however you think that the government owes you the right to use $100,000 of taxpayer money to pursue your MFA, I disagree.

Uno

You mean the US government is out of touch with current and future trends? They are wasting money?!?!?!? WUT?! Unfortunately, American society and our educational systems are equally out of touch.

All these loans are just another bubble that will burst.

 

[Vdubchaos]

You mean the US government is out of touch with current and future trends? They are wasting money?!?!?!? WUT?! Unfortunately, American society and our educational systems are equally out of touch.

All these loans are just another bubble that will burst.

You can say that again.

Government works for corps, not people. People should NEVER forget that.

 

[Vdubchaos]

Yea i am thiking in a year or 2, to see if my workplace will work with me by getting a masters degree part time that would focus what I already do for them.

But overall experience usually trumps a piece of paper with pretty decorations on it.

That would be the best way to go about it. Outside of scholarship, getting employer to pay for education is the best case scenario.

Assuming you can find one that will (this day and age)

 

[OverVolt]

Alot of people are living under a rock.

Going into college now isn't worth it. There are more degrees than jobs that require said degree. Its that simple.

The way college is funded is also in piss poor shape. "I'm gonna be rich!" lawyers taking out huge loans thinking they will be making $100k only to find themselves in a call center with $1000/mo student loan payments.

I know more people under crushing amounts of debt under age 30 than I know people for whom college actually paid off. Age matters alot. Generation Y got screwed. Generation X made off okay.

 

[OverVolt]

You mean the US government is out of touch with current and future trends? They are wasting money?!?!?!? WUT?! Unfortunately, American society and our educational systems are equally out of touch.

All these loans are just another bubble that will burst.

yes

 

[Eureka]

The point is not to just take a degree thinking it will make you better, but to take a degree knowing you're good at something and it will make you viable to use your abilities.

I have a degree and I had a job a full two semesters before I graduated. Other people in the same boat had no job coming out of school. The difference? I went into school knowing what I like to do, and what kind of job I would be good at. The school merely taught me extra skills and provided me with the network and background to get that job. Other people in my degree got the degree because they had nothing else planned. They just wanted to do something.

The employers can see whether or not you're truly interested in something. Getting a degree only shows you took the necessarily steps to get you in that door.

 

[Triumph]

College degrees used to be worth more because less people had them. Now more people have them so they're worth less. I don't know why people don't understand this. Apparently the way to fix this is to put more people in college?

And do I have to play the game? I'm a mechanical engineer with 10 years of experience. I could get a masters in ME if I wanted to, work would pay for it, but I haven't really been interested in doing so. Should I just get one because in 10-15 years (I'm not retiring anytime soon) it will be a requirement? Like, it won't even matter what my masters focused on, just that I have one? I'd be falling into the continuing education trap, but maybe I should only worry about myself.

 

[Hugo Drax]

Simple way to fix this issue.

#1 Get rid of the government backstop
#2 allow college loans to be treated like any other unsecured loan.

The markets will then price risk into the loans and you will see the net college price drops once all this excess money chasing college degrees is drained out.

 

[Slew Foot]

So the only degrees that aren't useless in your guy's eyes are fields related to engineering or medical right?

Medical degrees are getting more worhtless year by year. Take out 300K in loans and end up with a 120K FP/peds/GP job

 

[edro]

Going into college now isn't worth it. There are more degrees than jobs that require said degree. Its that simple.

lol

And what do you recommend? Applying for professional jobs with a high school degree and YouTube education?
Not getting a professional job?

Degrees are REQUIRED for most professional jobs now, even if the competition is much higher, they are still required.

 

[OverVolt]

The point is not to just take a degree thinking it will make you better, but to take a degree knowing you're good at something and it will make you viable to use your abilities.

I have a degree and I had a job a full two semesters before I graduated. Other people in the same boat had no job coming out of school. The difference? I went into school knowing what I like to do, and what kind of job I would be good at. The school merely taught me extra skills and provided me with the network and background to get that job. Other people in my degree got the degree because they had nothing else planned. They just wanted to do something.

The employers can see whether or not you're truly interested in something. Getting a degree only shows you took the necessarily steps to get you in that door.

Says Gen X. Your advice is old.

 

[OverVolt]

lol

And what do you recommend? Applying for professional jobs with a high school degree and YouTube education?
Not getting a professional job?

Degrees are REQUIRED for most professional jobs now, even if the competition is much higher, they are still required.

Professional jobs don't bring in the income to pay for the debt you need for the credentials now. Lawyers are long gone. Pharmacy is probably headed this route in a few years. MBA? forget about it.

Why would you want a professional job if, after taxes and student loans you have LESS money than a freaking plumber or something. Something is wrong with the economy, duh. Trying to blame the person is very passe. In engineering you would tell someone to just work twice as hard, do a ton of internships, etc. Then turn the other way and say the person who went into law is a dumbass even if they had to work harder.

Always blaming the person instead of realizing college was never meant to be for career placement anyway, just education. If someone wants an English degree then that is fine. Its all the other people there deluded into thinking they are getting said professional job, as if it will pay off no matter how much debt they need to get there, and significantly raising the tuition cost as people bid against each other with the banks money.

Well its long past the point where the debt isn't worth it anymore. Then random guys who got their degree in the 90's or early 00's come in here and espouse how it WAS worth it. And it was, back then.

Would be icing on the cake if a guy from the 70's came in and told us how great college was for him after he graduated and declared bankruptcy and got to keep the degree, back when that was possible. Times change guys. Sorry but your advice is shit.

 

[IAteYourMother]

We need more trained workers, not necessarily more college. Plumbers/electricians/etc do pretty well.

 

[Mixolydian]

I chose not to go to college and I still have no plans to. Learning a trade seems like a better fit for me. If I were to go to college, I would have no idea what I would want to study.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Graduates of occupational/technical associate’s degree programs, with an average salary of just under $40,000, out-earned not only nonoccupational associate’s degree graduates – by about $6,000 – but also bachelor’s degree graduates by almost $2,500 statewide.
Uno

That right there is the key point. All the parents, school teachers, guidance counselors and, friends who tell you, "of course you have to go to college" are dead wrong. Not only do folks working in the trades make better money than most college graduates, they don't have to do it in a cubicle. In addition, there's nothing keeping you from going to college later in life. I swear, 'youts' act like they're failing life if they're not on track to retire at 40.

 

[Exterous]

Times change guys. Sorry but your advice is shit.

Is it? recent studies disagree with you:

http://www9.georgetown.edu/grad/gppi/hpi/cew/pdfs/CollegeAdvantage.FullReport.081512.pdf

Short summary:
4 year degree holding jobs gained since recession: 2M
Non college degrees lost since recession 5.6M

7.6M jobs is a slight difference in opportunity.

Job growth is faster for people with degrees

Why would you want a professional job if, after taxes and student loans you have LESS money than a freaking plumber or something.

Do you have some sort of factual basis for this claim or something? Studies still show earning potentials of 2x non-college degree holders and, as of August 2012, still amounts to almost $1M extra over the course of your career. I don't know anyone with $1M in student loan debt so the economics still GENERALLY works out in favor of the degree in the end. Your choices will certainly make a difference but to say, unequivocally, that you will earn less is untrue

-This is not to say that a Masters in Sculpting will be better than becoming a master electrician but only speaking in generalities

 

[Engineer]

Hopefully the school loan bubble bursts sooner rather than later. I'm now seeing many job ads stating "Master's degree preferred" when there is no way that a Master's degree really adds anything for those particular positions. It is just crazy.

Sure it does. It lowers the starting salary for those well qualified candidates with bachelors degrees.

 

[child of wonder]

Some of my friends and former co-workers are determined to get Master's degrees in various fields of IT and I can't fathom why. I got a 2 year degree from a tech school, cost me $10,000, and I'm doing great.

Education gets you in the door. What you do with it afterwards is what matters.

 

[Exterous]

"Of the most popular courses of study, recipients of four-year nursing degrees earned the most in average first-year of wages – $48,959. Those with biology degrees earned the least, at $27,893. Those with two-year nursing degrees averaged $45,342.

Graduates of occupational/technical associate’s degree programs, with an average salary of just under $40,000, out-earned not only nonoccupational associate’s degree graduates – by about $6,000 – but also bachelor’s degree graduates by almost $2,500 statewide.

At the bachelor’s degree level, the highest-earning graduates came from two career-oriented programs at the University of Richmond, where those who majored in information sciences and in human resources management averaged more than $69,000 per year. Meanwhile, graduates from six*teen programs across Virginia – most of them liberal arts programs, such as philosophy or fine arts – earned on average less than $24,000."

Are you aware of any studies showing more than just 1st year salaries? I would think only 1st year salaries would add significant bias towards trades. Georgetown shows 'Recent Grads' earn ~60% as much as 'Experienced Grads'.

Edit - they also didn't mention if they were only including those who found full time jobs in their field or not - at least that i saw

Further edit: From a google search taking electricians it looks like the average starting salary is in the $45,000 range. This is above most of the 'recent graduate' salaries in the georgetown salary report here:
http://www9.georgetown.edu/grad/gppi/hpi/cew/pdfs/Unemployment.Final.update1.pdf

However - an 'experienced' electrician is around $56,000 which falls slightly below the median salary for 'experienced' college graduates. This would seem to support that taking 1st year salaries as a comparison will show a bias towards trades

 

[OverVolt]

Is it? recent studies disagree with you:

http://www9.georgetown.edu/grad/gppi/hpi/cew/pdfs/CollegeAdvantage.FullReport.081512.pdf

Short summary:
4 year degree holding jobs gained since recession: 2M
Non college degrees lost since recession 5.6M

7.6M jobs is a slight difference in opportunity.

Job growth is faster for people with degrees



Do you have some sort of factual basis for this claim or something? Studies still show earning potentials of 2x non-college degree holders and, as of August 2012, still amounts to almost $1M extra over the course of your career. I don't know anyone with $1M in student loan debt so the economics still GENERALLY works out in favor of the degree in the end

-This is not to say that a Masters in Sculpting will be better than becoming a master electrician but only speaking in generalities

The 70's grads, the 80's grads, the 90's grads, etc. It all worked out for them, thats fine, it was a good decision at the time. All because it worked in the past doesn't mean it works now. Now its a bad decision.

Loans are not play money. These lawyers who owe 150k and only make 45k. That shit is real. Those people are in trouble. Those loans are not discharged in bankruptcy. If you go 120 days delinquent a ~30%+ fee is charged on the principle. They are in trouble for the next 12 years. What a huge mistake.

I know people who got behind on $130k and now owe over $200k on a 50k salary. Shit is real dude.

They can still post good income numbers... and then you take out the loan payments. Oh they have a $20k/yr budget. Thats the poverty line. Maybe they should just try harder. Or magically go from unemployed Gen Y to a demographic with better employment like the baby boomers. :/

Gen Y has both the worst employment rate and the highest debt loads, and typically a lower salary to boot.

 

[Axon]

The 70's grads, the 80's grads, the 90's grads, etc. It all worked out for them, thats fine, it was a good decision at the time. All because it worked in the past doesn't mean it works now. Now its a bad decision.

Loans are not play money. These lawyers who owe 150k and only make 45k. That shit is real. Those people are in trouble. Those loans are not discharged in bankruptcy. If you go 120 days delinquent a ~30%+ fee is charged in the principle. They are in trouble for the next 12 years. What a huge mistake.

I know people who got behind on $130k and now owe over $200k on a 50k salary. Shit is real dude.

They can still post good income numbers... and then you take out the loan payments. Oh they have a $20k/yr budget. Thats the poverty line. Maybe they should just try harder. Or magically go from unemployed Gen Y to a demographic with better employment like the baby boomers. :/

Gen Y has both the worst employment rate and the highest debt loads, and typically a lower salary to boot.

100% truth. I'm a 2007 J.D., just turned 33 years old. And thank god, I'm somewhat successful in the legal field and earning over 100k a year, plus pieces of the attorney's fees from my settlements, usually around 15k before and 8kish after taxes. I'm now under $90k for total loans, but it's still $800 a month. Brutal. Makes it hard to pay rent sometimes.

But I'm the success story. My law clerk? 2012 J.D., 28, 45k, owes.... i think $240k? She's f**ked. The only way she's paying that is if I open my own firm and together we settle a big case.

Of course, I still get taxed massively for medicare and less massively for SSI, which I've been told I WILL NOT get. Nor can I deduct my student loan interest (4.5k a year), because my base salary is too high.

It's enough to make a dude wanna burn s**t down....

 

[OverVolt]

Sorry to be so vehement. There are alot of different expectations and opinions on it. It worked for alot of people and thats okay. I'm probably most angry at going to college without really thinking about it. My friends who went into trades did WAY better. If it was my own decision and not hearing 1,000 times over that I needed to go to college I really wouldn't have gone. I would have looked at the price and just laughed.