Snowden says he was a spy, not just an analyst - Interview 10 pm tonight NBC

[michal1980]

Snowden is a traitor, if he really felt is was justified, he would face the justice system and trust in it. He needs to return and spend some time in prison.

LOL you'd trust Obama? He drone kills Americans with no trail.

 

[Zorba]

Agree with you on our elected officials, but it still does not change the fact that he is a traitor.

This country was founded by traitors, that took up arms against their government. So are you against them too? Long Live the Queen!

 

[bradly1101]

This country was founded by traitors, that took up arms against their government. So are you against them too? Long Live the Queen!

It's in our blood to call out unfairness and when people are wronged (well except I guess for the wrong-doers).

 

[Zorba]

Congratulations, #4.

Anyways, it has been fun to the four of you who are blatantly wrong, but I tire of wasting my time arguing with those idolizing traitors.

Washington D.C. and Washington State are both named after one of the largest traitors in US history. He lead an army in an armed revolt against his government.

Snowden released some power point slides.

 

[Oldgamer]

]Or maybe our government is reaching that corruption threshold where the only way to do anything right is to be a "traitor" [/B]in the technical sense. Would suck, but this could be the beginning of such a stage.

If Snowden has betrayed the United States, he has a funny way of showing it.

The only damage I see is that caused by the secret programs that he's revealed, and that would have been revealed somehow sooner or later; probably under even less favorable circumstances. Snowden alerted us and the world to the cancer in the early stages, hardly the actions of a traitor.

After watching the interview tonight I am even more convinced he is not a traitor. He spoke very intelligently and explained quite a bit. I can now see why our Government is so afraid of him.

 

[Oldgamer]

Was the information classified or not? The question is a "yes" or "no" question.

No because the information showed illegal activity by our own government.

 

[irishScott]

It's in our blood to call out unfairness and when people are wronged (well except I guess for the wrong-doers).

That's the thing, a lot of people think it's the government that's been wronged, and it comes down to basic worldview from what I've seen.

My dad is very much in the "Snowden should be shot" camp, and he and I have had extensive debates about it. What the most extensive one boiled down to was a basic worldview, and it was just blurted out (not an intellectual argument).

My dad just blurted out "the Republic is eternal" (the debate had turned philosophical at this point). He backpedaled when I responded and admitted it was just an outburst, but it shows the fundamental difference. He sees the US as eternal; and such a trait implies the ability to be eternal which implies a lot of good stuff. Te betray an "eternal" nation is to betray something really really good, hence his reaction to Snowden. By contrast I've always believed (and been taught in school) that America is only around because of activists who effectively challenged the system, not always legally; and that we only persist because of people like Snowden who, however flawed, drive back corruption.

Despite their oaths, Snowden has done more to uphold and defend the Constitution than Obama and General Alexander combined. He's no saint, but if he's a "true narcissist" then we're lucky he was narcissistic enough to do what he did.

I wonder if those who want Snowden dead are just suffering from a Cold War mentality. That Americans must overlook flaws in the system in the name of maintaining the system to "win the war". Problem is that war no longer exists, but the government is acting as if it does. They're trying to make terrorism the new communism, but it doesn't fill the old shoes by a long shot.

 

[mrjminer]

But how would you know that? In that scenario the information substantiating the need for classification is classified. See where I'm going with this?

Too much classification doesn't protect the Republic, it turns it into an Oligarchy where "need to know" is more about power than actual need to know; and that's what we have with the NSA.

And yeah he probably revealed other information as part of a bargain to keep himself free but that was a necessity, not an objective; and the US is still standing as strong as it ever was last I checked. The positive effects of Snowden's actions far outweigh the negative IMO. Or at least I'm allowed to see the positive effects. If the DNI would see fit to declassify even some vague half-specifics on what exactly his actions have damaged, or what good the NSA program's have done, then I might change my tune presuming they were even half-verifiable. They have not done so. For preventing 50 some-odd attacks over the last few years, you'd think they could release details on at least 1.

Sweet, so you see the positive effects of something you didn't know existed no longer existing. I guess such positive effects would be along the lines of relinquishing our control over the internet prematurely (to be fair, this probably would have happened at some point anyways, but that's definitely power we don't want to have as a nation as long as possible!), straining relations with our allies (which is always a plus!), reducing our ability to gather intelligence on foreign assets (this one has a huge thumbs up, too!), and permitting those being monitored to find means to communicate which aren't monitored (definitely can't argue with you there, either!).

We don't even need to delve into the realm of possibility with covert allegiances being formed or strengthened against us, because anything coming out of that is surely a positive, too.

All hail Edward Snowden! Liberator of the free world! Heroic knight against the US government securing their interests against foreign assets!

You post falls apart because so far as I've seen no one is claiming that Snowden had the legal authority to declassify and release. We are instead arguing that the information could not be classified as a 4th amendment violation.

It's funny how Ellsberg is a hero and Snowden a traitor just based on who is in the White House.

ETA: the Pentagon Papers were classified as national security relevant as well.

I've stated this a few times, but the point is indefensible. Even if you say it doesn't matter, it does matter that he had no authority to take it upon himself to release the information. Either way, the information he released is covered by national security -- unless you categorize our espionage of foreign nations on the same level as putt-putt golf.

As for Ellsberg, even though that was outside of my lifetime, a quick look at Wikipedia makes it obvious; illegal evidence gathering and lost evidence got him acquitted because the case became irreparably tainted, to summarize my perusal. Aside from that, there is the question of whether or not the information should have been classified, by today's standards (I am not looking up previous judgments of what constitutes classified throughout history for this) -- but he still would not have had the authority to make the decision himself, regardless. We will never know, and the subject is entirely irrelevant to Snowden because there is no question that espionage of other nations is entirely a national security issue.

Aside from the Nixon comedy and his involvement derived from your silly "based on who is in the White House" ridiculousness, it matters not who is in the White House. Only a dickhead would support a traitor based on a political party, or give merit to one at all.

 

[feralkid]

LOL you'd trust Obama? He drone kills Americans with no trail.

Your constant droning kills a lot of us.

 

[irishScott]

Sweet, so you see the positive effects of something you didn't know existed no longer existing. I guess such positive effects would be along the lines of relinquishing our control over the internet prematurely (to be fair, this probably would have happened at some point anyways, but that's definitely power we don't want to have as a nation as long as possible!), straining relations with our allies (which is always a plus!), reducing our ability to gather intelligence on foreign assets (this one has a huge thumbs up, too!), and permitting those being monitored to find means to communicate which aren't monitored (definitely can't argue with you there, either!).

We don't even need to delve into the realm of possibility with covert allegiances being formed or strengthened against us, because anything coming out of that is surely a positive, too.

All hail Edward Snowden! Liberator of the free world! Heroic knight against the US government securing their interests against foreign assets!

I can see the negative effects if it had been allowed to continue to grow, and I see no positive effects of allowing it to stick around. If you detect cancer before there any symptoms, that doesn't make it benign. If, not when the next J. Edgar Hoover got control of the NSA it would be a nightmare. It would be a turnkey secret police, and wholly un-American (granted it's wholly unAmerican in the first place, violating the 4th Amendment and all). Keep in mind the NSA has already been caught lying to its own secret oversight court, sometimes getting away with things for months before they were discovered. They also lied to Congress and the Senate, as many Congressmen and Senators have attested to. In many ways they acted like a rogue agency, and in American intelligence abuse tradition (going back 65 years or so) they only follow their own directives when they get caught red-handed. This is not the first American intelligence abuse. The FBI, CIA, Army Intelligence, and NSA have been "fire-fighted" for decades, which in turn has given us the intelligence abuse protections we currently enjoy. The NSA got around said protections by applying a 1979 communications legal precedent (Smith v Maryland) to the internet, along with section 215 of the Patriot Act. It's a legal loophole that the Patriot Act's own authors say they didn't mean to create.



The US is under no real international threat. Nor is our control over the internet for that matter. We're not a nation that relies on our spook networks to survive. I'd gladly sacrifice foreign intelligence gathering capabilities to complete the ultimate mission of those capabilities, that is supporting and defending the Constitution.

Edit: Smith v Maryland, not Gates.

 

[irishScott]

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...ays-nsa-watches-our-digital-thoughts-develop/

Also, there's this:

"I have no relationship with the Russian government. I have taken no money from the Russian government... The best way to avoid doing that is by destroying the information I had before coming to Russia. I took no documents to Russia, so I could give them nothing."

That actually makes sense, and given that Russia's foreign policy ambitions it would make sense that Putin would want to snub the US, and keeping Snowden around is a pretty inexpensive way to do that. If true it doesn't speak well for the stability of of his position, but it's plausible.

 

[DCal430]

That snowden will spend the rest of his life in prison if he returns in just speculation, as far as we know he could get 5 years, or 0 years.

 

[irishScott]

That snowden will spend the rest of his life in prison if he returns in just speculation, as far as we know he could get 5 years, or 0 years.

Yeah, zero years in the sense that he'd suffer a very convenient heart attack the week before the trial or be declared an "enemy combatant" and suddenly lose his right to an attorney; and get sentenced to death for treason by a favorable judge being steered into position.

Why on Earth would you trust your fate to the very administration that you're exposing for Constitutional violations?

 

[mrjminer]

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...ays-nsa-watches-our-digital-thoughts-develop/

Also, there's this:


That actually makes sense, and given that Russia's foreign policy ambitions it would make sense that Putin would want to snub the US, and keeping Snowden around is a pretty inexpensive way to do that. If true it doesn't speak well for the stability of of his position, but it's plausible.

Still irrelevant. Stop revering a traitor, it's retarded. The only thing you've done you've done is make presumptions about his good intentions, act as though his intentions matter at all, or act as though his word means shit about not taking anything from any government -- or that it would even matter if he hasn't. Nothing you have said is in any way relevant to what he did, as I have tried to get through that dumbass skull of yours. He divulged classified information regarding our espionage operations -- that is all that matters.

Nothing that I say is going to make a difference to you, which is definitely obvious at this point. So I'm not going to waste my time with you further on the matter. Just know that you'll be a dumbass in my mind until you realize how stupid your position is.

 

[DCal430]

Yeah, zero years in the sense that he'd suffer a very convenient heart attack the week before the trial or be declared an "enemy combatant" and suddenly lose his right to an attorney; and get sentenced to death for treason by a favorable judge being steered into position.

Why on Earth would you trust your fate to the very administration that you're exposing for Constitutional violations?

The government has already promised it won't execute snowden.

 

[irishScott]

Still irrelevant. Stop revering a traitor, it's retarded. The only thing you've done you've done is make presumptions about his good intentions, act as though his intentions matter at all, or act as though his word means shit about not taking anything from any government -- or that it would even matter if he hasn't. Nothing you have said is in any way relevant to what he did, as I have tried to get through that dumbass skull of yours. He divulged classified information regarding our espionage operations -- that is all that matters.

Nothing that I say is going to make a difference to you, which is definitely obvious at this point. So I'm not going to waste my time with you further on the matter. Just know that you'll be a dumbass in my mind until you realize how stupid your position is.

You must be long-time military, probably not an officer either. Seems like you draw comfort from doing as you're told to the point where you equate it with doing what's right. Your opinion of me is no more significant than the opinion of a dog who's been trained to bark when I walk by. The dog holds me no malice of his own, only those of his trainers.

It's also interesting you chose this post to respond to, instead of the one where I countered your arguments. You couldn't counter my arguments, so you fell back on your training. You cherry-pick reality, even reality that hurts others, to suit yourself. Your accomplishments, whatever they are, will not last for long.

 

[irishScott]

The government has already promised it won't execute snowden.

They also promised under oath that they weren't spying on millions of Americans. And that was to people with security clearance.

 

[mrjminer]

You must be long-time military, probably not an officer either. Seems like you draw comfort from doing as you're told to the point where you equate it with doing what's right. Your opinion of me is no more significant than the opinion of a dog who's been trained to bark when I walk by. The dog holds me no malice of his own, only those of his trainers.

It's also interesting you chose this post to respond to, instead of the one where I countered your arguments. You couldn't counter my arguments, so you fell back on your training. You cherry-pick reality, even reality that hurts others, to suit yourself. Your accomplishments, whatever they are, will not last for long.

They also promised under oath that they weren't spying on millions of Americans. And that was to people with security clearance.

On second thought, I'm just going to put you on ignore, with the few other fucking lunatics I have on there.

 

[DCal430]

We in the public do not have all of the facts that government does, we don't know why they felt they needed these programs, and we don't know the lives saved from these programs like they do.

 

[irishScott]

On second thought, I'm just going to put you on ignore, with the few other fucking lunatics I have on there.

Still waiting for you to actually counter one of my arguments, but that works. You get to keep your tunnel vision and your simple, secure little world, and I get to keep shooting down your arguments unopposed, which others will read and assume you conceded. Works out for everybody. :thumbsup:

 

[cubby1223]

We enjoy far more freedoms than the average Russian, far more. If you think anything different you are a fucking fool, period. Ask Pussy Riot, or any one of the Russian enemies that have had a Polonium milkshake. Show me a single person who has been able to amass a fortune of 70bn+ (some estimates over $100bn) in the US that has worked in the government the entire time? Show me a single person in the US that has been thrown in prison for "tax evasion" when they started to disagree with the President, or Congress. Show me a single person who sold off enormous companies for pennies on the dollar to amass not only a personal, but a buddies fortune, in the US.

The Russian government is the single largest (outside of China) kleptocracy in the history of mankind. They are raping that country and the FSB/SVR are *FAR* more invasive and powerful than the CIA/NSA.

Two completely separate issues.

Someone is capable of believing the U.S. is better than Russia, while at the same time not liking some of the things the U.S. is doing.

 

[Daverino]

First and foremost, the guy is a traitor.

Secondly, he's a self-aggrandizing asshole.

qft

 

[bradly1101]

Was the information he released classified or not?

That is the only question that you need to answer. A simple yes or no will suffice.

I think the real question is, are you glad you know what you know now since his revelations, or do you wish you were still in the dark? And was the government's decision to be more transparent in reaction to the leaks a bad one?

 

[OBLAMA2009]

he answered the questions pretty well, id give his performance 8/10. the guy is obviously not a traitor and he obviously is not a russian/chinese/etc... spy. he disclosed crimes of american government officials just like bradley manning and only a retard would say otherwise. if i were president id give him a full pardon and let him come back here. kerry is a clown that chased down a naked unarmed vietnamese kid and blew him away at point blank range in order to get a silver star, he is a really awful guy

the government has really misused the terrorism threat to trick dummies into accepting this new police state. they had some guy on the news that said americans are 35,000 times more likely to die of heart disease than be killed by a terrorist but theres no "war on heart disease". you know whats more practical and cheaper than starting wars to fight "terrorists"? telling the u.s. gov to quit doing schitt that makes people do stuff like that

 

[cubby1223]

On second thought, I'm just going to put you on ignore, with the few other fucking lunatics I have on there.

Powerful threat! Sure sign you're winning the argument!

The only difference between the thread conversation as it stands, versus you having put everyone on ignore, is you don't have any comments in this thread. Everyone else discusses as they currently are.

All you have contributed to the discussion is your stance that classified information should never be leaked. And when confronted with questions to expand on those thoughts, on your reasonings, you clam up and threaten to ignore everyone.