Phoenix, I do agree with you in bits and parts,.
But if that is totally true, the Optional insurance tab offered by ebay is useless?
Wrong. By bidding on an auction, you agree to the terms of the auction. If the seller said they are not responsible for the package arriving if you don't purchase insurance, then they're not responsible.
Insurance should always be the buyer's responsibility on eBay. You offered insurance. He didn't want it. He's screwed...especially since you have proof that something was sent to him.
Unless stated otherwise, the buyer pays for the item to be delivered to them in a satisfactory condition. It is, therefore, the *seller's* responsibility to deliver the item to the buyer in that satisfactory condition.
If the item is lost or damaged in the post, it is up the seller to put it right.
Shipping insurance protects the seller, not the buyer. The seller is obligated to protect the investment of the buyer anyway. The purpose of the insurance is to reimburse the seller for the costs to him if the item is lost.
If you are a seller, it is very unwise to make insurance optional. If you can't get a good deal from your shipping provider, then you may be better off self-insuring. This is what I did when I used to sell little electronic gadgets. I'd tack a bit onto the shipping cost, and put it aside. On the occasion when an item got lost, I'd simply send another at my expense - paid for by the surcharge.
I suppose that if you had stated very clearly in the auction that the buyer is to arrange shipping, and that the buyer assumes full responsibility for the item at the time it is paid for - then you could argue that a lost item is the buyer's problem. However, this is certainly not the normal state of affairs.
If the item is lost or damaged in the post, it is up the seller to put it right.
Shipping insurance protects the seller, not the buyer. The seller is obligated to protect the investment of the buyer anyway. The purpose of the insurance is to reimburse the seller for the costs to him if the item is lost.
If you are a seller, it is very unwise to make insurance optional. If you can't get a good deal from your shipping provider, then you may be better off self-insuring. This is what I did when I used to sell little electronic gadgets. I'd tack a bit onto the shipping cost, and put it aside. On the occasion when an item got lost, I'd simply send another at my expense - paid for by the surcharge.
I suppose that if you had stated very clearly in the auction that the buyer is to arrange shipping, and that the buyer assumes full responsibility for the item at the time it is paid for - then you could argue that a lost item is the buyer's problem. However, this is certainly not the normal state of affairs.
pontifex
Lifer
- Dec 5, 2000
- 43,804
- 46
- 91
you don't see a difference between a huge company with huge inventory and multiples of the same item and a 1st time selller who is selling their personal item online (which they only have 1 of)?
so if you were selling, say a new video card that cost $300 and you shipped it and they guy didn't want insurance, you would go out and buy another $300 video and just send it to the guy? that means you lost the item you were trying to sell and the money you made off of it by selling it.
Phoenix86
Lifer
- May 21, 2003
- 14,644
- 10
- 81
Perhaps... I'm not 100% familiar with e-bay's rules, so I won't comment on those. From a general buyer-seller transaction, the seller is responsible for shipping.
Part of the terms of the auction is that the buyer receives the item in the auction, no? Did they? Nope.
There IS no difference. Volume doesn't change responsibility or liability. You don't become liable for shipping when sales = X volume. The idea is ridiculous.
Fact is, I always insure things I ship unless I don't care if they get lost. I wouldn't be in this mess because it would have been insured.
Folks imagine if you will someone who WANTS to scam people on e-bay. You really don't want the buyer being responsible for shipping.
Fvck, what if it was improperly packaged, is that also the buyers fault? Sheesh people.
Exactly. I'm not Amazon.
The buyer made a CONSCIOUS DECISION to pass on the insurance to reduce his bottom line. His decision = his loss.
Period.
If the seller didn't offer insurance, it would be an entirely different ballgame, but that's not the case here.
Drakkon
Diamond Member
- Aug 14, 2001
- 8,401
- 1
- 0
you are liable for getting the package there insurance or not. Its your fault if the carrier losses the package as YOU chose that company to get the item to the seller.
If he files a paypal claim the funds will be deducted from your account as if you had no tracking info paypal will not be your friend.
If he files a paypal claim the funds will be deducted from your account as if you had no tracking info paypal will not be your friend.
yes, if the buyer makes a claim against you, you are screwed...if you do not have a tracking number, ebay/paypal will always side with buyer
Do you have any way to prove the package was lost and that you didn't just decide to not ship it out of the blue? Paypal/ebay's recourse for things of this nature is to ask for proof that you shipped the item, without it the buyer will get his money back. This is the reason I always pay the extra $1 to get a signature confirmation on my packages.
ZoomStop
Senior member
- Oct 10, 2005
- 841
- 0
- 76
I agree with what the line of thought that you should require insurance.
But I also know that a very small percentage of mail is actually lost and that a great majority of the time it is some a-hole who got the item and then decided to say they never got it.
So for a start I would offer to refund 1/2 or 1/3 of the money and make it sound like it is all you can do. If they are truly trying to rip you off they'll jump on this. If they truly did not get the phone though then they will press for a full refund and in that case give it to them.
But the odds are great this guy is enjoying his new phone and is just trying to see if he can get his money back too.
But I also know that a very small percentage of mail is actually lost and that a great majority of the time it is some a-hole who got the item and then decided to say they never got it.
So for a start I would offer to refund 1/2 or 1/3 of the money and make it sound like it is all you can do. If they are truly trying to rip you off they'll jump on this. If they truly did not get the phone though then they will press for a full refund and in that case give it to them.
But the odds are great this guy is enjoying his new phone and is just trying to see if he can get his money back too.
insurance by sellers is bullcrap. they should be obligated to get the package to the seller, which means insurance should already be included in shipping, handling, and charged. offering 'optional' insurance i've always thought is a scam.
Your title is wrong: Seller has paid? Should be 'buyer' has paid and 'buyer' not opt for insurance.
Here's my final opinion:
You should ship with insurance anyway.
If a buyer purchases insurance with the deal, and it gets lost, the buyer gets an immediate refund and you dispute the claim with whatever carrier.
If a buyer DOES NOT purchase insurance when it is offered and it gets lost, the buyer gets a refund only after the claim with whatever carrier is settled.
If they were too cheap to purchase insurance, why should you tie up your money and item while it's getting settled?
You should ship with insurance anyway.
If a buyer purchases insurance with the deal, and it gets lost, the buyer gets an immediate refund and you dispute the claim with whatever carrier.
If a buyer DOES NOT purchase insurance when it is offered and it gets lost, the buyer gets a refund only after the claim with whatever carrier is settled.
If they were too cheap to purchase insurance, why should you tie up your money and item while it's getting settled?
Kelemvor
Lifer
- May 23, 2002
- 16,928
- 8
- 81
Actually I think your statement is backwards....
I've always been told it's the buyer's responsibility to fight with the insurance because the package was heading to them. Once you ship it, you give the buyer the tracking Info and you're done. If it doens't get there, he takes that info to the shipping co to get the insurance info paid back.
Buyer pays and gets insurance, Shipper Ships withInsurance, Shipper gives tracking info to buyer, buyer's responsibility for anything else that happens.
It was a compromise between the people saying the buyer is 100% responsible and the seller is 100% responsible.
ZoomStop
Senior member
- Oct 10, 2005
- 841
- 0
- 76
Insurance claims are the responsibility of the person who paid for the shipping/insurance.
The buyer may have paid you, but the seller pays the carrier.
Works the same way with freight. If I ship out a truck of product to ABC Inc freight prepaid (it gets charged to my corporate account with the carrier) and there is loss/breakage on the load then it is up to my company to take it up with the carrier.
Now if I ship it freight collect and the shipping charges are either paid upon delivery by the customer or get billed to the customers account and there is loss/breakage then it is up to the customer to negotiate insurance (which, trust me, pisses them off to no end).
There is always the ability to stipulate a FOB point, but that gets a bit more complicated. Parcel shipments work the same way in regards to insurance though. Unless the winning bidder supplied a UPS/FedEx account number to bill shipping charges to, it is up to the seller to file insurance paperwork.
The buyer may have paid you, but the seller pays the carrier.
Works the same way with freight. If I ship out a truck of product to ABC Inc freight prepaid (it gets charged to my corporate account with the carrier) and there is loss/breakage on the load then it is up to my company to take it up with the carrier.
Now if I ship it freight collect and the shipping charges are either paid upon delivery by the customer or get billed to the customers account and there is loss/breakage then it is up to the customer to negotiate insurance (which, trust me, pisses them off to no end).
There is always the ability to stipulate a FOB point, but that gets a bit more complicated. Parcel shipments work the same way in regards to insurance though. Unless the winning bidder supplied a UPS/FedEx account number to bill shipping charges to, it is up to the seller to file insurance paperwork.
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