Slashdot topic on programming being a "dead end job"

[satori]

Every couple months, we'll see a thread about "foreigners" stealing our IT jobs and how it's gonna be impossible to find a Tech job after you reach a certain age. I've always been one of the nay sayers, disagreeing with the comments that it's impossible to find a job if you're in programming. But, this thread on slashdot has really made me confused... Exactly how bad is it?

slashdot thread

I really have >no< idea what to think, since I've seen stuff that provides ammunition for both sides.

case #1 - Yes, there's a problem now.

1. One of my roommie's coworkers was laid off last year, and hasn't been able to find a job. We had to drive him home from our place one night, because he was depressed, drunk and in no condition to drive. The guy was doing sysadmin stuff at "famous-company-that-recently-got-a-big-government-contract" here in Silicon Valley.

2. Another one of my friend's was laid off from another well known company in SV last year and also hasn't been able to find a job. I believe he was doing some sort of Java stuff.

3. Another friend in Seattle lost his job and had to recently apply for an extension on his unemployment benefits. He sent me his resume and it looks like he was doing a mix of Q/A and Java.

case #2 - No, there isn't a problem

1. Walking by our company lunch room, I noticed a couple job opening posts that were filled. One was looking for an ASIC (chip) designer with 5 years of experience. Base salary of 100K. Another was looking for an embedded engineer with at least a year of experience. Salary was around 80k. Note that the place I work at goes by the "Bonus" system, so the salaries are generally lower and you get bonuses depending on how the company does. These can go up to 50% your salary, so respond accordingly.

2. Our company had a lay-off late last year. My group lost 2 people, and I know one guy found another job within a month. About 2 weeks after the layoffs, another guy opted to leave our group to join a startup.

3. There are maybe 3-4 tech guys in our entire location (150+ people) that are under 30. The others are mostly in their 40s. Our most recent hiree must be in his mid-40's.

4. Some of the positions at our work >are< being filled with foreigners... But, I really doubt a salary around 100K can be considered "undercutting" the competition. Another one of my roomies is a manager at "Totally-well-known-CPU-manufacturer-in-Silicon-Valley", so I've got an idea of what engineers make and 100K isn't out of the line.

So, what exactly is the current situation. After reading the slashdot.org thread, I'm at a quandary of what to think. It's kinda scary, because I'm currently doing "embedded programming", which the author specifically cites. Maybe I've had it all wrong the past couple months, and I really should go to law school, or get an MBA.

 

[SuperTool]

Well, I work at a "Totally-well-known-CPU-manufacturer-in-Silicon-Valley",
They are still hiring at some positions, but they are picky. I got my job 1.5 years ago, and I only had a BS. I think that would be tough to pull off in this climate, because companies are looking for people with specific skills. Before they were just looking for someone qualified to fill a position. Now they want someone who has lots of specific experience. If I graduated today, I probably would end up going to grad school. I am the only guy without MEng in my group, as far as I know. I might go get one later, but right now I got a sweet job that I want to hold on too. They do hire tonnes of H1B workers (over half in my area), mostly because US schools don't provide nearly sufficient numbers to fill highly technical fields. But salaries are holding up OK if you are qualified. Also, if you do something that alot of people know how to do or that is easy to learn, it will be tougher to get a job. I think any sort of programming is in danger from overseas, because people over there are willing to work 14 hours a day to keep a job.
Good luck job hunting.

 

[gopunk]

ms is still hiring interns, but they have gotten a lot pickier. i think that is generally the state... a degree is no longer sufficient to get a job, you have to actually be good at what you do. if you excel, i don't think you have anything to worry about. there will be exceptions, of course.

 

[joohang]

<< a degree is no longer sufficient to get a job, you have to actually be good at what you do. if you excel, i don't think you have anything to worry about. >>


Well that makes a lot of sense to me. Should've been this way loooooong ago.

 

[satori]

SuperTool: That's what I totally thought, but the slashdot thread made me a little worried. I just talked to my "manager-at-big-CPU-company" roomie and he said the same thing. Sucks that I have to keep using funny descriptions like that, but better safe than sorry. They're still hiring, but they're being more picky about new hirees.

Anyways, it seems like the thinking you guys have as basically along the same vein as what I was thinking... if you're good, things are fine. If you aren't, be prepared.

BTW, I'm not out of work. Although I'm thinking about taking a break for a year or so to re-energize.

 

[SuperTool]

<< Although I'm thinking about taking a break for a year or so to re-energize. >>


Aren't we all. That's why I am saving Grad school for later

 

[worth]

I bet the Totally-well-known-CPU-manufacturer-in-Silicon-Valley is AMD

 

[satori]

I actually thought about going to law school for the h@ll of it. 2 of my friends recently took the bar, and looking at their studying habits, it looks like an easy route to take... There's always a market for patent lawyers that understand the underlying technology behind the patents.

 

[SuperTool]

<< I bet the Totally-well-known-CPU-manufacturer-in-Silicon-Valley is AMD >>


Because there are just so many "Totally-well-known-CPU-manufacturer-in-Silicon-Valley" I am not going to get into this game

 

[joohang]

<< I bet the Totally-well-known-CPU-manufacturer-in-Silicon-Valley is AMD >>


Hmm.. I thought it was VIA.

 

[satori]

Joohang: Does Via make chips? Are they the guys that recently bought out Cyrix? Anyways, I totally thought that Via only made the northbridge/southbridges on motherboards?

 

[joohang]

<< Joohang: Does Via make chips? Are they the guys that recently bought out Cyrix? Anyways, I totally thought that Via only made the northbridge/southbridges on motherboards? >>


I was actually joking around.

But yes. VIA does make CPUs. Anand did some reviews also. Yes, they bought Cyrix. The chip is called "VIA Cyrix". They changed their core design a couple of times already and are pretty well-known around here because they run very cool (temperature-wise), although their performance isn't great.

 

[manly]

satori,

Well you know reality always falls in between the two extreme positions. I would never think of software development as a dead end job; heck one should be downright giddy not flipping burgers to scrape out a meager living.

You do realize though that the SF Bay Area is ground zero for the Dot Com/Tech meltdown, right? Unemployment in those areas was previously sub 2% and now it's significantly higher. Since a lot of geeks made decent money in the boom period and a good number aren't hurting enough to look for work in a bad market (I should know), they aren't counted among the current unemployment statistics either. So any other region in the nation didn't feel the hurt as sharply as the Bay Area.

However, age discrimination is well known, and there is an increasing movement to move jobs overseas. One notable example that comes to mind is maintenance of Java2 Standard Edition has been reassigned to India. This natural consequence of globalization is isn't really a bad thing; however it does cost qualified people jobs in the short term and is an increasing mechanism that U.S. corporations are taking. The real problem I see with "how bad it is" is that the tech industry lied to Congress for years that there weren't enough qualified workers so that they could grossly increase the H1B Visa pool. Personally, I'm all for immigration (that's what this country was built on, frankly) but lying about the job market in the industry to get cheaper labor hurts the job market.

Finally, it's notorious within the tech industry to always be "hiring" when in fact the HR department really doesn't have any recruiting work to do. Face it, turnover has historically been fairly high, so in good times, employees are always coming and going. However, right now, most companies (esp. the big ones) are not creating jobs. If they have a listing for a senior guy with 7 years experience, a PhD at MIT and an MBA at Stanford, well how much meaning does that "opening" have in the actual market?

Personally, the only advice I'd give to you (who sounds like you're in a good spot) is to realize the real path to riches is through equity stake in your own company. The so-called American dream of working methodically your way up the corporate ladder is dead and BS, more so for the many tech workers of foreign descent.

To close, I somewhat disagree with joohang, but I always am, so it's no big deal . If the only openings are for senior positions, then what happens to anyone who graduated within the past couple years? For the most part, it means a lot to own a 4-year B.S C.S. at many U.S. universities. However, as is well known, universities teach computer science, a broad discipline that doesn't target any particular commercial vendor. They don't teach you how to program Oracle. So it's quite difficult to prove that you're good at what you do when your background doesn't mesh with what the company claims to need. I know I personally (and most other qualified geeks) can learn any technology thrown at them. The only way to become a senior engineer is through training and mentorship. And right now, those opportunities are slim nationally with few exceptions.

 

[manly]

VIA bought out Cyrix and Transmeta is based on Silicon Valley as well. Of course, they are not well known, and rumors are constantly flying on when they will fold up shop. Realistically, they have great technology that some conglomerate like Intel would scoop up for peanuts.

FWIW, MIPS and SPARC (Sun) are based in SV as well. ;D

 

[joohang]

<< To close, I somewhat disagree with joohang, but I always am, so it's no big deal . If the only openings are for senior positions, then what happens to anyone who graduated within the past couple years? For the most part, it means a lot to own a 4-year B.S C.S. at many U.S. universities. However, as is well known, universities teach computer science, a broad discipline that doesn't target any particular commercial vendor. They don't teach you how to program Oracle. So it's quite difficult to prove that you're good at what you do when your background doesn't mesh with what the company claims to need. I know I personally (and most other qualified geeks) can learn any technology thrown at them. The only way to become a senior engineer is through training and mentorship. And right now, those opportunities are slim nationally with few exceptions. >>


LOL

Actually, I fully agree with you on that one. Wow.. how did that happen?

But wait:


<< However, as is well known, universities teach computer science, a broad discipline that doesn't target any particular commercial vendor. >>


Yes and no. They target Microsoft. Most computer science academics hate Microsoft with a passion.

 

[satori]

manly: I agree with most of what you're saying... I always thought of programming as a way-of-thinking. If you're brain isn't wired the right way, it's gonna have a tough time thinking about what all those 1's and 0's are doing.

BTW, you guys ever have a moment when you just had to go outside, stare at the sky, and contemplate on how the class/structure/program/algorithm you just finished was a thing of art? I tried to explain this to my g/f and she had >no< idea what I was talking about.

 

[joohang]

<< BTW, you guys ever have a moment when you just had to go outside, stare at the sky, and contemplate on how the class/structure/program/algorithm you just finished was a thing of art? I tried to explain this to my g/f and she had >no< idea what I was talking about. >>


Yes.

Software development is a form of art.

 

[satori]

joohang: You have to admit though, that MFC really makes setting up a program easy. I've had to do some MFC programming and if you've got the algorithm done, it takes less than an hour to set up a GUI, output or Event handler...

 

[joohang]

<< joohang: You have to admit though, that MFC really makes setting up a program easy. I've had to do some MFC programming and if you've got the algorithm done, it takes less than an hour to set up a GUI, output or Event handler... >>


Exactly.

Which is why I find the Computer Science degree pointless for me, although there are several courses that I want to eventually take. I never believed in getting a degree for the sake of getting a job. I don't want to sit down and code C or Ada when I know I don't give a rat's @$$ about them and when I know that I will never need to use it.

There is so much prewritten code that I can approach programming from high level. As geeky as I am, I don't enjoy programming at the low, hardware level. It gets boring easily. On the other hand, I love solving "real-world" business problems. Things like MFC and the .NET Base Class Libraries, and tons of 3rd party components out there allow me to concentrate on issues that really matter.

And btw, unless everybody in this world builds a "Hello World" application or an application that binds data to a prewritten datagrid control, it takes more than an hour to build software. Trust me.

 

[manly]

<< LOL

Actually, I fully agree with you on that one. Wow.. how did that happen? >>


I don't know but maybe you should get your head checked tomorrow, buddy.



<< But wait:


<< However, as is well known, universities teach computer science, a broad discipline that doesn't target any particular commercial vendor. >>


Yes and no. They target Microsoft. Most computer science academics hate Microsoft with a passion. >>

[/i] >>


Touche, yes and no. A lot of departments and universities have sold out to Microsoft technology because they can get seat licenses for a good price. For MS it's smart business but to me, questionable business as well. Because university administration needs to use Microsoft products (namely Windows and Office), they go along with MS' exclusive contracts that cover students as well. I laugh whenever some student brags they can legally get an Office CDR for $5 because they don't realize the rest of the license fee is somewhere in their tuition.

And besides, if academics hate Microsoft technology, they arguably usually have a good reason to.

 

[joohang]

<< And besides, if academics hate Microsoft technology, they arguably usually have a good reason to. >>


LOL.

 

[manly]

Btw, I didn't read the article because the title sounded too questionable for me to look past. :/

However, logically I would think that embedded programming is increasingly valuable. Fewer people are being trained in writing code for small machines, and we're all being spoiled on higher-level languages with rich libraries.

With the robust unit growth in devices (not necessarily PDAs or cell phones, but those are important), embedded development is a growing market. The only wrinkle would be higher-level languages that filter down into the embedded space, i.e. Java2 Micro Edition that's being shipped in cell phones these days.

The guys who need to worry about long-term job security are VB programmers, no offense to any who are lurking. ;D

 

[satori]

Manly: Yah, that's what confused me about the slashdot thread. Just for kicks, I did a monster.com search for jobs in the Bay Area a couple weeks ago, and it seemed like 90% of them were >looking< for embedded engineers.

 

[joohang]

<< However, logically I would think that embedded programming is increasingly valuable. Fewer people are being trained in writing code for small machines, and we're all being spoiled on higher-level languages with rich libraries. >>


Like.. me?



<< With the robust unit growth in devices (not necessarily PDAs or cell phones, but those are important), embedded development is a growing market. The only wrinkle would be higher-level languages that filter down into the embedded space, i.e. Java2 Micro Edition that's being shipped in cell phones these days. >>


Add .NET Compact Framework to that, although I find that it's still too big for mobile devices.

BTW, I completely agree with you that this is the growing market. I've been looking into it more seriously myself. And that reminds me. I know a guy who develops games with J2ME. He was suppposed to demo some of his creations but I forgot to ask him. He wrote his own floating point code because J2ME didn't ship with one! :Q



<< The guys who need to worry about long-term job security are VB programmers, no offense to any who are lurking. ;D >>


I disagree. I know plenty of excellent VB programmers. Those in trouble are people who make ADO calls directly from UI, too lazy to declare variables, and don't study proper OOP and software design.

In other words, those in trouble are VB developers who struggle so much when adopting .NET and VB.NET.

 

[Zebo]

<<
The guys who need to worry about long-term job security are VB programmers, no offense to any who are lurking. ;D >>



Correct me if I'm wrong since I'm not a programmer and only know a little fortran, but can't a good progremmer easily make a transition to another language fairly quickly?

As a side note I can't see any fun in programming. Seems like a solo job with little people interaction and bad for the eyes?

What makes it so attractive? Is it an art to make good code that intrests you guys? Seriously im interested.