Sixth Grader Arrested after Refusing to Stand for Pledge

[realibrad]

I can use my privilege in multiple ways. I don't have to use it to the detriment of others, I can instead use it to help others. I can fight for equality. I can donate time and money to the less fortunate. I can use my privilege to raise others up instead of hold them down.

You would need to net out more help than privilege. How are you able to know the threshold? So if you are getting 5 units extra from privilege and only giving back 2 units, then you are still doing what you claimed about reinforcing and promoting racism. So how much privilege do you have and how are you able to make sure you are helping enough?

 

[SMOGZINN]

You would need to net out more help than privilege. How are you able to know the threshold? So if you are getting 5 units extra from privilege and only giving back 2 units, then you are still doing what you claimed about reinforcing and promoting racism. So how much privilege do you have and how are you able to make sure you are helping enough?

You seem to be working really hard to justify racism with the whole 'It is it is not perfect it is useless' trope. I don't have to account for all my privilege. I simply can't do that. America has spent more than a century building it, I am not going to be able to overcome it in one generation. All I can do is work towards that goal.

 

[realibrad]

You seem to be working really hard to justify racism with the whole 'It is it is not perfect it is useless' trope. I don't have to account for all my privilege. I simply can't do that. America has spent more than a century building it, I am not going to be able to overcome it in one generation. All I can do is work towards that goal.

I'm not justifying racism. What I am saying is that your position that if you are not fighting it, you are helping reinforce it is flawed in my opinion. The reason is that it would be impossible to accurately measure how much you need to do to not reinforce the structure that you did not build. Why you think I am doing anything else would come from your bias and not from what I have said.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I'm not justifying racism. What I am saying is that your position that if you are not fighting it, you are helping reinforce it is flawed in my opinion.

That is the 'if I can't do it all, why bother doing it at all' argument. It is a direct argument that we can't fight racism so we might as well embrace it.

The reason is that it would be impossible to accurately measure how much you need to do to not reinforce the structure that you did not build. Why you think I am doing anything else would come from your bias and not from what I have said.

It is easy to say something is not perfect, but if you offer no solutions then you argument has no value. We can all see it is not a perfect solution, it is just the best we have found. If you don't like it then what solutions do you suggest?

 

[realibrad]

That is the 'if I can't do it all, why bother doing it at all' argument. It is a direct argument that we can't fight racism so we might as well embrace it.




It is easy to say something is not perfect, but if you offer no solutions then you argument has no value. We can all see it is not a perfect solution, it is just the best we have found. If you don't like it then what solutions do you suggest?

No, I'm not saying if you cant do it all why do it. I'm asking how you you can extricate yourself from the racism when the system you have established should mean everyone with white privilege should be racist. If one wanted to do enough to help, he would have to do an amount greater than his privilege.

 

[SMOGZINN]

No, I'm not saying if you cant do it all why do it.

And yet you say one sentence later:

If one wanted to do enough to help, he would have to do an amount greater than his privilege.

What do you suggest we do?

 

[realibrad]

And yet you say one sentence later:



What do you suggest we do?

I disagree with your perspective. I don't think inaction is reinforcing a structure I do not believe exists. I'm not saying racism is not part of society, but, I disagree with institutionalized racism. But, I want to understand your position. Telling you my position is not going to help me understand yours.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I disagree with your perspective. I don't think inaction is reinforcing a structure I do not believe exists. I'm not saying racism is not part of society, but, I disagree with institutionalized racism. But, I want to understand your position. Telling you my position is not going to help me understand yours.

I thought I was pretty clear with my position. Do what you can, when you can. You are arguing against my position by trying to find places where it can fail. I never said it was perfect, only that it was what I had to work with.

 

[Starbuck1975]

You wanna point out in that quote specifically the part where I called it racist?

Teachers don't get to do whatever they want either, and even if a 11 year old kid is being rowdy or even if he threatens violence, you don't call the fucking police, you either throw him out or take him to the principal's office and call his parents or something.

The reality for many teachers is that the principals are completely paralyzed when it comes to disciplinary matters and the parents are either completely disengaged or come at them with “my kid can do know wrong”.

 

[Vic]

The reality for many teachers is that the principals are completely paralyzed when it comes to disciplinary matters and the parents are either completely disengaged or come at them with “my kid can do know wrong”.

Except that in the case, sitting for the pledge is a protected constitutional right, as so ruled by SCOTUS, so there was no disciplinary matter until the teacher tried to violate his right to sit and inappropriately confronted him on the issue.

 

[realibrad]

I thought I was pretty clear with my position. Do what you can, when you can. You are arguing against my position by trying to find places where it can fail. I never said it was perfect, only that it was what I had to work with.

The problem of "what you can when you can" is that it seems too ambiguous to me. You 100% could lower your quality of life by giving up part of your income and what you have to help those around you. You likely do not do everything you can when you can. Would that be fair?

 

[Starbuck1975]

Except that in the case, sitting for the pledge is a protected constitutional right, as so ruled by SCOTUS, so there was no disciplinary matter until the teacher tried to violate his right to sit and inappropriately confronted him on the issue.

Sitting for the pledge may be a protected right, but as it pertains to a 6th grader’s maturity level, it really depends on behavioral aspects as well. I don’t envy teachers in today’s political climate.

 

[realibrad]

Sitting for the pledge may be a protected right, but as it pertains to a 6th grader’s maturity level, it really depends on behavioral aspects as well. I don’t envy teachers in today’s political climate.

How it used to be in school.

 

[Vic]

Sitting for the pledge may be a protected right, but as it pertains to a 6th grader’s maturity level, it really depends on behavioral aspects as well. I don’t envy teachers in today’s political climate.

This isn't a 'today' thing. The SCOTUS ruling was in 1943.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

 

[realibrad]

This isn't a 'today' thing. The SCOTUS ruling was in 1943.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

The political climate today is very different than in 1943. Star is saying that trying to be a teacher today and navigating all the hot button issues must be tough.

 

[Viper1j]

No one here said the pledge was racist, moron.

Ever read the 3rd verse of the Star Spangled Banner?

"And where is that band who so vauntingly swore, That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more? Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. "

Nah, nothing racist about that.

 

[Vic]

The political climate today is very different than in 1943. Star is saying that trying to be a teacher today and navigating all the hot button issues must be tough.

1943 was the middle of WWII. The very reason for that SCOTUS decision was because the Nazis were executing Jehovahs Witnesses for their religious objections to saluting the Nazi flag, and we didn't want to be like that here in the Land of the Free.

But yeah, I'm sure that the hot button issues of today are much tougher to navigate... /s


All this teacher had to do was respect this student's right to sit. If she was really concerned, she could have notified the parents. But escalating the issue through direct and inappropriately insulting confrontation with a 6th grader was the stupidest way to handle it, and is why she's unemployed today.

 

[realibrad]

1943 was the middle of WWII. The very reason for that SCOTUS decision was because the Nazis were executing Jehovahs Witnesses for their religious objections to saluting the Nazi flag, and we didn't want to be like that here in the Land of the Free.

But yeah, I'm sure that the hot button issues of today are much tougher to navigate... /s


All this teacher had to do was respect this student's right to sit. If she was really concerned, she could have notified the parents. But escalating the issue through direct and inappropriately insulting confrontation with a 6th grader was the stupidest way to handle it, and is why she's unemployed today.

Lol, oh god are you right. We are so far from WWII so why are we complaining. Also note that Jim crow laws are gone, but yeah I'm sure that racism is a problem today.

 

[Starbuck1975]

This isn't a 'today' thing. The SCOTUS ruling was in 1943.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

Unchecked and undisciplined bad behavior in classrooms is certainly a today thing. Since neither of us were in thr classroom, difficult to say if this is a freedom of speech thing or disruptive kid thing.

 

[brandonbull]

American schools are weird.

Imagine if this story was "Chinese child dragged away by police for refusing to take part in chant of obedience to state", you guys would presumably think that was odd?

Or if in the UK we made children recite an oath to the Queen under threat of punishment?

Except that isn't exactly what happened.

 

[brycejones]

Unchecked and undisciplined bad behavior in classrooms is certainly a today thing. .

That sounds like your feels. I am sure you have stats showing rates of such behavior across various decades. Or are we going with the occasional news story as a stand in for such data?

 

[Viper1j]

America: One nation, under surveillance, with waterboards and wiretaps for all. In the land of the fee, and the home of the slave..

 

[Starbuck1975]

That sounds like your feels. I am sure you have stats showing rates of such behavior across various decades. Or are we going with the occasional news story as a stand in for such data?

It is my feels, and if you held a conversation with those who work at public schools, you would feel the same. The only time school discipline makes the news is when it checks the sufficient boxes of social media outrage.

 

[DarthKyrie]

I wonder how this stupid bitch would have handled some of the kids I went to school with (as an aside I was in kindergarten in North Carolina the only time I went to school with black kids). There were fights almost every single day, yes there was the occasional fight between a teacher and student and not once were the cops called. It was always dealt with between the school and the parents, I think only 1 student was ever expelled and that was for property damage, most of the time detention or suspension.

 

[Jimzz]

Color me shocked, the DA does not want any of this hot mess...

Florida sixth-grader arrested in Pledge of Allegiance dispute will not be prosecuted
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/07/us/florida-pledge-of-allegiance-dispute/index.html