Sixth Grader Arrested after Refusing to Stand for Pledge

[Jhhnn]

Bingo.

And more importantly, an adult should know how to handle a situation like this in a more respectful way instead of going the "get off my lawn" route.

Like I said earlier- that's easy. Just get on with the lesson as planned. If the teacher wants to talk to him about it, ask him to stay for a few minutes at the end of class.

 

[Zorba]

What if the context is this...

Kid - This country hates Black people and hates me.
Teacher - If the country hates you so much, and life is so bad here, why not leave and go someone where life is better?

Would that be racist?

That probably wouldn't be racist, however, it also wouldn't be productive and kind of shitty to say to an 11 yo. Any time you tell anyone to leave if they don't like something it is highly dismissive of their opinions and shows you don't care about having a real conversation.

 

[realibrad]

6th graders don't have positions. Nor are they are able to just pack up and leave the country if they don't like it.

Don't accuse me of starting an argument and the respond to my question lol.

You are right that the kid has no ability, but, I think the context is not racist. In my hypothetical it saying that if someone does have the ability to leave then why don't they.

 

[interchange]

Like I said earlier- that's easy. Just get on with the lesson as planned. If the teacher wants to talk to him about it, ask him to stay for a few minutes at the end of class.

That's a reasonable suggestion. My imagination is that there is an opportunity for the whole class to benefit from a discussion, but I agree there might have been better options.

I also don't agree that 6th graders can't have positions on things. Obviously their capacity for taking a mature position is still developing. However, they clearly have some appreciation for their position in life and capacity to apply reason for a stance. I think if our goal is to develop this, we are best suited to recognize these capacities and engage them and even (to a carefully titrated degree) challenge them.

 

[realibrad]

That probably wouldn't be racist, however, it also wouldn't be productive and kind of shitty to say to an 11 yo. Any time you tell anyone to leave if they don't like something it is highly dismissive of their opinions and shows you don't care about having a real conversation.

Shitty yes. I just wanted insight into your position on the subject.

 

[Zorba]

Firstly, I don't find shaming someone a desirable way for anyone to act in any circumstance.

Beyond that, I disagree. I think the teacher eliciting the reason for protest and engaging in a discussion that respects his right to do so would be good. And the teacher may disagree with the choice and communicate that clearly, so long as they are an ally in protecting his right to choose it and to hold on to and communicate his reasons for doing so.

Such a discussion may not have been practically possible here. Who knows? None of us were in the room, so it's really impossible to judge what actually happened much less impute what could have been possible. But to me the tragedy here is that authority quickly degenerated into acting out the role he cast them in. They replayed in action the conflict he perceived in life, reinforcing on both sides that this is the way things are. I don't think they have to be, but we need to move way beyond establishing right and wrong as the outcome of dispute to get there. The important part of truly free speech is freedom to maintain disagreement without destroying the nature of a relationship. If the consequences of dispute are capitulation by one party or abandonment of the relationship, then speech is not truly free.

I agree with what you are saying, but I think that conversation should happen in private, not public. Unless the kid has specifically said he is willing to discuss in front of the class.

But if the only reason the teacher asks is because she is offended, it probably won't be productive. Also since this was a sub, she really should've stayed out of it.

I completely agree with your last paragraph.

 

[brycejones]

Nor can the parents either. They said they didn't teach him the flag was racist.

So the question that was asked repeatedly in this thread by a certain poster was meaningless.

 

[HurleyBird]

I highly doubt she would've told a white kid to go back to where he was from.

Why not? Replace this kid with a white first generation immigrant and you somehow see the exchange going down differently? On what basis?

Telling a black person to go back to Africa is racist

He's a first generation immigrant. He's not descended from slaves. He wasn't born in America. But due to the color of his skin you want to treat him like all of that is the case? That's actually racist. But asking a first generation immigrant that hates the country he moved to why he would be there in the first place isn't racist. It may be dismissive, it's a bit dumb considering his parents made the choice, and I totally agree it's not a good question to ask a sixth grader in front of the other students, but that isn't under contention. Whether or not the teacher is racist is.

regardless, there is a history of racist saying those things.

Which is an irrelevant genetic fallacy.

If the kid would've told her to go back to Cuba that would've also likely been racist.

Besides the fact that in the phrases the teacher allegedly said she never told him to go back to Africa, only suggested that he could, this wouldn't have fit the situation at all. It's a false equivalency. The teacher obviously loves America. If the teacher had moved to the USA and then started complaining about how bad it is, then asking her why she came here instead of somewhere else or didn't move back to Cuba would not be racist.

Again, "you can just go back where you came from" isn't in and of itself racist, it's the trailing "because." "Because we're better off without your your kind" is racist, but "because you supposedly hate it here" has nothing to do with race and is not.

Further I doubt a white kid would've felt that the country didn't want him, leading to a much different conversation.

If he was a Russian, perhaps. But again that's not relevant. It isn't the kid's situation or his motivation that makes the teacher racist or not racist -- it's the teacher's intent.

 

[soulcougher73]

Anyone here that claims to be sure of how this situation went down is projecting. You and I have no idea how that kid was acting, what he said, if the teacher was just being ridiculous, etc.

Not sure what any of this has to do with his question. Goal post successfully moved.

 

[SMOGZINN]

It isn't the kid's situation or his motivation that makes the teacher racist or not racist -- it's the teacher's intent.

Actually it is both, especially when dealing with kids you have to aware of not only your intentions but of the impression you leave on them. Kids are reactionary by nature, they do not have a very nuanced understanding of the world and do not have enough knowledge or experience to reason out what a person's intentions are. So, if you work with kids you need to be extra carful to maintain both good intention and clear communication of that intention.

 

[HurleyBird]

Actually it is both, especially when dealing with kids you have to aware of not only your intentions but of the impression you leave on them. Kids are reactionary by nature, they do not have a very nuanced understanding of the world and do not have enough knowledge or experience to reason out what a person's intentions are. So, if you work with kids you need to be extra carful to maintain both good intention and clear communication of that intention.

Which still doesn't make the teacher racist if her intent wasn't racist in nature. A bad teacher maybe, but not a racist.

 

[Paratus]

Sure is a whole bunch of this:

In this thread.

 

[feralkid]

Sure is a whole bunch of this:

In this thread.

Some have learned to fling the evil.

 

[Jhhnn]

That's a reasonable suggestion. My imagination is that there is an opportunity for the whole class to benefit from a discussion, but I agree there might have been better options.

I also don't agree that 6th graders can't have positions on things. Obviously their capacity for taking a mature position is still developing. However, they clearly have some appreciation for their position in life and capacity to apply reason for a stance. I think if our goal is to develop this, we are best suited to recognize these capacities and engage them and even (to a carefully titrated degree) challenge them.

Which is exactly what the teacher failed to do. I mean, who's the adult, right?

 

[Zorba]

Why not? Replace this kid with a white first generation immigrant and you somehow see the exchange going down differently? On what basis?

Note: I haven't seen his or his family's immigration status mentioned in any article, please share a link if you have. But the rest of this post assumes you're right.

Obviously there is no way to actually know, but I doubt the teacher would've said anything to begin with. I also seriously doubt a substitute teacher had any idea he was a first generation immigrant.

He's a first generation immigrant. He's not descended from slaves. He wasn't born in America. But due to the color of his skin you want to treat him like all of that is the case? That's actually racist. But asking a first generation immigrant that hates the country he moved to why he would be there in the first place isn't racist. It may be dismissive, it's a bit dumb considering his parents made the choice, and I totally agree it's not a good question to ask a sixth grader in front of the other students, but that isn't under contention. Whether or not the teacher is racist is.

I was impressed we got to 6 pages before we got the "no you are a racist for pointing out racism." A very high percentage of blacks in the US are descendants of slaves. Regardless telling any immigrant to go back to where they came from is probably coming from a prejudiced place.

Which is an irrelevant genetic fallacy.

There are many things that are racist due to historical usage. An easy example is black face.

Besides the fact that in the phrases the teacher allegedly said she never told him to go back to Africa, only suggested that he could, this wouldn't have fit the situation at all. It's a false equivalency. The teacher obviously loves America. If the teacher had moved to the USA and then started complaining about how bad it is, then asking her why she came here instead of somewhere else or didn't move back to Cuba would not be racist.

Again, "you can just go back where you came from" isn't in and of itself racist, it's the trailing "because." "Because we're better off without your your kind" is racist, but "because you supposedly hate it here" has nothing to do with race and is not.[/quote]

He asked if she meant Africa and she said yes (according to his side of the story). Your argument is basically if you use a dog whistle it isn't racist. The "because we don't want you here" is implyed when you tell someone they can/should/could go back to where they came from.

What's funny in the Gillette thread you were in agreement with me that the dog whistles were wrong.

If he was a Russian, perhaps. But again that's not relevant. It isn't the kid's situation or his motivation that makes the teacher racist or not racist -- it's the teacher's intent.

I'm not disagreeing with that, however, it is how she responded to a minority kid that felt maligned that makes her appear racist.

 

[HurleyBird]

Note: I haven't seen his or his family's immigration status mentioned in any article, please share a link if you have. But the rest of this post assumes you're right.

That's based on: '“They brought me here,” the boy replied' rather than the typical and expected "I was born here."

I was impressed we got to 6 pages before we got the "no you are a racist for pointing out racism."

Well, if you weren't under the impression that he's an immigrant I'll take it back, since in that case the observation doesn't apply anymore.

There are many things that are racist due to historical usage. An easy example is black face.

Tell that to Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder. Again, it's the intent.

Your argument is basically if you use a dog whistle it isn't racist. The "because we don't want you here" is implyed when you tell someone they can/should/could go back to where they came from.

What's funny in the Gillette thread you were in agreement with me that the dog whistles were wrong.

You'd have to remind me what I said exactly. But no, using a common "dog whistle" in and of itself doesn't make one racist. There also needs to be racist intent behind the action.

I'm not disagreeing with that, however, it is how she responded to a minority kid that felt maligned that makes her appear racist.

Nah, what would be racist would be treating the hypothetical Russian kid differently from the black kid on the basis of their respective race.

 

[Lanyap]

Meh, Polk county. Most of the weird/stupid stuff that hits the news from Florida comes out of Polk county. Something happens there almost everyday that hits the local news. I didn't realize that middle schools still do the PoA everyday. The sub teacher should have just let the kid sit it out.

The kids mother said her son normally doesn't stand for the pledge, but last week he had a substitute teacher, who instructed him to stand up.

https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/...ted-for-refusing-to-participate-in-the-pledge

Polk County Public Schools says the disturbance in the classroom followed the daily Pledge of Allegiance. School officials say students are not required to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance and in a release, the district says "unfortunately, a substitute teacher was not aware of this and she engaged in an exchange of words with the student and called the school's administration to come to her classroom."

The school district says the School Resource Officer made the decision to arrest the student and the school did not request charges to be pressed or for an arrest to be made.

The substitute teacher, hired by Kelly Services, was asked to leave campus immediately after providing a written statement, according to Polk County Public Schools. The district says this substitute teacher will no longer be allowed to work at any of their schools.

School officials say they discussed the district's Code of Conduct with the student and his family and disciplinary measures were taken in accordance with their Code of Conduct.

"We do not condone the substitute’s behavior. We respect our students’ right to freedom of expression and we are committed to protecting that critical right while ensuring peaceful classrooms so all students can learn."​

 

[Zorba]

That's based on: '“They brought me here,” the boy replied' rather than the typical and expected "I was born here."

That could mean he immigrated recently, or he could mean "they brought my people here in chains on slave ships." I wasn't sure how literally he meant it.

Tell that to Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder. Again, it's the intent.

There is obviously exceptions to everything, but most people in black will be considered either racist or ignorant. I think similar applies to saying a black person looks like an ape or that they can/should go back to Africa.

Nah, what would be racist would be treating the hypothetical Russian kid differently from the black kid on the basis of their respective race.

The problem is we won't ever know how she would've handled a hypothetical white American or white immigrant.

 

[interchange]

Which is exactly what the teacher failed to do. I mean, who's the adult, right?

Not just the teacher. There were many many adults involved in this situation. It probably just took one.

 

[HurleyBird]

The problem is we won't ever know how she would've handled a hypothetical white American or white immigrant.

And do you have any reason to think she would have treated them differently?

 

[SMOGZINN]

Which still doesn't make the teacher racist if her intent wasn't racist in nature. A bad teacher maybe, but not a racist.

I disagree, her intent matters not at all if her actions have the same effect. I don't care if someone does not intend to be racist if their actions create discrimination they are racist.

 

[realibrad]

I disagree, her intent matters not at all if her actions have the same effect. I don't care if someone does not intend to be racist if their actions create discrimination they are racist.

So are you the type to think all white people are racist because white people have white privilege which furthers discrimination?

 

[SMOGZINN]

So are you the type to think all white people are racist because white people have white privilege which furthers discrimination?

No, but I think that when they use that privilege in a way that harms others it is racist, even if they are not intentionally trying to hurt others but just improve themselves.

 

[realibrad]

No, but I think that when they use that privilege in a way that harms others it is racist, even if they are not intentionally trying to hurt others but just improve themselves.

But you cant turn off privilege right? Simply living your live is utilizing your privilege so you must always be reinforcing and extending that race based privilege and so literally all must be racist. Unless people do not have privilege based on their race. You cant have it both ways.

 

[SMOGZINN]

But you cant turn off privilege right? Simply living your live is utilizing your privilege so you must always be reinforcing and extending that race based privilege and so literally all must be racist. Unless people do not have privilege based on their race. You cant have it both ways.

I can use my privilege in multiple ways. I don't have to use it to the detriment of others, I can instead use it to help others. I can fight for equality. I can donate time and money to the less fortunate. I can use my privilege to raise others up instead of hold them down.