Since Hamas is the elected government...

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: daniel49
Isreal has made numerous concessions and Hamas has done nothing but propigate hate and vengence.

Israel's ceaseless colonization of Palestinian land has been propagating hate and vengeance since long before Hamas ever existed. What concessions have been made only served to further that colonization, and the conflict cannot end s long as Israel insists on expanding their civilian population into the West Bank.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Hamas got elected for a reason:
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2263963&enterthread=y

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Hamas got elected for a reason:
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2263963&enterthread=y

True, but hopefully in the future, political organizations will pop up to provide the needed social services without preaching (or practicing) violence like Hamas. Until that time, we will keep seeing what we see now, which is a tragedy for all sides involved. The Gazans are stuck between a rock and a hard place....

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: blackangst1
So whats the answer then? Diplomacy?

Stop the colonization of the West Bank. That has gone on unabated though all the previous attempts at diplomacy, and Israel's flagrant disregard for the Palestinians right to their own territory it is the reason why those previous attempts at negotiation have failed. Only after Israel stops expanding their borders will diplomacy have the opportunity to bring an end to this conflict.

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I don't want to say that TheSnowman is wrong, but that is a weird argument. If a fair settlement is 50/50, saying stop settling the West bank is a 98 Israel/2 for the pals point
as it is.

Any fair settlement has to go back to 1948 and the right to return.

The holy land, sacred to three religions, can be shared fairly by all, but it can't be pigged by just one group.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: blackangst1
So whats the answer then? Diplomacy?

Stop the colonization of the West Bank. That has gone on unabated though all the previous attempts at diplomacy, and Israel's flagrant disregard for the Palestinians right to their own territory it is the reason why those previous attempts at negotiation have failed. Only after Israel stops expanding their borders will diplomacy have the opportunity to bring an end to this conflict.

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I don't want to say that TheSnowman is wrong, but that is a weird argument. If a fair settlement is 50/50, saying stop settling the West bank is a 98 Israel/2 for the pals point
as it is.

Any fair settlement has to go back to 1948 and the right to return.

The holy land, sacred to three religions, can be shared fairly by all, but it can't be pigged by just one group.

Not entirely sure what you're saying, but if it means one secular democratic state, then :thumbsup:

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: blackangst1
So whats the answer then? Diplomacy?

Stop the colonization of the West Bank. That has gone on unabated though all the previous attempts at diplomacy, and Israel's flagrant disregard for the Palestinians right to their own territory it is the reason why those previous attempts at negotiation have failed. Only after Israel stops expanding their borders will diplomacy have the opportunity to bring an end to this conflict.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't want to say that TheSnowman is wrong, but that is a weird argument. If a fair settlement is 50/50, saying stop settling the West bank is a 98 Israel/2 for the pals point
as it is.

Any fair settlement has to go back to 1948 and the right to return.

The holy land, sacred to three religions, can be shared fairly by all, but it can't be pigged by just one group.

A fair settlement from the Palestinian point depends on what the loser wants, not what is best for the winner.
The Palestinians and their supporters still do not understand that they made the wrong choices. The Pals need to show that they are willing to work with Israel. It is no longer Israel's responsiblity to show that they will bend over for the Palestinians.

Israel has bent over more than 5 times and it has accomplished nothing. (4 to the Arabs and a few consessions to the Pals)

 

[Lemon law]

The Common Courtesy myth is " Israel has bent over more than 5 times and it has accomplished nothing. (4 to the Arabs and a few consessions to the Pals) "

The truth is Israel has yet to offer a fair settlement, never, not once. That is a myth. Israel may have come closest with Arifat, but without the right to return, which is the required fairness minimum,
we can see all Israeli offers have been far less than fair.

Its this lack of a FAIR settlement that has kept this conflict going for 60 years now and will keep it going for the foreseeable future.

We can also see what Israel offered as a peace partner at the recent Annapolis peace conference. (1) It would not even have gotten anywhere if the Palestinians did not table the issue continued expansion Israeli settlements in the West Bank. (2) No progress on establishing a Palestinian State.

Bottom line, the Palestinians can suffer in silence in the West bank and they get nothing, they can protest and engage in feeble retaliation and they get nothing, but
the human spirit does not tend to give up until fair is reached.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: JTsyo
Before it could have been said that Hamas was just a terrorist operation but since they have been elected into power, I would think Israel would have much more justification in broader attacks. Since they were elected, their action are technically endorsed by the people. I think by being the official power, Hamas has opened many more doors against them.

Hamas doesn't want peace. They want Jihad-WAR!

Israel is sending the kind of message they always send. Punch me once, you get 10 punches in return.

This is all about as stupid and low as humans can go. These are religious people, acting like feral beasts. What good is your religion if you send rockets into civilian populations and drop bombs on civilians?

Religion is awful. It's one of the big causes of much of this kind of stuff.

A pox on Israel and the Arabs. I'm done supporting Israel, and I certainly won't support the Arabs as long as this behavior continues.

-Robert

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The Common Courtesy myth is " Israel has bent over more than 5 times and it has accomplished nothing. (4 to the Arabs and a few consessions to the Pals) "

The truth is Israel has yet to offer a fair settlement, never, not once. That is a myth. Israel may have come closest with Arifat, but without the right to return, which is the required fairness minimum,
we can see all Israeli offers have been far less than fair.

Its this lack of a FAIR settlement that has kept this conflict going for 60 years now and will keep it going for the foreseeable future.

Who determines fair.

Israel agreed to a peace with the Arabs 4 times. Everytime that peace was "agreed" to, the Arabs broke it.

Israel is requested to give up conquered land for peace.
Egypt keeps their word.
Jordan says - no more hostilities and you can keep the West Bank. - Jordan keeps their word.

Arafat states he wants peace but allows his militant wing to continue to operate
Hezbollah states they want peace but kept shooting into Israel. Israel retaliates and Hezbollah starts wanting a cease fire.
Israel attempts to trade land for peace by pulling out of Gaza. The Pals destroy what was abandoned, militants move closer and keep launching rockets.
Hamas states they want a truce yet they publicy state they will not stop groups from launching rockets.
Hamas also has not renounced their charter to destroy Israel.

And you feel that Israel should trust them.

Israel does not need to make "fair" offers that jepordize her perceived safety until the other side(s) are willing to ensure Israel's safety from her viewpoint.

 

[Lemon law]

Common Courtesy has somewhat hit the catch 22 of the whole Israel Palestinian Arab conflict in saying, " Israel does not need to make "fair" offers that jepordize her perceived safety until the other side(s) are willing to ensure Israel's safety from her viewpoint."

Israel is unwilling to jeopardize its safety by reaching a fair settlement, and without a fair settlement, all the 100's of Millions of surrounding Arabs are only prevented from removing Israel because of Israeli military might. So Israel is in perpetual danger because its presently so unfair.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The Common Courtesy myth is " Israel has bent over more than 5 times and it has accomplished nothing. (4 to the Arabs and a few consessions to the Pals) "

The truth is Israel has yet to offer a fair settlement, never, not once. That is a myth. Israel may have come closest with Arifat, but without the right to return, which is the required fairness minimum,
we can see all Israeli offers have been far less than fair.

Its this lack of a FAIR settlement that has kept this conflict going for 60 years now and will keep it going for the foreseeable future.

We can also see what Israel offered as a peace partner at the recent Annapolis peace conference. (1) It would not even have gotten anywhere if the Palestinians did not table the issue continued expansion Israeli settlements in the West Bank. (2) No progress on establishing a Palestinian State.

Bottom line, the Palestinians can suffer in silence in the West bank and they get nothing, they can protest and engage in feeble retaliation and they get nothing, but
the human spirit does not tend to give up until fair is reached.

What's fair? When you are the losing, militarily inferior side, you can't ask for fairness. You should just take the best offered for you at the time. If the world stressed this enough, there would be peace.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Common Courtesy has somewhat hit the catch 22 of the whole Israel Palestinian Arab conflict in saying, " Israel does not need to make "fair" offers that jepordize her perceived safety until the other side(s) are willing to ensure Israel's safety from her viewpoint."

Israel is unwilling to jeopardize its safety by reaching a fair settlement, and without a fair settlement, all the 100's of Millions of surrounding Arabs are only prevented from removing Israel because of Israeli military might. So Israel is in perpetual danger because its presently so unfair.

Uhh... it's not "perceived safety" or "safety from her viewpoint" - it's stop shooting rockets and sending suicide/homicide bombers in. Sheesh.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Common Courtesy has somewhat hit the catch 22 of the whole Israel Palestinian Arab conflict in saying, " Israel does not need to make "fair" offers that jepordize her perceived safety until the other side(s) are willing to ensure Israel's safety from her viewpoint."

Israel is unwilling to jeopardize its safety by reaching a fair settlement, and without a fair settlement, all the 100's of Millions of surrounding Arabs are only prevented from removing Israel because of Israeli military might. So Israel is in perpetual danger because its presently so unfair.

Uhh... it's not "perceived safety" or "safety from her viewpoint" - it's stop shooting rockets and sending suicide/homicide bombers in. Sheesh.

Oh come on! There's no proof any of these rockets are coming from Hamas or the Palestinians.. Its probably the Israeli's doing it just to make it look like the Palestinians don't want peace. :roll:

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: JTsyo
Before it could have been said that Hamas was just a terrorist operation but since they have been elected into power, I would think Israel would have much more justification in broader attacks. Since they were elected, their action are technically endorsed by the people. I think by being the official power, Hamas has opened many more doors against them.

Very true

Just as Americans are not an innocent people either, they voted for Bush twice.

Which just goes to show that Americans are just as gullible as Palestinians. Anybody can have the wool pulled over their eyes. Palestinians were fools to believe that Hamas would really change its stripes once elected into office just like Americans were fools to believe Bush could do better a second time around.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: JTsyo
Before it could have been said that Hamas was just a terrorist operation but since they have been elected into power, I would think Israel would have much more justification in broader attacks. Since they were elected, their action are technically endorsed by the people. I think by being the official power, Hamas has opened many more doors against them.

Perhaps it would give Israel more of a justification for the use of force against Gaza, but it doesn't give Israel any power to indiscriminately kill innocent civilians, even if they voted for Hamas.

 

[JTsyo]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: JTsyo
Before it could have been said that Hamas was just a terrorist operation but since they have been elected into power, I would think Israel would have much more justification in broader attacks. Since they were elected, their action are technically endorsed by the people. I think by being the official power, Hamas has opened many more doors against them.

Perhaps it would give Israel more of a justification for the use of force against Gaza, but it doesn't give Israel any power to indiscriminately kill innocent civilians, even if they voted for Hamas.

I wasn't thinking along the lines of holding the citizens responsible for the actions of the government but that now that Hamas is a government it can be made to sign a treaty. When they were just a terrorist group there isn't much you can do officially with them.

 

[Lemon law]

Hamas is just one of many terrorist organizations operating in the mid-east. So to 100% say Hamas is the organization firing the rockets may be a stretch. And now if Hamas now decides to change policy and quit firing any rockets, its going to be harder than ever to stop other groups from doing so, because its Hamas policemen who have been targeted by the air assaults.

As we can see from the Lebanon experience, Israeli retaliation increased and not decreased Hezbollah support, and with the collapse of Annapolis peace conference, I expect that its Fatah and not Hamas that will go the way of the dodo.

All this latest Israeli retaliation seems to have thus far produced is to deepen hatreds and further isolate Israel.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Hamas is just one of many terrorist organizations operating in the mid-east. So to 100% say Hamas is the organization firing the rockets may be a stretch. And now if Hamas now decides to change policy and quit firing any rockets, its going to be harder than ever to stop other groups from doing so, because its Hamas policemen who have been targeted by the air assaults.

As we can see from the Lebanon experience, Israeli retaliation increased and not decreased Hezbollah support, and with the collapse of Annapolis peace conference, I expect that its Fatah and not Hamas that will go the way of the dodo.

All this latest Israeli retaliation seems to have thus far produced is to deepen hatreds and further isolate Israel.

You are repeating over and over with no regard to reality, which shows:

1. Hizbullah has been awfully quiet lately. I wonder why.
Lebanese people won't let them pick up another fight after the devastation of 2006, so in this case, I say job well done.

2. Arab countries sit idly and watch Gaza gets bombed. They would get up in arms, but not this time. They understand organizations like Hamas are dangerous for them even more so than for Israel.

3. Countries around the world sit quietly too. I don't hear too many condemnations, and the international community as a whole is dragging its feet.

So obviously Hamas hates Israel more, but that was to be expected.