Shula: Give Pats asterisk if they go 16-0

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MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
17,124
12
81
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: jjsole
Give the man credit where credit is do...his record has stood for over 35 years. That's beyond insane.

This is all about giving credit to where credit is due. past/present/future. This record has not been broken yet, but already he is disrespecting them. I hope the Pats continue to pound the hell out of their opponents.

That being said, the Pats games vs Pitt and Indy(playoffs) will be awesome games to watch.

There's nothing Shula could say that disrespects the Patriots in regards to cheating. The Pats disrespected themselves by getting caught cheating, and deserve all the flack they get.

He is implying that they should have an asterisk because they gained an unfair advantage. They did not get an unfair advantage. IMO, they got punished for a rule violation, not cheating.

Don't get me wrong, I hate cheaters as much as the next guy. IMO, bonds(yes lower case) deserves an asterisk because he cheated (gained an unfair advantage).

Breaking a rule = cheating (What is your definition of cheating - breaking a rule with relish?)

Why do the Pats get off so easy when they were actually CAUGHT cheating, but NOTHING has been PROVEN against Bonds (no matter what you believe) and he has been tarred and feathered?

MotionMan
 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
17,124
12
81
Originally posted by: MotF Bane
Originally posted by: Phokus
I don't think it was a rule change, they just sent a written warning this year about it... it's been against the rules for a while. But you're right about it being a common practice. Jimmy Johnson admitted to doing it for KC/Dallas/Miami... he even outed Howard Mudd, the colt's offensive line coach as a signal stealer. I dunno, to me it's not that big a deal, like it wasn't that big a deal when Denver and San Francisco circumvented salary cap restrictions during their superbowl years and got punished for it, or when the steelers did the same thing in 2000, or when the steelers were penalized a 3rd round pick for illegally using shoulder pads and engaging in contact during their training camp during Chuck Noll's era (this was dubbed "shouldergate" back then). It's funny seeing people's heads explode over this, like it's worse than steroids though.

What's so wrong with shoulder pads and contact...?

There are rules against suiting up in pads and contact before a certain date. It was during off-season "workouts", not during sanctioned training camp.

MotionMan
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: MotF Bane
Originally posted by: Phokus
I don't think it was a rule change, they just sent a written warning this year about it... it's been against the rules for a while. But you're right about it being a common practice. Jimmy Johnson admitted to doing it for KC/Dallas/Miami... he even outed Howard Mudd, the colt's offensive line coach as a signal stealer. I dunno, to me it's not that big a deal, like it wasn't that big a deal when Denver and San Francisco circumvented salary cap restrictions during their superbowl years and got punished for it, or when the steelers did the same thing in 2000, or when the steelers were penalized a 3rd round pick for illegally using shoulder pads and engaging in contact during their training camp during Chuck Noll's era (this was dubbed "shouldergate" back then). It's funny seeing people's heads explode over this, like it's worse than steroids though.

What's so wrong with shoulder pads and contact...?

Not sure why the rule is in place, but Chuck Knoll wanted to better prepare his players so he circumvented the rules and allowed his players to practice in pads and hit each other. Practicing in pads with collision is much different than practicing without. He got busted and lost a 3rd round pick.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: MotionMan
Originally posted by: MotF Bane
Originally posted by: Phokus
I don't think it was a rule change, they just sent a written warning this year about it... it's been against the rules for a while. But you're right about it being a common practice. Jimmy Johnson admitted to doing it for KC/Dallas/Miami... he even outed Howard Mudd, the colt's offensive line coach as a signal stealer. I dunno, to me it's not that big a deal, like it wasn't that big a deal when Denver and San Francisco circumvented salary cap restrictions during their superbowl years and got punished for it, or when the steelers did the same thing in 2000, or when the steelers were penalized a 3rd round pick for illegally using shoulder pads and engaging in contact during their training camp during Chuck Noll's era (this was dubbed "shouldergate" back then). It's funny seeing people's heads explode over this, like it's worse than steroids though.

What's so wrong with shoulder pads and contact...?

There are rules against suiting up in pads and contact before a certain date. It was during off-season "workouts", not during sanctioned training camp.

MotionMan

It was during mini-camp.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: MotionMan
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: jjsole
Give the man credit where credit is do...his record has stood for over 35 years. That's beyond insane.

This is all about giving credit to where credit is due. past/present/future. This record has not been broken yet, but already he is disrespecting them. I hope the Pats continue to pound the hell out of their opponents.

That being said, the Pats games vs Pitt and Indy(playoffs) will be awesome games to watch.

There's nothing Shula could say that disrespects the Patriots in regards to cheating. The Pats disrespected themselves by getting caught cheating, and deserve all the flack they get.

He is implying that they should have an asterisk because they gained an unfair advantage. They did not get an unfair advantage. IMO, they got punished for a rule violation, not cheating.

Don't get me wrong, I hate cheaters as much as the next guy. IMO, bonds(yes lower case) deserves an asterisk because he cheated (gained an unfair advantage).

Breaking a rule = cheating (What is your definition of cheating - breaking a rule with relish?)

Why do the Pats get off so easy when they were actually CAUGHT cheating, but NOTHING has been PROVEN against Bonds (no matter what you believe) and he has been tarred and feathered?

MotionMan

It's against the rules to have your Jersey untucked or wearing certain unsanctioned branded clothes/hats. By your definition, breaking those rules would be cheating, which would be stupid.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Pretty sure steroid use was just as widespread, just as HGH is now. Personally don't care about HGH in football, the healing/recovery it offers being the primary reason. As far as the other tricks teams/coaches pull to get an edge, they will go on forever.

Al Davis once donned a costume and posed as a reporter to enter the visiting team's locker room after a game. He was looking for info, tips, that might help in their future head to head matchups. From what I have heard he is still an owner.
 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
17,124
12
81
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: MotionMan
Originally posted by: MotF Bane
Originally posted by: Phokus
What's so wrong with shoulder pads and contact...?

There are rules against suiting up in pads and contact before a certain date. It was during off-season "workouts", not during sanctioned training camp.

MotionMan

It was during mini-camp.

Yeah, which I call "off-season 'workouts'" for those who do not know much about the NFL.

MotionMan
 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
17,124
12
81
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: MotionMan
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: jjsole
Give the man credit where credit is do...his record has stood for over 35 years. That's beyond insane.

This is all about giving credit to where credit is due. past/present/future. This record has not been broken yet, but already he is disrespecting them. I hope the Pats continue to pound the hell out of their opponents.

That being said, the Pats games vs Pitt and Indy(playoffs) will be awesome games to watch.

There's nothing Shula could say that disrespects the Patriots in regards to cheating. The Pats disrespected themselves by getting caught cheating, and deserve all the flack they get.

He is implying that they should have an asterisk because they gained an unfair advantage. They did not get an unfair advantage. IMO, they got punished for a rule violation, not cheating.

Don't get me wrong, I hate cheaters as much as the next guy. IMO, bonds(yes lower case) deserves an asterisk because he cheated (gained an unfair advantage).

Breaking a rule = cheating (What is your definition of cheating - breaking a rule with relish?)

Why do the Pats get off so easy when they were actually CAUGHT cheating, but NOTHING has been PROVEN against Bonds (no matter what you believe) and he has been tarred and feathered?

MotionMan

It's against the rules to have your Jersey untucked or wearing certain unsanctioned branded clothes/hats. By your definition, breaking those rules would be cheating, which would be stupid.

If it gave you an advantage of some kind (did you click the link?), then, yes, having your shirt untucked would be cheating. (It is against NHL rules for a goalie to have baggy clothes because the clothes could help stop a shot. Thus, a goalie wearing baggy clothes is cheating in the NHL!).

Do you equate the Pats spying on the Jets to having a shirt untucked? Now THAT would be stupid.

MotionMan
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Originally posted by: MotionMan
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: MotionMan
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: jjsole
Give the man credit where credit is do...his record has stood for over 35 years. That's beyond insane.

This is all about giving credit to where credit is due. past/present/future. This record has not been broken yet, but already he is disrespecting them. I hope the Pats continue to pound the hell out of their opponents.

That being said, the Pats games vs Pitt and Indy(playoffs) will be awesome games to watch.

There's nothing Shula could say that disrespects the Patriots in regards to cheating. The Pats disrespected themselves by getting caught cheating, and deserve all the flack they get.

He is implying that they should have an asterisk because they gained an unfair advantage. They did not get an unfair advantage. IMO, they got punished for a rule violation, not cheating.

Don't get me wrong, I hate cheaters as much as the next guy. IMO, bonds(yes lower case) deserves an asterisk because he cheated (gained an unfair advantage).

Breaking a rule = cheating (What is your definition of cheating - breaking a rule with relish?)

Why do the Pats get off so easy when they were actually CAUGHT cheating, but NOTHING has been PROVEN against Bonds (no matter what you believe) and he has been tarred and feathered?

MotionMan

It's against the rules to have your Jersey untucked or wearing certain unsanctioned branded clothes/hats. By your definition, breaking those rules would be cheating, which would be stupid.

If it gave you an advantage of some kind (did you click the link?), then, yes, having your shirt untucked would be cheating. (It is against NHL rules for a goalie to have baggy clothes because the clothes could help stop a shot. Thus, a goalie wearing baggy clothes is cheating in the NHL!).

Do you equate the Pats spying on the Jets to having a shirt untucked? Now THAT would be stupid.

MotionMan

I think he is pointing out how trivial NE actions were, both are minor infractions compared to what else is going on league wide. At least they haven't tagged 50% of the refs for betting on the game.

 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
17,124
12
81
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: MotionMan
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: MotionMan
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: jjsole
Give the man credit where credit is do...his record has stood for over 35 years. That's beyond insane.

This is all about giving credit to where credit is due. past/present/future. This record has not been broken yet, but already he is disrespecting them. I hope the Pats continue to pound the hell out of their opponents.

That being said, the Pats games vs Pitt and Indy(playoffs) will be awesome games to watch.

There's nothing Shula could say that disrespects the Patriots in regards to cheating. The Pats disrespected themselves by getting caught cheating, and deserve all the flack they get.

He is implying that they should have an asterisk because they gained an unfair advantage. They did not get an unfair advantage. IMO, they got punished for a rule violation, not cheating.

Don't get me wrong, I hate cheaters as much as the next guy. IMO, bonds(yes lower case) deserves an asterisk because he cheated (gained an unfair advantage).

Breaking a rule = cheating (What is your definition of cheating - breaking a rule with relish?)

Why do the Pats get off so easy when they were actually CAUGHT cheating, but NOTHING has been PROVEN against Bonds (no matter what you believe) and he has been tarred and feathered?

MotionMan

It's against the rules to have your Jersey untucked or wearing certain unsanctioned branded clothes/hats. By your definition, breaking those rules would be cheating, which would be stupid.

If it gave you an advantage of some kind (did you click the link?), then, yes, having your shirt untucked would be cheating. (It is against NHL rules for a goalie to have baggy clothes because the clothes could help stop a shot. Thus, a goalie wearing baggy clothes is cheating in the NHL!).

Do you equate the Pats spying on the Jets to having a shirt untucked? Now THAT would be stupid.

MotionMan

I think he is pointing out how trivial NE actions were, both are minor infractions compared to what else is going on league wide. At least they haven't tagged 50% of the refs for betting on the game.

OK, so it was just a little bit of cheating (worth only $500,000 and a 1st round draft pick). Gotcha.

MotionMan
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
83
86
Can we stop the quoting string because you guys are cheating, or breaking forums rule.

BTW, I couldn't careless. They'll continue to own faces, while the faces continue to whine. Such is the circle of life.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
It is a widespread practice, hence the advantage is negated. Probably what happens with 99% of the other crap all teams pull. If anything it makes for a better game, forces players to produce better results in a more difficult environment.
 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
17,124
12
81
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Can we stop the quoting string because you guys are cheating, or breaking forums rule.

Seriously, is that a forum rule? (Where the heck are the forum rules?)

MotionMan

 

buck

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
12,273
4
81
Originally posted by: MotionMan
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: MotionMan
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: MotionMan
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: jjsole
Give the man credit where credit is do...his record has stood for over 35 years. That's beyond insane.

This is all about giving credit to where credit is due. past/present/future. This record has not been broken yet, but already he is disrespecting them. I hope the Pats continue to pound the hell out of their opponents.

That being said, the Pats games vs Pitt and Indy(playoffs) will be awesome games to watch.

There's nothing Shula could say that disrespects the Patriots in regards to cheating. The Pats disrespected themselves by getting caught cheating, and deserve all the flack they get.

He is implying that they should have an asterisk because they gained an unfair advantage. They did not get an unfair advantage. IMO, they got punished for a rule violation, not cheating.

Don't get me wrong, I hate cheaters as much as the next guy. IMO, bonds(yes lower case) deserves an asterisk because he cheated (gained an unfair advantage).

Breaking a rule = cheating (What is your definition of cheating - breaking a rule with relish?)

Why do the Pats get off so easy when they were actually CAUGHT cheating, but NOTHING has been PROVEN against Bonds (no matter what you believe) and he has been tarred and feathered?

MotionMan

It's against the rules to have your Jersey untucked or wearing certain unsanctioned branded clothes/hats. By your definition, breaking those rules would be cheating, which would be stupid.

If it gave you an advantage of some kind (did you click the link?), then, yes, having your shirt untucked would be cheating. (It is against NHL rules for a goalie to have baggy clothes because the clothes could help stop a shot. Thus, a goalie wearing baggy clothes is cheating in the NHL!).

Do you equate the Pats spying on the Jets to having a shirt untucked? Now THAT would be stupid.

MotionMan

I think he is pointing out how trivial NE actions were, both are minor infractions compared to what else is going on league wide. At least they haven't tagged 50% of the refs for betting on the game.

OK, so it was just a little bit of cheating (worth only $500,000 and a 1st round draft pick). Gotcha.

MotionMan

So all the Super Bowl teams that used this widely accepted tactic (among coaches) should have asterisks on their SB wins? I see where you are going and it just sounds like you want to argue. Especially when you think Bonds didnt use Steroids. In fact, if you believe that you are an idiot.
 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
17,124
12
81
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: MotionMan
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: MotionMan
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: MotionMan
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: jjsole
Give the man credit where credit is do...his record has stood for over 35 years. That's beyond insane.

This is all about giving credit to where credit is due. past/present/future. This record has not been broken yet, but already he is disrespecting them. I hope the Pats continue to pound the hell out of their opponents.

That being said, the Pats games vs Pitt and Indy(playoffs) will be awesome games to watch.

There's nothing Shula could say that disrespects the Patriots in regards to cheating. The Pats disrespected themselves by getting caught cheating, and deserve all the flack they get.

He is implying that they should have an asterisk because they gained an unfair advantage. They did not get an unfair advantage. IMO, they got punished for a rule violation, not cheating.

Don't get me wrong, I hate cheaters as much as the next guy. IMO, bonds(yes lower case) deserves an asterisk because he cheated (gained an unfair advantage).

Breaking a rule = cheating (What is your definition of cheating - breaking a rule with relish?)

Why do the Pats get off so easy when they were actually CAUGHT cheating, but NOTHING has been PROVEN against Bonds (no matter what you believe) and he has been tarred and feathered?

MotionMan

It's against the rules to have your Jersey untucked or wearing certain unsanctioned branded clothes/hats. By your definition, breaking those rules would be cheating, which would be stupid.

If it gave you an advantage of some kind (did you click the link?), then, yes, having your shirt untucked would be cheating. (It is against NHL rules for a goalie to have baggy clothes because the clothes could help stop a shot. Thus, a goalie wearing baggy clothes is cheating in the NHL!).

Do you equate the Pats spying on the Jets to having a shirt untucked? Now THAT would be stupid.

MotionMan

I think he is pointing out how trivial NE actions were, both are minor infractions compared to what else is going on league wide. At least they haven't tagged 50% of the refs for betting on the game.

OK, so it was just a little bit of cheating (worth only $500,000 and a 1st round draft pick). Gotcha.

MotionMan

So all the Super Bowl teams that used this widely accepted tactic (among coaches) should have asterisks on their SB wins? I see where you are going and it just sounds like you want to argue. Especially when you think Bonds didnt use Steroids. In fact, if you believe that you are an idiot.

I believe Bonds did use steroids. I was just pointing out that it has not been proven, yet he has already been slapped with an *.

The Pats were actually caught cheating, yet, "since everyone does it" (like steroids, BTW) or "it is not that big of a deal", everyone is ready to let them off the hook.

Another great argument I am seeing is that the Pats would have won without cheating since they are so good, so the cheating should be overlooked. Who is to say that Bonds, who was a pretty good ballplayer to begin with, would not have hit all those home runs without steroids?

I do not condone cheating, it just seems like there is a double-standard as between Bonds and the Pats.

(BTW, so far, in this thread I have been called stupid and an idiot. I do not think that is necessary. Please make your arguments and keep it civil.)

MotionMan
 

Reckoner

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
10,851
1
81
Fuck Schula. He knows the record is in real jeopardy and he'll do anything to diminish the Pats so his old team still comes out on top.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Who is to say that Bonds, who was a pretty good ballplayer to begin with, would not have hit all those home runs without steroids?

Look at his numbers throughout the normal "prime" years for a baseball player. Then look afterwards, when they should have declined not increased. Personally think he used HGH and other hormone treatments, as I would imagine most modern day athletes prefer.

You place too much emphasis on the Pats offense, it is common practice.

 

buck

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
12,273
4
81
Originally posted by: MotionMan
I believe Bonds did use steroids. I was just pointing out that it has not been proven, yet he has already been slapped with an *.

The Pats were actually caught cheating, yet, "since everyone does it" (like steroids, BTW) or "it is not that big of a deal", everyone is ready to let them off the hook.

Another great argument I am seeing is that the Pats would have won without cheating since they are so good, so the cheating should be overlooked. Who is to say that Bonds, who was a pretty good ballplayer to begin with, would not have hit all those home runs without steroids?

I do not condone cheating, it just seems like there is a double-standard as between Bonds and the Pats.

(BTW, so far, in this thread I have been called stupid and an idiot. I do not think that is necessary. Please make your arguments and keep it civil.)

MotionMan


Actually I only said "if you believed he didn't use roids, you were an idiot". However, you do, thus I don't think you are an idiot.
My point is that the Pats were continuing something most (if not all) NFL teams admittedly did the year before. A tactic much like watching old footage of teams. This is a far cry from using steroids, and really no one can help you if you dont understand the difference between the two.
I can't tell if you are trolling, bitter at the pats, or just confused as to what they really did.

If you can honestly tell us what advantage it would have given the Patriots this regular season, I will give you a cookie. The fact is that they do this for future seasons (or even playoffs) for info on the opponents. Much like watching old footage of teams. Do you not understand that most (if not all) teams did this very same thing last year? Were they all cheating?
 

buck

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
12,273
4
81
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Who is to say that Bonds, who was a pretty good ballplayer to begin with, would not have hit all those home runs without steroids?

Look at his numbers throughout the normal "prime" years for a baseball player. Then look afterwards, when they should have declined not increased. Personally think he used HGH and other hormone treatments, as I would imagine most modern day athletes prefer.

You place too much emphasis on the Pats offense, it is common practice.

You make the call.....
 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
17,124
12
81
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Who is to say that Bonds, who was a pretty good ballplayer to begin with, would not have hit all those home runs without steroids?

Look at his numbers throughout the normal "prime" years for a baseball player. Then look afterwards, when they should have declined not increased. Personally think he used HGH and other hormone treatments, as I would imagine most modern day athletes prefer.

You place too much emphasis on the Pats offense, it is common practice.

I am not emphasizing anything.

Clearly, it is unlikely that Bonds would have hit all those HRs without steroids, but there is no way to prove it.

The Pats provably cheated.

Why do the Pats get a free pass?

MotionMan
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
83
86
Originally posted by: MotionMan
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Who is to say that Bonds, who was a pretty good ballplayer to begin with, would not have hit all those home runs without steroids?

Look at his numbers throughout the normal "prime" years for a baseball player. Then look afterwards, when they should have declined not increased. Personally think he used HGH and other hormone treatments, as I would imagine most modern day athletes prefer.

You place too much emphasis on the Pats offense, it is common practice.

I am not emphasizing anything.

Clearly, it is unlikely that Bonds would have hit all those HRs without steroids, but there is no way to prove it.

The Pats provably cheated.

Why do the Pats get a free pass?

MotionMan

But that's the thing, they were PUNISHED according to the league. It's over, let it go. They kick ass, come to terms with that.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Who is to say that Bonds, who was a pretty good ballplayer to begin with, would not have hit all those home runs without steroids?

Look at his numbers throughout the normal "prime" years for a baseball player. Then look afterwards, when they should have declined not increased. Personally think he used HGH and other hormone treatments, as I would imagine most modern day athletes prefer.

You place too much emphasis on the Pats offense, it is common practice.

You make the call.....

Still don't think he used steroids, he could afford the better, healthier alternatives. The physical advantage it gave him in direct competition is far more troubling than some insight gleaned off intel.
 

buck

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
12,273
4
81
Originally posted by: MotionMan
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Who is to say that Bonds, who was a pretty good ballplayer to begin with, would not have hit all those home runs without steroids?

Look at his numbers throughout the normal "prime" years for a baseball player. Then look afterwards, when they should have declined not increased. Personally think he used HGH and other hormone treatments, as I would imagine most modern day athletes prefer.

You place too much emphasis on the Pats offense, it is common practice.

I am not emphasizing anything.

Clearly, it is unlikely that Bonds would have hit all those HRs without steroids, but there is no way to prove it.

The Pats provably cheated.

Why do the Pats get a free pass?

MotionMan


They were punished for breaking a rule that was just put into place. There was no free pass.