Shouting teen shot with stun gun, dies next day

[Dean]

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
They warned him, then shot him... No overreaction. If you ignore the police and get hurt, it is your fault.

B F'ing S. We had a situation here a few months ago where state troopers shot and killed an innocent man who was mentally handicapped. He was walking on the shoulder of a highway when a passing motorist called the police and said he looked like a suspect the police were hunting. Several troopers drove up and surround the guy with guns drawn and told him to layon the ground. He did. Then they told him to remove his hands from his pockets and he did not. Finally, one of them just shot the guy with a shotgun while he was laying on the ground making no agressive movements... he just wouldn't take his hands out of his pockets. Turns out the hands in his pockets was something he did when he got nervous... he was mentally handicapped for crying out loud!

When cops sign up for the job they must assume a certain amount of risk. IMO, they should do everything in their power to prevent harm from coming to innocent people or using excessive force. In this situation you have cops who couldn't even physically subdue a 130 person? Even after hitting him with the taser the first time? WTF? Are you serious? That's just embarrassingly pathetic.

QFT

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: Andyb23
Obviously you've never been involved with the cops.

Anyways this is pretty sad. But according to Amnesty International there have been like 153 deaths from taser guns in the past few years.

American police consistently stand out as the absolute worst among first world countries.

I'm quite amazed at the sheep here though. Its amazing how blindingly cooperative some of you people are.

153 Deaths from how many uses and how does that compare to deaths with all other apprehension methods (by hand, billy clubs, guns drawn, pepper spray mace) and compare that to officer deaths using the same apprenhension methods.

The fact that American officers are worst among first world countries could it be related to the fact that Americans are among the most selfish, self-serving, egocentric, self-entitled people in the first world.

Hardly sheep - but it's also amazing how combative some of you people are (see previous paragraph).

is it 153 deaths caused by it or 153 deaths where it is a factor? only stats i have found say it has caused 39 deaths.

 

[Andyb23]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: Andyb23
Obviously you've never been involved with the cops.

Anyways this is pretty sad. But according to Amnesty International there have been like 153 deaths from taser guns in the past few years.

American police consistently stand out as the absolute worst among first world countries.

I'm quite amazed at the sheep here though. Its amazing how blindingly cooperative some of you people are.

153 Deaths from how many uses and how does that compare to deaths with all other apprehension methods (by hand, billy clubs, guns drawn, pepper spray mace) and compare that to officer deaths using the same apprenhension methods.

The fact that American officers are worst among first world countries could it be related to the fact that Americans are among the most selfish, self-serving, egocentric, self-entitled people in the first world.

Hardly sheep - but it's also amazing how combative some of you people are (see previous paragraph).

I'm not combatitive I've been tackled and beaten by police officers simply for walking away from them when they were fvcking with me.

Police officers - the vast majority like the power they hold over the population. The armaments and universal acclaim they receive makes US police even more dangerous.

And as for the person doubting American police and brutality and corruption go look up some statistics, they are all over the web.

 

[Jahee]

Originally posted by: waggy


heh a few years ago (ok maybe 13?) a cop around http://www.gallaudet.edu/">http://www.gallaudet.edu/</a>Gauledat shot a deaf guy because he would not stop walking.

they came up behind him and ordered to stop. when he wouldnt the fired on him.

you would think around there they would have taken more care..

Thats what im talking about, "shoot first ask questions later" mentality. its not right and people with that frame of mind shouldnt be police. i bet that cop didnt loose any sleep over it either! :roll:

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: Andyb23

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: Andyb23
Obviously you've never been involved with the cops.

Anyways this is pretty sad. But according to Amnesty International there have been like 153 deaths from taser guns in the past few years.

American police consistently stand out as the absolute worst among first world countries.

I'm quite amazed at the sheep here though. Its amazing how blindingly cooperative some of you people are.

153 Deaths from how many uses and how does that compare to deaths with all other apprehension methods (by hand, billy clubs, guns drawn, pepper spray mace) and compare that to officer deaths using the same apprenhension methods.

The fact that American officers are worst among first world countries could it be related to the fact that Americans are among the most selfish, self-serving, egocentric, self-entitled people in the first world.

Hardly sheep - but it's also amazing how combative some of you people are (see previous paragraph).

I'm not combatitive I've been tackled and beaten by police officers simply for walking away from them when they were fvcking with me.

Police officers - the vast majority like the power they hold over the population. The armaments and universal acclaim they receive makes US police even more dangerous.

And as for the person doubting American police and brutality and corruption go look up some statistics, they are all over the web.

they were "fvcking with you"? explain the situation. this should be good.

 

[Garet Jax]

Originally posted by: Andyb23

I'm not combatitive I've been tackled and beaten by police officers simply for walking away from them when they were fvcking with me.

Police officers - the vast majority like the power they hold over the population. The armaments and universal acclaim they receive makes US police even more dangerous.

And as for the person doubting American police and brutality and corruption go look up some statistics, they are all over the web.

Always two sides to every story.

But giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'm sure that a certain percentage of police abuse their power (just like every other industry) and I'm sorry if you happened to run into a group of them. But also recognize that when police give you a command, there is very little negotiation room at that time. They are out to protect themselves above all else.

I've had multiple run-ins with the police, but have never been "ruffed-up", arrested or otherwise treated poorly. At times, I needed to be put in my place and they were the ones to do it. I'm sure if I demonstrated a different attitude, then things would have gone much differently.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Andyb23

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: Andyb23
Obviously you've never been involved with the cops.

Anyways this is pretty sad. But according to Amnesty International there have been like 153 deaths from taser guns in the past few years.

American police consistently stand out as the absolute worst among first world countries.

I'm quite amazed at the sheep here though. Its amazing how blindingly cooperative some of you people are.

153 Deaths from how many uses and how does that compare to deaths with all other apprehension methods (by hand, billy clubs, guns drawn, pepper spray mace) and compare that to officer deaths using the same apprenhension methods.

The fact that American officers are worst among first world countries could it be related to the fact that Americans are among the most selfish, self-serving, egocentric, self-entitled people in the first world.

Hardly sheep - but it's also amazing how combative some of you people are (see previous paragraph).

I'm not combatitive I've been tackled and beaten by police officers simply for walking away from them when they were fvcking with me.

Police officers - the vast majority like the power they hold over the population. The armaments and universal acclaim they receive makes US police even more dangerous.

And as for the person doubting American police and brutality and corruption go look up some statistics, they are all over the web.

hahahah they were "fvcking with you" and you walked away? WTF is wrong with you? another rebel without a clue.

 

[Jahee]

Originally posted by: Xyo II
No matter what the officers do, there is always going to be some risk involved with subduing someone, smarta*ses. He put up a fight, and the officers did what they could to solve it peacefully. Tackling the kid forcefully onto concrete? Yeah that has no risk for injury. :disgust:

And 180+ "related" deaths over 5 years? (the most generous of the figures)

officer fatality rate has declined to an average of 162 per year during the past decade.

There will always be cases of officer brutality and bad decisions, but this isn't one of them. It's just too bad that he was so young, and didn't cooperate.

I think it was on grass, not sure though. and yea if i was an officer i would much rather that than electric shock him, just my view, electric shocks can be extremely dangerous, as proved! i dont think this is an issue of police brutality, just eager assumptions made and maybe an element of them wanting to try their new toys.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
They warned him, then shot him... No overreaction. If you ignore the police and get hurt, it is your fault.

B F'ing S. We had a situation here a few months ago where state troopers shot and killed an innocent man who was mentally handicapped. He was walking on the shoulder of a highway when a passing motorist called the police and said he looked like a suspect the police were hunting. Several troopers drove up and surround the guy with guns drawn and told him to layon the ground. He did. Then they told him to remove his hands from his pockets and he did not. Finally, one of them just shot the guy with a shotgun while he was laying on the ground making no agressive movements... he just wouldn't take his hands out of his pockets. Turns out the hands in his pockets was something he did when he got nervous... he was mentally handicapped for crying out loud!

When cops sign up for the job they must assume a certain amount of risk. IMO, they should do everything in their power to prevent harm from coming to innocent people or using excessive force. In this situation you have cops who couldn't even physically subdue a 130 person? Even after hitting him with the taser the first time? WTF? Are you serious? That's just embarrassingly pathetic.

"B F'ing S. We had a situation here a few months ago where state troopers shot and killed an innocent man who was mentally handicapped."

Was he shot by a taser? If not, your whole story is irrelevant.

" In this situation you have cops who couldn't even physically subdue a 130 person? "

Again, if they were following procedure, they were doing their job.. you can't expect them to go against procedure because random guy on the internet disagrees with standard police procedure.

 

[Jahee]

Police officers - the vast majority like the power they hold over the population. The armaments and universal acclaim they receive makes US police even more dangerous.

I agree with that, i think thats half if not the majority of the problem.

 

[Garet Jax]

Originally posted by: Jahee
I think it was on grass, not sure though. and yea if i was an officer i would much rather that than electric shock him, just my view, electric shocks can be extremely dangerous, as proved! i dont think this is an issue of police brutality, just eager assumptions made and maybe an element of them wanting to try their new toys.

Jahee, it is probably safer for the person being arrested to be tackled and subdued physically (even that is questionable because of the police violence we have seen), but it is not safer for you as the arresting officer.

You are completely dismissing the possiblity of the other risks the person being arrested poses to you as the arresting officer. I have talked first hand to officers about this (my brother in law is one and a neighbour on my street is one) and this is one of their most important thoughts when arresting someone.

 

[Jahee]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9


"B F'ing S. We had a situation here a few months ago where state troopers shot and killed an innocent man who was mentally handicapped."

Was he shot by a taser? If not, your whole story is irrelevant.

" In this situation you have cops who couldn't even physically subdue a 130 person? "

Again, if they were following procedure, they were doing their job.. you can't expect them to go against procedure because random guy on the internet disagrees with standard police procedure.

the story isnt irrelevant, its the same hastiness to use excessive force that we're debating

your second comment is a little immature, there are procedures yes but does that mean police should follow them blindly and apply the exact same procedure to all situations?

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: Jahee

Originally posted by: shadow9d9


"B F'ing S. We had a situation here a few months ago where state troopers shot and killed an innocent man who was mentally handicapped."

Was he shot by a taser? If not, your whole story is irrelevant.

" In this situation you have cops who couldn't even physically subdue a 130 person? "

Again, if they were following procedure, they were doing their job.. you can't expect them to go against procedure because random guy on the internet disagrees with standard police procedure.

the story isnt irrelevant, its the same hastiness to use excessive force that we're debating

your second comment is a little immature, there are procedures yes but does that mean police should follow them blindly and apply the exact same procedure to all situations?

yes, because the day you don't is the day you die because you think that 16 year old kid is harmless, but is actually a gang member and unloads his pistol into you. thats why they have procedures in the 1st place.

 

[rivan]

Originally posted by: yllus
*shrugs* Sorry kid, you brought it on yourself.

(Assuming he really did become combatative enough to warrant the stun.)

 

[Stuxnet]

I'm going to pop back in here and offer this up:

I've known a number of people before and after they've joined the police force. There is something about the Academy that changes a person. What were once very friendly, compassionate individuals are now very bitter, sour, elitists. They're still my friends, and I admire the task they've taken on, but for every "pig-hating passive aggressive citizen", there is an elitist police officer poised behind the shield, waiting for an opportunity to prove him right.

The problems between the police and the public are the result of a natural distrust between the two. I would almost say it's a healthy distrust. The fact is, cops need to be kept in check. Another fact is that the public needs to be kept in check. After pondering the story from the OP, I do believe the cops went too far. I'm not going to even try to explain myself. There are too many passionate opinions on the subject, and most people - like I said earlier - are far more interested in being right than they are in seeking the truth.

Carry on.

 

[Jahee]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: Jahee
I think it was on grass, not sure though. and yea if i was an officer i would much rather that than electric shock him, just my view, electric shocks can be extremely dangerous, as proved! i dont think this is an issue of police brutality, just eager assumptions made and maybe an element of them wanting to try their new toys.

Jahee, it is probably safer for the person being arrested to be tackled and subdued physically (even that is questionable because of the police violence we have seen), but it is not safer for you.

You are completely dismissing the possiblity of the other risks the person being arrested poses to you as the arresting officer. I have talked first hand to officers about this (my brother in law is one and a neighbour on my street is one) and this is one of their most important thoughts when arresting someone.

i do see your point and agree totally with that, there are many unknowns that the officers have to appreciate, i guess its just weighing up the danger to you and to the person and coming to a solution, on this occasion i dont think the solution they came to was appropriate

 

[RagingBITCH]

Oh well. No loss.

 

[rivan]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: PottedMeat
I think I'd rather be hit with pepper spray than shocked

That's the point - they shouldn't be pleasurable or even tolerable. If you have a heart condition, then the onus is on you not to push the cops into using the stun gun. It is not the cop's responsibility.

Nonsense. Cops should be armed with fresh daisies with which they subdue the crack addict with a .44. SWAT teams should storm houses behind a massive assault of Hallmark cards and gifts of kittens, each eqipped with their own cute ball of yarn.

 

[altonb1]

Originally posted by: waggy
cnn

JERSEYVILLE, Illinois (AP) -- A teenager carrying a Bible and shouting "I want Jesus" was shot twice with a police stun gun and later died at a St. Louis hospital, authorities said.

In a statement obtained Tuesday by The Associated Press, police in Jerseyville, about 40 miles north of St. Louis, said 17-year-old Roger Holyfield would not acknowledge officers who approached him and he continued yelling, "I want Jesus."

Police tried to calm the teen, but Holyfield became combative, according to the statement. Officers fired the stun gun at him after he ignored their warnings, then fired again when he continued struggling, police said.

Holyfield was flown to St. Louis' Cardinal Glennon Hospital after the confrontation Saturday; he died there Sunday, police said.

An autopsy was planned for Tuesday.

The statement expressed sympathy to Holyfield's family but said city and police officials would not discuss the matter further.

Calls Tuesday to Jerseyville Police Chief Brad Blackorby were not immediately returned. The department has been using stun guns for about five months, according to the statement.

In a report released in March, international human rights group Amnesty International said it had logged at least 156 deaths across the country in the previous five years related to police stun guns.

The rise in deaths accompanies a marked increase in the number of U.S. law enforcement agencies employing devices made by Taser International Inc. of Scottsdale, Arizona. About 1,000 of the nation's 18,000 police agencies used Tasers in 2001; more than 7,000 departments had them last year, according to a government study.

Police had used Tasers more than 70,000 times as of last year, Congress' Government Accountability Office said.

Amnesty International has urged police departments to suspend the use of Tasers pending more study. Taser International said the group's count was flawed and falsely linked deaths to Taser use when there has been no such official conclusion.

The city of St. Louis also drew unwanted attention for crime this week when it was named the most dangerous U.S. city by Morgan Quitno Press. The ranking looked only at crime within St. Louis city limits, not its metro area.






thats nice of the cops! helped the kid see Jesus!

:roll:

I actually found that quip to be quite funny.

 

[eits]

it seems like maybe the cops might have used too much voltage on the kid...

i think cops should start informing people that stun guns can kill, so people shouldn't struggle. it's kinda like informed consent.

 

[Garet Jax]

Originally posted by: jbourne77
I'm going to pop back in here and offer this up:

I've known a number of people before and after they've joined the police force. There is something about the Academy that changes a person. What were once very friendly, compassionate individuals are now very bitter, sour, elitists. They're still my friends, and I admire the task they've taken on, but for every "pig-hating passive aggressive citizen", there is an elitist police officer poised behind the shield, waiting for an opportunity to prove him right.

The problems between the police and the public are the result of a natural distrust between the two. I would almost say it's a healthy distrust. The fact is, cops need to be kept in check. Another fact is that the public needs to be kept in check. After pondering the story from the OP, I do believe the cops went too far. I'm not going to even try to explain myself. There are too many passionate opinions on the subject, and most people - like I said earlier - are far more interested in being right than they are in seeking the truth.

Carry on.

I have to mostly agree here. As I said my brother in law is a cop and I have talked very candidly to him about this. I don't believe its the Academy that changes them though - it is the years of arresting people only to see they get out on some stupid technicality. It is the years of having the law and procedure stuffed in their faces by the criminals who are clearly breaking the law, but can't be prosecuted because they are using the law to protect them.

A lot of police officers see the futility in their jobs and this affects them.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: jbourne77
I'm going to pop back in here and offer this up:

I've known a number of people before and after they've joined the police force. There is something about the Academy that changes a person. What were once very friendly, compassionate individuals are now very bitter, sour, elitists. They're still my friends, and I admire the task they've taken on, but for every "pig-hating passive aggressive citizen", there is an elitist police officer poised behind the shield, waiting for an opportunity to prove him right.

The problems between the police and the public are the result of a natural distrust between the two. I would almost say it's a healthy distrust. The fact is, cops need to be kept in check. Another fact is that the public needs to be kept in check. After pondering the story from the OP, I do believe the cops went too far. I'm not going to even try to explain myself. There are too many passionate opinions on the subject, and most people - like I said earlier - are far more interested in being right than they are in seeking the truth.

Carry on.

i'm not trying to be right (yes i know that comment was directed at me because you said it earlier). i was trying to make you understand what i was saying. waggy seems to have got it, but you still don't. besides, you're just as interested in trying to be right as well.

 

[PrinceofWands]

It's a tragedy that he died from less than lethal force, but the alternative was to shoot him so he would have died anyway. If you don't want to die, don't fight the cops or anyone else. Your right to live ends when you threaten the safety of another person without just cause.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: jbourne77
I'm going to pop back in here and offer this up:

I've known a number of people before and after they've joined the police force. There is something about the Academy that changes a person. What were once very friendly, compassionate individuals are now very bitter, sour, elitists. They're still my friends, and I admire the task they've taken on, but for every "pig-hating passive aggressive citizen", there is an elitist police officer poised behind the shield, waiting for an opportunity to prove him right.

The problems between the police and the public are the result of a natural distrust between the two. I would almost say it's a healthy distrust. The fact is, cops need to be kept in check. Another fact is that the public needs to be kept in check. After pondering the story from the OP, I do believe the cops went too far. I'm not going to even try to explain myself. There are too many passionate opinions on the subject, and most people - like I said earlier - are far more interested in being right than they are in seeking the truth.

Carry on.

I have to mostly agree here. As I said my brother in law is a cop and I have talked very candidly to him about this. I don't believe its the Academy that changes them though - it is the years of arresting people only to see they get out on some stupid technicality. It is the years of having the law and procedure stuffed in their faces by the criminals who are clearly breaking the law, but can't be prosecuted because they are using the law to protect them.

A lot of police officers see the futility in their jobs and this affects them.

not only that but the things people do to each other. i can't imagine having to deal with stuff like that all the time.
someone posted a link or copied and pasted a message from another board that was written by a police officer that really got into this type of stuff. i wish i knew what thread it was in because it would be really fitting for this thread.

 

[Jahee]

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: jbourne77
I'm going to pop back in here and offer this up:

I've known a number of people before and after they've joined the police force. There is something about the Academy that changes a person. What were once very friendly, compassionate individuals are now very bitter, sour, elitists. They're still my friends, and I admire the task they've taken on, but for every "pig-hating passive aggressive citizen", there is an elitist police officer poised behind the shield, waiting for an opportunity to prove him right.

The problems between the police and the public are the result of a natural distrust between the two. I would almost say it's a healthy distrust. The fact is, cops need to be kept in check. Another fact is that the public needs to be kept in check. After pondering the story from the OP, I do believe the cops went too far. I'm not going to even try to explain myself. There are too many passionate opinions on the subject, and most people - like I said earlier - are far more interested in being right than they are in seeking the truth.

Carry on.

i'm not trying to be right (yes i know that comment was directed at me because you said it earlier). i was trying to make you understand what i was saying. waggy seems to have got it, but you still don't. besides, you're just as interested in trying to be right as well.

i dont think anyone here is trying to say never use tasers, i myself think sometimes their use is justified, just not so hastily when it seems there are other options...