Shoulder Day

onlyCOpunk

Platinum Member
May 25, 2003
2,532
1
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So I was running through my shoulder day today, and I realized that I'm absolutely tired of it. I'll give a rundown of what I do...

DB Shoulder Press
Front Lateral
Back Lateral
Side Lateral
Upright Rowing
Shrug

Among a couple other things I throw in, but aren't related to shoulders.

But I'm so sick of these laterals, they are so time consuming and tedious, not to mention the progress I make on them is slow.

Does anyone have any suggestions that would wrap the laterals into one, or something just as effective that isn't as tedious?
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,654
6,532
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whatever you do keep some type of shoulder presses in there, the upright row, and some variation of shruggs.

if you are up for a challenge, try standing barbell shoulder presses. those are tough.

upright row is pretty important IMO so i'd keep that.

for shrugs change it up. sometimes do barbell, sometimes do dumbell. also sometimes i'll do reverse shruggs on the smith machine, where you hold the bar behind your back and do shrugs. hits the area pretty nicely.

the lateral raises really aren't as important as the others IMO and are more isolation. typically i will just do the side lateral raises since the upright row hits the same area as the front ones do.

personally i think back lateral raises are worthless and they are hit secondary while doing various other shoulder exercises. i guess they are good to throw in for some variation though.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
62
91
Hang clean and press + narrow grip upright row makes mouths happy. I also like a few cable rows and then maybe even a cable press at the very end.
 

RESmonkey

Diamond Member
May 6, 2007
4,818
2
0
Want to really hit your shoulders? Do some jerk splits, and slowly bring the bar back down (basically, a negative barbell military). Just 5-6 reps or less is nuff for 3+ sets. Next few days, you won't be able to use your shoulder. Of course, this is assuming you go heavy with jerk splits (need strong legs).
 

bignateyk

Lifer
Apr 22, 2002
11,288
7
0
1) Press (Standing, with barbell)
2) Cleans
3) profit?

Thats really all I do for my shoulders specifically. I figure I hit them enough with my other exercises.
 
Mar 22, 2002
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Originally posted by: KoolDrew
Stop thinking in terms of body parts and start thinking in terms of exercises.

I don't quite know how that statement makes much sense. You have to consciously decide on a muscle group before you decide on an exercise. You can't just say "I like lat pulls so I'll do them every day." Can you elaborate? I'm a little bit in the dark. Thanks :)
 

KoolDrew

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
10,226
7
81
The OP has the mindset "Oh, today's shoulder day, so let's throw a bunch of exercises in to hit my shoulders from every angle possible," which is the problem with most peoples routines. Rather than concentrating on getting stronger in the main compound lifts, they throw in a ton of exercises trying to hit every muscle group from every angle possible. In this case it's shoulders. The next day he may do the same thing for chest, back, legs, or w/e. If you get stronger in your military press, bench press, rows, deadlifts, squats, etc. you will grow given sufficient calories are provided. So a routine should be based around those, and concentration should be on getting stronger in those lifts. Progressive overload on the main compound lifts makes you grow, not throwing six exercises at your shoulders in one day, and then returning a week later doing the same thing. This is yet another reason why the typical 1x a week crap is just that... crap. Emphasis is placed on bodyparts rather than the lifts themselves.

Really what I am trying to say is pretty much the same reason the Starting Strength routine is so effective. Concentration is just on getting stronger in the squat, deadlift, bench, military press, and clean. Anything after that is accessory and should be treated as such.
 

onlyCOpunk

Platinum Member
May 25, 2003
2,532
1
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The thing is I do compound exercises. And "shoulder day" is the only day when my routine involves these accessory exercises. Which is why I am looking for some alternative to them. Yet if I didn't do them then my time spent in the gym that day is short, too short especially when I still have the energy, time, and want to do more. Granted I do about 40 minutes of cardio afterwards, I've skipped them once and I just felt that I hadn't done all that I could, I didn't push myself as hard as I could.
 

KoolDrew

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
10,226
7
81
The thing is I do compound exercises.

Doing them is one thing. Placing emphasis on them is another. You have a whole day dedicated to shoulders, clearly showing emphasis is not being placed where it should.

I've skipped them once and I just felt that I hadn't done all that I could, I didn't push myself as hard as I could.

More volume is not the answer. This is another problem (in addition to the countless other ones I've mentioned in other topics) I have with the typical 1x a week approach. Since people are working on a single muscle group that day they feel the only way they get a good workout is by adding more volume, by either adding more repetitons of a givin exercise or by adding more exercises.

As everybody already knows, our bodies suck at doing two things at once. Gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time is just one example. One most people don't think about is storing glycogen and building muscle tissue, which genrally do not occur at the same time. If there's a glycogen shortage that's going to be your bodies first priority - restoring glycogen, not building muscle tissue.

What does that have to do with anything? Well, the higher the volume, the more you deplete glycogen stores. So after such training your body repletes glycogen first, and works on protein synthesis second. With low volume, you can stimulate increases in protein synthesis but without depleting glycogen. This is why low volume, heavy weight, and more freuquency (think PL-style fullbody training) is so effective. Low reps don't deplete nearly as much glycogen since you rely more on the ATP/CP energy pathway.

Also, for hypertrophy to occur you want ribosome and mRNA activity to be elevated and STAY elevated in the target muscles. Training a muscle group once a week does not accomplish this as research has clearly shown they (along with increased protein synthesis) return to normal in about 36 hours, which means it's best to train each bodypart probably about every 48 hours (since every 36 hours would mean training different times of the day). Increased frequency would obviously mean a decrease in volume per training session as well.

Those, in addition to reasons I've outlined in the past, is why the typical 1x a week bodybuilding routine is not the greatest idea. The only exception is the genetic elite with a crap load of drugs (aka bodybuilders), since they are able to store glycogen and synthesize protein well, meaning they can do a lot more volume per session and get a lot more out of it. For the average individual without drugs, they'd see much better results on a routine with less volume and higher frequncy, with emphasis on compound lifts.

This is why routines like Starting Strength, Bill Starr's 5x5 or even a solid upper/lower split are so effective. Low volume, high frequency training optimizes tension overload (which is different than fatigue), ensures incoming calories go towards protein synthesis, and ensure mRNA and ribosome levels are elevated and STAY elevated.
 
Mar 22, 2002
10,483
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Got it, KoolDrew. After this bodybuilding routine, I too plan to work on my compounds movements. I find it silly that people work each muscle group once a week, especially if they're not doing a program like mine. I think it's silly that I'm even doing it, but it's not for much longer and my strength gains are fair enough :) onlyCOpunk, I would consider having several upper body routines (that work pretty much everything) and several lower body routines to mix it up every day. You can incorporate bench, all types of cleans, military press, etc and they'll all hit the shoulders hard. Try to steer away from the "each muscle group once per week" mentality.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,654
6,532
126
Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Got it, KoolDrew. After this bodybuilding routine, I too plan to work on my compounds movements. I find it silly that people work each muscle group once a week, especially if they're not doing a program like mine. I think it's silly that I'm even doing it, but it's not for much longer and my strength gains are fair enough :) onlyCOpunk, I would consider having several upper body routines (that work pretty much everything) and several lower body routines to mix it up every day. You can incorporate bench, all types of cleans, military press, etc and they'll all hit the shoulders hard. Try to steer away from the "each muscle group once per week" mentality.

i've been doing the each muscle group once a week for over 2 years now and have seen the most progress i've ever seen in my history of lifting over the past 2 years.

different strokes for different folks.
 
Mar 22, 2002
10,483
32
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Originally posted by: purbeast0
Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Got it, KoolDrew. After this bodybuilding routine, I too plan to work on my compounds movements. I find it silly that people work each muscle group once a week, especially if they're not doing a program like mine. I think it's silly that I'm even doing it, but it's not for much longer and my strength gains are fair enough :) onlyCOpunk, I would consider having several upper body routines (that work pretty much everything) and several lower body routines to mix it up every day. You can incorporate bench, all types of cleans, military press, etc and they'll all hit the shoulders hard. Try to steer away from the "each muscle group once per week" mentality.

i've been doing the each muscle group once a week for over 2 years now and have seen the most progress i've ever seen in my history of lifting over the past 2 years.

different strokes for different folks.

Right, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has been the absolute best possible progress. On top of that, programs that do the each muscle group once a week thing often only incorporate legs once a week. That's my biggest program with it. Your legs constitute the biggest muscles in your body. They're also 50% of you. I figure you should probably work them half the time too.
 

thespeakerbox

Platinum Member
Nov 19, 2004
2,654
0
71
Go heavier on the lateral raises. Theres not reason why you should see slow growth if you're really pushing hard. (unless you've already peaked your genetics)

Add in some Arnold presses with heavy waits. Concentrate on good form- you don't want to screw up your joints. Ditch the rowing, its not back day.

Why do you just concentrate on shoulders for a whole day? Do it on the same day as chest. Reap the extra benefit. I wouldn't do dedicated shoulders unless i was really disproportionate or a pro builder.
 

jiggahertz

Golden Member
Apr 7, 2005
1,532
0
76
Originally posted by: purbeast0
whatever you do keep some type of shoulder presses in there, the upright row, and some variation of shruggs.

if you are up for a challenge, try standing barbell shoulder presses. those are tough.

upright row is pretty important IMO so i'd keep that.

for shrugs change it up. sometimes do barbell, sometimes do dumbell. also sometimes i'll do reverse shruggs on the smith machine, where you hold the bar behind your back and do shrugs. hits the area pretty nicely.

the lateral raises really aren't as important as the others IMO and are more isolation. typically i will just do the side lateral raises since the upright row hits the same area as the front ones do.

personally i think back lateral raises are worthless and they are hit secondary while doing various other shoulder exercises. i guess they are good to throw in for some variation though.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with this 100%. I hit my shoulders indirectly a lot on my other days so shoulder days are pretty light. DB shoulder press, upright rows, side lateral raises and rear lat raises occasionally. I do traps on back day.
 

onlyCOpunk

Platinum Member
May 25, 2003
2,532
1
0
Originally posted by: thespeakerbox
Go heavier on the lateral raises. Theres not reason why you should see slow growth if you're really pushing hard. (unless you've already peaked your genetics)

Add in some Arnold presses with heavy waits. Concentrate on good form- you don't want to screw up your joints. Ditch the rowing, its not back day.

Why do you just concentrate on shoulders for a whole day? Do it on the same day as chest. Reap the extra benefit. I wouldn't do dedicated shoulders unless i was really disproportionate or a pro builder.

Well my routine was designed for me a by a bodybuilder, so that probably why it's so isolated.

But I do back stuff on the day I do my chest, adding in shoulder stuff would make me be at the gym for another hour, which I can't afford.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,654
6,532
126
Originally posted by: thespeakerbox
1hr for shoulders. Talk about over training. You on celltech too?

where does he say 1 hour :confused:

also what is with the celltech comment? that is the only type of creatine i've ever used that gives me any results, and i'm currently on it. it's helped me gain over 30lbs since august and increased strength drastically.
 

KoolDrew

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
10,226
7
81
But I do back stuff on the day I do my chest, adding in shoulder stuff would make me be at the gym for another hour, which I can't afford.

Stop doing so much unecessary shoulder work and work on getting stronger on your pressing movements. You will get better results and won't be spending nearly as much time in the gym. Problem solved.

Seriously, if you would be spending that much time in the gym you're priorities are definitely not where they should be and your routine is severely flawed.

where does he say 1 hour

...

adding in shoulder stuff would make me be at the gym for another hour, which I can't afford.

also what is with the celltech comment? that is the only type of creatine i've ever used that gives me any results

I really hope this is a joke...