Should we only use Gold rated PSUs?

[UsandThem]

The updated (current models) CX models are a pretty solid units for the money.

It won't win any performance awards, but it should be reliable (5 year warranty now compared to 3 for the old design).

 

[dainthomas]

The updated (current models) CX models are a pretty solid units for the money.

It won't win any performance awards, but it should be reliable (5 year warranty now compared to 3 for the old design).

Yep, this model has the five year warranty. I feel a little better.

 

[UsandThem]

Yep, this model has the five year warranty. I feel a little better.

You'll be fine. It is well built, and has all the important safety features, and Corsair is a large and respected brand. It's definitely not a POS insufficient unit that comes from Deer, Leadman, or Diablotek.

 

[whm1974]

You'll be fine. It is well built, and has all the important safety features, and Corsair is a large and respected brand. It's definitely not a POS insufficient unit that comes from Deer, Leadman, or Diablotek.

Are those companies still in business?

 

[UsandThem]

Are those companies still in business?

I'm not sure. I think I saw that Diablotek was going out of business a few years ago, but since I never would even consider buying their products, I haven't seen any of their units in years.

There are still several crappy brands still around for sure though. Ones like Logisys, Apevia, Raidmax, and CoolMax. And sometimes there's even the "mystery" units like this:

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIAH3K8R62892&ignorebbr=1

 

[whm1974]

I'm not sure. I think I saw that Diablotek was going out of business a few years ago, but since I never would even consider buying their products, I haven't seen any of their units in years.

There are still several crappy brands still around for sure though. Ones like Logisys, Apevia, Raidmax, and CoolMax. And sometimes there's even the "mystery" units like this:

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIAH3K8R62892&ignorebbr=1

Due to being bitten by the Deer PSU that came with the case of the first system I built, I no will longer use PSUs bundled with cases unless they are a decent brand. And I will most certainly
will refuse use an unkown brand at all even if I gotten it for free.

Speaking bundled PSUs, how do you feel about Rosewill PSU that come with their cases? I'm thinking that they may be fine with lower end and lower wattage parts.

 

[UsandThem]

Speaking bundled PSUs, how do you feel about Rosewill PSU that come with their cases? I'm thinking that they may be fine with lower end and lower wattage parts.

It seems like Rosewill units are bit hit or miss on quality. A few of their units rate pretty decently in reviews, but there seems to be a lot of 1-star reviews of them dying after 6-18 months.

For PSUs, I generally stick with the "big 3": EVGA, Seasonic, and Corsair. Although if the price was right (and the reviews were good), I would also consider units from companies like FSP, Be Quiet, and possibly BitFenix. Although out of those 3, only FSP makes any of their units.

But if the price difference is only a few bucks, I would likely stay with the "big 3". I just want to be very confident that if the PSU would blow for any reason, that the quality and safety features were there to prevent it from taking out other components.

 

[whm1974]

It seems like Rosewill units are bit hit or miss on quality. A few of their units rate pretty decently in reviews, but there seems to be a lot of 1-star reviews of them dying after 6-18 months.

For PSUs, I generally stick with the "big 3": EVGA, Seasonic, and Corsair. Although if the price was right (and the reviews were good), I would also consider units from companies like FSP, Be Quiet, and possibly BitFenix. Although out of those 3, only FSP makes any of their units.

But if the price difference is only a few bucks, I would likely stay with the "big 3". I just want to be very confident that if the PSU would blow for any reason, that the quality and safety features were there to prevent it from taking out other components.

Speaking of the Big Three, I notice that the builds i put together on www.pcpartpicker.com all use less than 300W, making me feel really stupid by having a 650W PSU in this build:
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/ksLpw6
And that build only requires 274W. However 430W/450W Gold PSUs seem hard to find in comparison to 550w Golds which are almost always near the same price.

How much wattage should PSUs have anyway?

 

[UsandThem]

How much wattage should PSUs have anyway?

In my opinion, enough to power what is needed.

Although, as long as the unit is big enough to keep the max load percentage around 80% of the unit's total output, that's fine. However, if a user is like me and runs many of their PCs 24/7 doing Folding@Home, I like to keep it under 70% (for both heat and efficiency reasons).

However, as long as the unit is gold rated or higher, having a slightly larger unit than needed isn't really much of a difference. People having a 650w unit when max output is say around 300w isn't bad at all. However, if someone has say a 1200w unit when they only use 300w, max that's a bit much.

 

[whm1974]

In my opinion, enough to power what is needed.

Although, as long as the unit is big enough to keep the max load percentage around 80% of the unit's total output, that's fine. However, if a user is like me and runs many of their PCs 24/7 doing Folding@Home, I like to keep it under 70% (for both heat and efficiency reasons).

However, as long as the unit is gold rated or higher, having a slightly larger unit than needed isn't really much of a difference. People having a 650w unit when max output is say around 300w isn't bad at all. However, if someone has say a 1200w unit when they only use 300w, max that's a bit much.

Yeah aside from rare use cases PSUs with wattage that high are pointless.

 

[UsandThem]

Yeah aside from rare use cases PSUs with wattage that high are pointless.

Yeah, outside of multi-GPU miners, and people who aren't @Markfw who are not running multiple high-end Nvidia GPUs and prosumer CPUs like Threadrippers, the rest of us mortals don't need anywhere near that kind of juice.

 

[Markfw]

Yeah, outside of multi-GPU miners, and people who aren't @Markfw who are not running multiple high-end Nvidia GPUs and prosumer CPUs like Threadrippers, the rest of us mortals don't need anywhere near that kind of juice.

When you run enough power like me ($600 a month electricity bill with really cheap power) then high efficiency is required. Also, if your PSU's run over 80% load, and you run then 24/6/365 then your chance of burning them out is really high. If you frequent the DC forum, I am not the only crazy out there, I just have more computers, and use more electricity.

BTW, its all to try and cure cancer, of which I had. It cost me (so far) my bladder, prostate, my hearing, and my balence, not to mention the quality of life caused from having a bag to empty all the time, and one to live with at night,

One last thing... I only use platinum or titanium PSU's nowadays. Maybe once in a while, gold. And mostly all Corsair. Started on Seasonic a while ago, and EVGA.

 

[whm1974]

When you run enough power like me ($600 a month electricity bill with really cheap power) then high efficiency is required. Also, if your PSU's run over 80% load, and you run then 24/6/365 then your chance of burning them out is really high. If you frequent the DC forum, I am not the only crazy out there, I just have more computers, and use more electricity.

BTW, its all to try and cure cancer, of which I had. It cost me (so far) my bladder, prostate, my hearing, and my balence, not to mention the quality of life caused from having a bag to empty all the time, and one to live with at night,

One last thing... I only use platinum or titanium PSU's nowadays. Maybe once in a while, gold. And mostly all Corsair. Started on Seasonic a while ago, and EVGA.

I hope you don't get swatted due the higher power usage then what the rest of your 'hood is using. I have heard of large families having that happen to them because their power consumption was the highest on their block.

 

[Markfw]

I hope you don't get swatted due the higher power usage then what the rest of your 'hood is using. I have heard of large families having that happen to them because their power consumption was the highest on their block.

swatted ? seriously, not sure what that means, but I have been doing this for 16 years, except the last 2-3 years my usage has doubled, then tripled.

To stay on-topic, my points have been that 1) always get way more than you need to keep the PSU cool under the worst of circumstances, and 2) use high efficiency, as it saves money, and is better quality and will last longer, and 3) way less chance of dying. A PSU going out can take the whole system with it, sometimes thousands of dollars.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I hope you don't get swatted due the higher power usage then what the rest of your 'hood is using. I have heard of large families having that happen to them because their power consumption was the highest on their block.

I worry about that sometimes, mining, I use a bit of power, and my apt gets really warm. They fly drones over the neighborhood (LE), so I presume they're looking for "grow houses", and the like.

There has been some small evidence that "someone" has been in my apt., when I'm not there, on several occasions.

Edit: And yes, I've "Gone Gold" (80Plus Gold) for my PSUs for my main rigs. Someday, maybe I'll go Titanium or Platinum, if I assemble a multi-GPU (well, more then two, like 6-8 GPU) standalone mining rig.

Right now, I just have 2, sometimes 3, PCs, each with one or two video cards, nothing really major, mining. I have a couple more PCs currently unused, that I can plug into another circuit here, and they each have two video card slots, so I could run 9 GPUs total, if I wanted to.

 

[UsandThem]

When you run enough power like me ($600 a month electricity bill with really cheap power) then high efficiency is required. Also, if your PSU's run over 80% load, and you run then 24/6/365 then your chance of burning them out is really high. If you frequent the DC forum, I am not the only crazy out there, I just have more computers, and use more electricity.

BTW, its all to try and cure cancer, of which I had. It cost me (so far) my bladder, prostate, my hearing, and my balence, not to mention the quality of life caused from having a bag to empty all the time, and one to live with at night,

While I'm nowhere near your level, I'm with you on F@H.

And I agree that PCs that run 24/7 like Folding PCs typically do, I would never run a sustained load of 80%+ on the PSU. I just used you as an example of someone who uses (and needs) large PSUs because of your hardware. I wasn't insulting you or anything, but you have the biggest fleet of hardware here in the DC forum, so you get used as the example of a "power user".

I just give people a hard time who think they need a 1200w PSU for "future proofing" their PC, when all they run is a CPU like an Intel 8700k and one RTX 2070 GPU. And you are definitely not in that group......at all.

 

[VirtualLarry]

And I agree that PCs that run 24/7 like Folding PCs typically do, I would never run a sustained load of 80%+ on the PSU. I just used you as an example of someone who uses (and needs) large PSUs because of your hardware. I wasn't insulting you or anything, but you have the biggest fleet of hardware here in the DC forum, so you get used as the example of a "power user".

I agree. I feel that my EVGA G1+ 650W 80Plus Gold I have on my main rig(s), each with two RX 570 cards, and a Ryzen R5 1600, is almost under-powered. I hit 460W or 490W at the wall, with the thing running full tilt mining. (*Which, incidentally, is a much higher load than I get Folding using default client settings on the same hardware. Like 390W.)

 

[Gt403cyl]

swatted ? seriously, not sure what that means, but I have been doing this for 16 years, except the last 2-3 years my usage has doubled, then tripled.

To stay on-topic, my points have been that 1) always get way more than you need to keep the PSU cool under the worst of circumstances, and 2) use high efficiency, as it saves money, and is better quality and will last longer, and 3) way less chance of dying. A PSU going out can take the whole system with it, sometimes thousands of dollars.

My basic rule is dependant on use...
If it’s a high end build used for gaming for extended periods or editing or any relatively high load task gold minimum, if it’s a PC that will be off more than it’s on then Bronze is fine.

As for wattage, well again it depends, call me old but my rule of thumb for higher end builds is estimate the total draw and roughly double it.

My main PC draws 500w (491w) from the wall with the 6700k and 980Ti OC’ed and both under 100% load, it has an AX860i from Corsair so as far as effeciency goes I’m right in the sweetspot for that model.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

My basic rule is dependant on use...
If it’s a high end build used for gaming for extended periods or editing or any relatively high load task gold minimum, if it’s a PC that will be off more than it’s on then Bronze is fine.

As for wattage, well again it depends, call me old but my rule of thumb for higher end builds is estimate the total draw and roughly double it.

My main PC draws 500w (491w) from the wall with the 6700k and 980Ti OC’ed and both under 100% load, it has an AX860i from Corsair so as far as effeciency goes I’m right in the sweetspot for that model.

I've seen spendthrift enthusiasts come and go on the forums. In earlier days of the '90s, I built budget systems that worked for what I wanted. However, after 2005, I coveted performance more and more, with simply a fascination and active interest in overclocking. In those earlier days, I was naïve enough to think a cheap $35 Allied PSU was sufficient. Maybe 3 or 4 years down the road, you learn that it isn't.

The fundamental rule as some might argue for building systems begins with the PSU: don't use a cheapie, and choose one that is reliable, has a nice long warranty period, and offers clean and stable power. Read some reviews for some 750W PSUs of Bronze through Titanium quality rating, and you'll get an idea about the allowable variations in power supplied through the three voltage rails and other factors.

There are a few good manufacturers of PSUs, and I don't mean to suggest that there are "only a few", but certain names stand out, and many units coming from companies like Turbo Power and Cooling, Corsair and Coolermaster are really re-badged units manufactured by a different entity.

Seasonic has a reputation both for manufacturing units marketed under a re-badged name, and for units under Seasonic's own label.

I don't choose Seasonic because it is the only good PSU manufacturer, but it saves me a lot of trouble as I simply commit to using them as a long-term customer.

And looking at the prices of Seasonic offerings, you can sometimes get one for as little as $70 on sale; you can get a decent one for just over $100. But I've seen Gold Rated X-Series units die after five years, and I decided that it was worth another $60 to buy a Titanium PRIME or Ultra. Here, I'm discussing units rated at between 500W and 750W. These wattage ratings are an overstatement for cheap units that tout them, but they are also an understatement for a high-quality PSU. For instance, one XFX rebadged Seasonic 750W subjected to lab tests for a performance review was able to sustain a power draw in excess of 900W for more than an hour.

Yesterday, a computer seemingly died with an X-Series Gold 650W. It could've been any of a few components, but the symptoms pointed first to the PSU. I luckily had a Titanium PRIME RMA replacement for a unit that was more or less DOA when I first attempted to use it. I'd put it away in storage. I was happier than a pig in s*** for the little time it took to make the swap, successfully fire up the machine, and be good to go.

As for the DOA phenomenon, there's always a statistical chance of it even with good quality control. The 8 to 12 year warranties on these PSUs also assures a reliable RMA response. So my RMA experience is indicative of very little or nothing.

As for choosing the wattage, I carefully calculate the maximum draw under the most extreme conditions. This would mean expectations for an overclocked setting and the full-out power draw of your target graphics card. I'll then choose a PSU that exceeds that amount by 100W to 150W, and I've never been wrong in doing so. You never run stress-tests for overclocking all the time; gaming doesn't demand nearly that much stress; and it is most unlikely that -- other things added to the CPU draw -- you'll exceed the rated limit.

 

[Gt403cyl]

I've seen spendthrift enthusiasts come and go on the forums. In earlier days of the '90s, I built budget systems that worked for what I wanted. However, after 2005, I coveted performance more and more, with simply a fascination and active interest in overclocking. In those earlier days, I was naïve enough to think a cheap $35 Allied PSU was sufficient. Maybe 3 or 4 years down the road, you learn that it isn't.

The fundamental rule as some might argue for building systems begins with the PSU: don't use a cheapie, and choose one that is reliable, has a nice long warranty period, and offers clean and stable power. Read some reviews for some 750W PSUs of Bronze through Titanium quality rating, and you'll get an idea about the allowable variations in power supplied through the three voltage rails and other factors.

There are a few good manufacturers of PSUs, and I don't mean to suggest that there are "only a few", but certain names stand out, and many units coming from companies like Turbo Power and Cooling, Corsair and Coolermaster are really re-badged units manufactured by a different entity.

Seasonic has a reputation both for manufacturing units marketed under a re-badged name, and for units under Seasonic's own label.

I don't choose Seasonic because it is the only good PSU manufacturer, but it saves me a lot of trouble as I simply commit to using them as a long-term customer.

And looking at the prices of Seasonic offerings, you can sometimes get one for as little as $70 on sale; you can get a decent one for just over $100. But I've seen Gold Rated X-Series units die after five years, and I decided that it was worth another $60 to buy a Titanium PRIME or Ultra.

Yesterday, a computer seemingly died with an X-Series Gold 650W. It could've been any of a few components, but the symptoms pointed first to the PSU. I luckily had a Titanium PRIME RMA replacement for a unit that was more or less DOA when I first attempted to use it. I'd put it away in storage. I was happier than a pig in s*** for the little time it took to make the swap, successfully fire up the machine, and be good to go.

As for the DOA phenomenon, there's always a statistical chance of it even with good quality control. The 8 to 12 year warranties on these PSUs also assures a reliable RMA response. So my RMA experience is indicative of very little or nothing.

I hope I’m taking this wrong.... I know that “cheap” PSU’s are not good, and well aware FSP and others are the OEMs for the rebranded models, my point was only about the ratings (80+) regardles of rating I only recommend quality units.

For instance my AX860i is a Flextronics PSU, really good quality unit, overpriced maybe but high quality.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I hope I’m taking this wrong.... I know that “cheap” PSU’s are not good, and well aware FSP and others are the OEMs for the rebranded models, my point was only about the ratings (80+) regardles of rating I only recommend quality units.

For instance my AX860i is a Flextronics PSU, really good quality unit, overpriced maybe but high quality.

No argument with you there. I departed from my brand-name-rule-of-thumb a few years back, and picked up a well-rated Rosewill at the Egg. It continues to function well for the system it's in and its designated usage.

Some years back, "rules of thumb" for power-supply selection were published in Maximum PC. One thing mentioned was weight in lbs. -- explained as a vague indicator as to the durability and quality of the unit. Another thing was the warranty-period.

For warranty-period, a lot of components have short warranty periods precisely because they're not likely to fail at all in that time, and any units that do so will fail early. So, for instance, a processor with a three-year warranty can't be judged that way, and can probably last 10 years or longer.

But PSUs are warrantied on a calculation of how long they will last, and the company's assessment that they can sustain the RMA costs for the statistical expectation of units returned in one, two, three, etc. years.

Truth be told, I've never tried a Bronze unit, but I started purchasing Silver units initially. Then, Gold and now Platinum or "Titanium". IF I mostly only need 650W units, I'd just as well spend the money on more efficiency and reliability. The difference in price across that range is not a major factor, or would not be unless I were hypothetically building several of the same machines to sell or allocate across a fam-damn-ily of users who don't push the edge of any stress envelope.

 

[Gt403cyl]

There are a lot of good quality bronze PSUs out there, too many people look at the rating alone as an indicator of quality which just isn’t the case, although generally speaking, plat/Ti rated units are good quality due to the components which they need to be to obtain the better efficiency.

However for example the EVGA Supernova NEX 650w/750w was known for poor voltage ripple and the gold efficiency rating was either just barely met or failed (can’t remember completely right now) when there were bronze rating units that were cheaper and better quality.

So it’s just not as simple as looking at the rating or even brand for that matter.

 

[whm1974]

No argument with you there. I departed from my brand-name-rule-of-thumb a few years back, and picked up a well-rated Rosewill at the Egg. It continues to function well for the system it's in and its designated usage.

Some years back, "rules of thumb" for power-supply selection were published in Maximum PC. One thing mentioned was weight in lbs. -- explained as a vague indicator as to the durability and quality of the unit. Another thing was the warranty-period.

I remember that article. Well given advice at the time to.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

There are a lot of good quality bronze PSUs out there, too many people look at the rating alone as an indicator of quality which just isn’t the case, although generally speaking, plat/Ti rated units are good quality due to the components which they need to be to obtain the better efficiency.

However for example the EVGA Supernova NEX 650w/750w was known for poor voltage ripple and the gold efficiency rating was either just barely met or failed (can’t remember completely right now) when there were bronze rating units that were cheaper and better quality.

So it’s just not as simple as looking at the rating or even brand for that matter.

That's why I wouldn't purchase a PSU, or purchase from a model-line of PSUs, until finding a couple comparison reviews. I've found them at the Tech-Report website. Xbitlabs has been shut down, or so a post at AnandTech noted a year ago. Maybe it was Guru3D or some site with a similar name, but there was a review site that reviewed PSUs either exclusively or comprehensively.

If you find reviews with lab test results in graphs of voltage ripple and other aspects, those should tell you enough. Does the PSU sustain the 12V spec, for instance, within a +/- 2% range? Those are things you want to know.

I remember that article. Well given advice at the time to.

I'll be candid -- I haven't been too visible on the tech forums here for more than a year, spending more time at "Politics and News" and recently in "Garage". Knowledge gathered over ten or more years can become stale. There are always new developments.

I wouldn't even be posting on "Power Supplies" today if I didn't have a critical household machine go down the other day -- now certifiably as a result of PSU failure.

 

[BUTCH1]

Thinking about a new PSU, my rig will on occasion give a BSOD on boot, maybe once a week, I've gotten 10 years out of an Antec earthwatts 450 so I'd say I got my $$'s worth!.